ASTI OctNov Action *Post 1 for usual plea for restraint Especially New Posters *

deiseindublin

Can't see that Gov can pull pay from individual teachers if it's the BOMs that choose to close schools.

coillsaille

If the issue of being paid (for days schools are closed by SnS) depends on us being in school and available to teach then I would say BOMs would facilitate that by opening the school but telling students to stay at home. No BOM would want to be seen in any way to be facilitating wage docking by the Dept on their teachers.
So if all it takes to ensure we are paid is to be in school then it's not a problem. But if SnS is determined to be contractual duties then the DES could well attack pay regardless.

maude6868

With regards to s&s situation, what would happen to the teachers who don't do it and are paying to not do it? They are not withdrawing s&s duties so I assume they can't be docked pay.

coillsaille

maude6868 wrote: »

With regards to s&s situation, what would happen to the teachers who don't do it and are paying to not do it? They are not withdrawing s&s duties so I assume they can't be docked pay.

It's still to be confirmed that they actually can dock the pay of even those in SnS so no way could they dock those not in it - no legal grounds for doing so.

evolving_doors

man_no_plan wrote: »

Surely theyd be expected to attend work even if the kids aren't in?

Maybe just write a letter to say you are willing and able to show up for work!...

jonseyblub

There was a management meeting yesterday (ACCS I think) and it was reemphasised by the Dept that teachers will not be paid if schools need to close due to S&S withdrawal. I would love to hear from the ASTI the legalities of this.

solerina

jonseyblub wrote: »

There was a management meeting yesterday (ACCS I think) and it was reemphasised by the Dept that teachers will not be paid if schools need to close due to S&S withdrawal. I would love to hear from the ASTI the legalities of this.

Surely that's illegal, we are available to do what we are being paid to do, just unavailable to work for free doing S&S. BOM here is supposed to have agreed to close the school so we won't be getting paid if this happens

coillsaille

solerina wrote: »

Surely that's illegal, we are available to do what we are being paid to do, just unavailable to work for free doing S&S. BOM here is supposed to have agreed to close the school so we won't be getting paid if this happens

If SnS is now part of our contracts, and I fear it is, then they could get away with it.
If your BOM has agreed to close the school and getting paid turns out to depend on ye being in school, then it will be a frosty relationship between the BOM and the staff for many years to come.

solerina

coillsaille wrote: »

If SnS is now part of our contracts, and I fear it is, then they could get away with it.
If your BOM has agreed to close the school and getting paid turns out to depend on ye being in school, then it will be a frosty relationship between the BOM and the staff for many years to come.

Surely it was part of our contract due to agreements entered into... i.e. Haddington Road, but we didn't enter Landsdown road so maybe it isn't part of our contract ???
Principal said as he is t able to get involved as he is also ASTI that school will close, if this is the case the ASTI must allow management to co operate to organise S&S.

man_no_plan

solerina wrote: »

Surely it was part of our contract due to agreements entered into... i.e. Haddington Road, but we didn't enter Landsdown road so maybe it isn't part of our contract ???
Principal said as he is t able to get involved as he is also ASTI that school will close, if this is the case the ASTI must allow management to co operate to organise S&S.

I don't have the agreement to hand but it States that the s/s will be part of the teaching contract with the duties to be performed indefinitely.

deiseindublin

Why must they? Why should/would ASTI management cooperate? I'd feel very let down by my union if I was ASTI management and union basically told me that I had permission to sort out the mess in my school, therefore diluting effectiveness of withdrawal of S&S.

MrJones1973

As far as I know Richard boot boy Bruton has not stated for certain he wont pay us if school close for s and s. Lets just wait and see. There are pros and cons to him doing that. Pro he forces an all out shut down in many schools and thus squeezes ASTI but the flip side is pretty much much the same-he creates more militancy.

For both sides to save face we need to shut down Nov 7th because if either side blinks pre Nov 7th- then it shows weakness.

May god have mercy on our souls:eek:

Benicetomonty

S and S is part of our contracts as of HR. Govt will probably get away with not paying us. Which means schools opening after midterm is v unlikely as things stand. Also reinstatement of the opt in opt out scheme we had before HR is being sought so I dont even think restoration of payment will be enough at this point. Dont see how a lengthy strike will be avoided tbh, but hostility towards us will be redirected towards the govt at some point. How long will we last becomes the q!

coillsaille

I have heard now that the JMB wants to find out if the Dept. intends to dock the pay even if teachers are in school. If that is confirmed then JMB will advise BOMs not to open schools for staff.

judeboy101

coillsaille wrote: »

I have heard now that the JMB wants to find out if the Dept. intends to dock the pay even if teachers are in school. If that is confirmed then JMB will advise BOMs not to open schools for staff.

Asti bom members must vote to keep schools open and have it on the record that they are not responsible for a lockout. Put pressure on parents reps on board and remind the board that denying workers access to their place of work, all in the centenary year of 1916.

feardeas

The ASTI would want to clarify this quickly. We can not head into mid term not knowing if we are entering into a prolonged period of not being paid.

