ASTI OctNov Action *Post 1 for usual plea for restraint Especially New Posters *

political analyst

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Surely bringing in external employees during any dispute is crossing a picket?

But withdrawing from S&S is not a strike and thus does not involve picketing. A strike itself is a different matter because it means that the school is close.d

evolving_doors

km79 wrote: »

what about non union members or TUI in joint schools ?
will they have to continue on with S and S

Well TUI aren't working for free at the moment! So they get paid for their work.

Non union.... I honestly just don't know.

evolving_doors

political analyst wrote: »

But withdrawing from S&S is not a strike and thus does not involve picketing. A strike itself is a different matter because it means that the school is close.d

I think you're correct.

deiseindublin

Great post on Fightbacks page an hour ago:

We've received this guest post. How many branches or members feel the same?

Having heard the Minister this morning effectively ask the ASTI to ask its members to continue to do S&S for 6-7 weeks even if we vote yes to industrial action, several members of the Dublin South Central Branch have sent this to CEC.

We wish to make it known to CEC that we do not support facilitating the government plans to undermine our industrial action by paying other people to do the work that they refuse to pay us to do.

We fulfilled the conditions of both Croke Park and Haddington Road. We accepted the added unpaid workload during the financial crisis on the understanding that payment would be restored when this agreement came to an end.

At no time was it a condition of this restoration that we sign up to another agreement. If the government feel that they have the right to move the goalposts, then they have to deal with the consequences of that move.

It is also worthy of note that principals are having a nightmare trying to get substitute teachers due in part to the length of time it is currently taking to be Garda vetted. It would add insult to injury that fast tracking would be allowed to facilitate government plans to bring in paid supervisors.

Jaggo

Non teacher here.
Can i ask you why no one is discussing a regional wage structure similar to the london allowance (30%) or the pay scales in every other European country.

Surely the price of accommodation in dublin v rural means that the dublin teachers are on a significantly smaller salary then those in the country. A 600 euro per month difference in rent prices, equals 7200 per year or around 15000 less per year after tax.

Why is this not an issue?

political analyst

deiseindublin wrote: »

Great post on Fightbacks page an hour ago:

The Minister asking ASTI members to continue doing S&S for 6 to 7 weeks even if they vote to withdraw from it conflicts with the Irish Times article which I linked in post 87 on the following page and which says that vetting usually takes 3 weeks but can be fast-tracked.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=101212955

deiseindublin

Yeah, does for sure. I heard him on the radio this morning and I was roaring at it. Honestly, the cheek of them to ask ASTI voters to hold out and wait a while. As Ed Byrne said later, this was signed in a year ago, they've had plenty of time to sort out their contingency plans.

How many IR disputes would be in any way effective if you waited until it was convenient for opposition? Tbh, it was the first time that I thought DES is panicking, up to this I was wondering who would blink first.

Edited to add that as I said I was listening to him this morning but I never heard him say 6/7 weeks, not sure if that's a quote or a guess at the time they want facilitated, maybe it's background meetings. House was morning mania at the time though so I could have missed it.

griffzinho

Jaggo wrote: »

Non teacher here.
Can i ask you why no one is discussing a regional wage structure similar to the london allowance (30%) or the pay scales in every other European country.

Surely the price of accommodation in dublin v rural means that the dublin teachers are on a significantly smaller salary then those in the country. A 600 euro per month difference in rent prices, equals 7200 per year or around 15000 less per year after tax.

Why is this not an issue?

Great point. Should be a major issue.

maude6868

I still want to know if s&s is withdrawn and ASTI teachers are not doing it will they be deducted 1700 euro at source like those who opted out. If not, it creates yet another tier of pay discrimination with one cohort of ASTI members paying 1700 to NOT do a job that others are not doing without penalty.

km79

maude6868 wrote: »

I still want to know if s&s is withdrawn and ASTI teachers are not doing it will they be deducted 1700 euro at source like those who opted out. If not, it creates yet another tier of pay discrimination with one cohort of ASTI members paying 1700 to NOT do a job that others are not doing without penalty.