Also surely those who opted out, not me, after HR can not be unpaid as a result of not performing duties that they have essentially paid money not to do over the last three years.

Please tell us that there's a lawyer or two advising the union or are we being led over a cliff by a gang of pied pipers.

coillsaille

Latest I've heard is that Standing Committee decided formal communication was to be made to the Department that they expect opt-out money to discontinue to be deducted as of November 7th as this deduction is part of the S&S scheme and we are withdrawing from it from this date.

Also heard that the docking of pay will apply to all ASTI members, including the opt-outs as they are considered party to the union's decision to withdraw. But I've yet to hear any official confirmation that the DES can legally do this.

feardeas

Mrwhite1970 wrote:

Please don't take offense but what you wrote is quite vague ?! I'm not sure what your point is ? We will go out for a bit and then just simply go back in after a week? The pat king dominated standing committee majority is dead .A lock out might ensue but don't you think that will be bad publicity for the government ? I'm not optimistic about asti membership holding the line but they have to be balloted on any new Deal and I can't see current construction of standing committee putting a tweak to members. . I know the numbers If the government decided not to pay that's a huge escalation and does the government really want schools shut for 2-3 weeks ?

I think the situation is vague TBH. No offence taken at all. I think that not paying us if we turn up is fraught with difficulty and will lead to huge problems for them.

I'd imagine you and I are in disagreement on the vote in fairness. I don't know much about the inner workings of ASTI but I get a sinking feeling when our friends are Paul Murphy and Co. Looking at some of the fightback group postings on fb I think they may be a bit like him and I saw him in action in UCD in the noughties. Little has changed.

Anyway life is short and I'm heading away from this. What will come will come now. Die is case I reckon.

judeboy101

feardeas wrote: »

The ASTI would want to clarify this quickly. We can not head into mid term not knowing if we are entering into a prolonged period of not being paid.

Also surely those who opted out, not me, after HR can not be unpaid as a result of not performing duties that they have essentially paid money not to do over the last three years.

Please tell us that there's a lawyer or two advising the union or are we being led over a cliff by a gang of pied pipers.

Under HR all teachers signed up to S&s as part of their duties in perpetuity. (opt out teachers also signed up to s&s but were allowed to pay a levy not to do it). By not not accepting LR and voting to not do s&s all teachers are in breach of contract. The dept do not have to pay us (opt in or opt out). Now on the flip side the dept broke the agreement first but they can legally dock us. If a deal isn't done by Monday 7th we will be licked out by our employers, ironically there are over 350 employers involved and nearly 20000 staff. The 1913 lockout had 20000 staff and 300 employers.

man_no_plan

deiseindublin wrote: »

Why must they? Why should/would ASTI management cooperate? I'd feel very let down by my union if I was ASTI management and union basically told me that I had permission to sort out the mess in my school, therefore diluting effectiveness of withdrawal of S&S.

In fairness the principals didn't make this mess so they shouldn't have to sort it out. When its all said and done the ASTI boys will still be up in HQ but principal and teacher members will still have to work side by side. The toxic effect this would have is not worth it.

When we were all on the roadside for JC dispute a number of staff who are non union went sick or signed a form to say they could work. Everyone knows who the are. They are often heard to moan about this or that but get very little ear from colleagues, you're either part of the team or you're not.

maude6868

Surely the opt out payments must be refunded since the date we refused to sign up to LRA because it was only then contract was breached.

maude6868

Another thing, what's to stop teachers applying for the supervising positions and get paid 38 euro a day. After all we are the best people for the job.

political analyst

How does the directive prevent principals who are ASTI members from drawing up rotas for external supervisors? After all, principals would, if their union let them, draw up the rotas in their offices. The fact that drawing up the rota is a paper exercise means that it is not supervision or substitution per se.

judeboy101

Tui might be wobbling on that fence

http://www.rte.ie/news/budget-2017/2016/1021/825719-teachers-union-of-ireland/

MrJones1973

Look lets wait and see. Great news from TUI. I would expect department to show its hand early next week . Even if the likes of non asti principals decide to go with contingency plans they probably can't open their schools Nov 7.-well most. Would not be ready. Given their ineptness I'd say department making it up as they go along

deiseindublin

man_no_plan wrote: »

In fairness the principals didn't make this mess so they shouldn't have to sort it out.

That was my point, why should they have to sort it out.

man_no_plan

deiseindublin wrote: »

That was my point, why should they have to sort it out.

I know that's why I agreed with you.

man_no_plan

judeboy101 wrote: »

Tui might be wobbling on that fence

http://www.rte.ie/news/budget-2017/2016/1021/825719-teachers-union-of-ireland/

I would have thought that the TUI are very clearly off the fence?

deiseindublin

Sorry, thought you'd misunderstood my initial post!

Will be interesting to see how this all pans out, bit of me feels like it's pointless looking for any daily titbits and just tune in for final update.

man_no_plan

deiseindublin wrote: »

Sorry, thought you'd misunderstood my initial post!

Will be interesting to see how this all pans out, bit of me feels like it's pointless looking for any daily titbits and just tune in for final update.

I wouldn't expected anything until this day next week at least.