I would assume they would at least wait a few weeks before deducting at source otherwise they will never get those teachers back when it is sorted!
There are MANY MANY teachers who would love to have had the CHOICE to opt out but didn't .

coillsaille

maude6868 wrote: »

I still want to know if s&s is withdrawn and ASTI teachers are not doing it will they be deducted 1700 euro at source like those who opted out. If not, it creates yet another tier of pay discrimination with one cohort of ASTI members paying 1700 to NOT do a job that others are not doing without penalty.

According to one media report I read, the DES said if schools had to close due to withdrawal of SnS then teachers would not be paid for those days as SnS is now part of teachers' contractual duties. But this was in the media so no guarantee that it's accurate.
If it did come about though, it would be interesting regarding those who have opted out, as SnS is not part of their contracts. So surely those teachers would still have to be paid if schools were closed by the withdrawal.

political analyst

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/asti-members-seek-confidence-building-measures-424786.html

maude6868

coillsaille wrote: »

According to one media report I read, the DES said if schools had to close due to withdrawal of SnS then teachers would not be paid for those days as SnS is now part of teachers' contractual duties. But this was in the media so no guarantee that it's accurate.
If it did come about though, it would be interesting regarding those who have opted out, as SnS is not part of their contracts. So surely those teachers would still have to be paid if schools were closed by the withdrawal.

But those who opted out were never paid anyway, they were penalised and have to pay 1700 for not doing it. Oh I don't know, it's just a godalmighty mess.

coillsaille

maude6868 wrote: »

But those who opted out were never paid anyway, they were penalised and have to pay 1700 for not doing it. Oh I don't know, it's just a godalmighty mess.

Yes, but separate to the opt out deduction at source, the report I read was saying ASTI members wouldn't get paid their salary for any days schools are closed due to SnS withdrawal, as they are now contracted for SnS duties. But opt out people aren't contracted for it so can't see how the DES could not pay them in that situation.
But you are right, it's a mess and going to get messier. Of course it wouldn't be a mess if the DES had stuck to the agreement and given us the money for work we were willing to keep doing - LRA or no LRA. These contingency SnS arrangements are going to make it much messier and will ultimately cost the taxpayer a lot more than the payments we were promised.

evolving_doors

Jaggo wrote: »

Non teacher here.
Can i ask you why no one is discussing a regional wage structure similar to the london allowance (30%) or the pay scales in every other European country.

Surely the price of accommodation in dublin v rural means that the dublin teachers are on a significantly smaller salary then those in the country. A 600 euro per month difference in rent prices, equals 7200 per year or around 15000 less per year after tax.

Why is this not an issue?

No shortage of getting teachers, they'd work for free just to get some experience.

evolving_doors

maude6868 wrote: »

I still want to know if s&s is withdrawn and ASTI teachers are not doing it will they be deducted 1700 euro at source like those who opted out. If not, it creates yet another tier of pay discrimination with one cohort of ASTI members paying 1700 to NOT do a job that others are not doing without penalty.

ASTI were supposed to be getting paid extra to do it. Didn't get paid... So not doing it.

evolving_doors

coillsaille wrote: »

According to one media report I read, the DES said if schools had to close due to withdrawal of SnS then teachers would not be paid for those days as SnS is now part of teachers' contractual duties. But this was in the media so no guarantee that it's accurate.
If it did come about though, it would be interesting regarding those who have opted out, as SnS is not part of their contracts. So surely those teachers would still have to be paid if schools were closed by the withdrawal.

Contract?
The deal was if teachers did it for two years they'd get paid? What happened that ' contract'?

maude6868

I understand that but by not doing it won't they have to be penalised by 1700 like those who already don't do it.

km79

maude6868 wrote: »

I understand that but by not doing it won't they have to be penalised by 1700 like those who already don't do it.

If they don't do if forever yes
You are probably talking a couple of weeks max !
As I said before a LOT of people doing it would love to have had the CHOICE not to have been doing it last few years

Icsics

maude6868 wrote: »

I still want to know if s&s is withdrawn and ASTI teachers are not doing it will they be deducted 1700 euro at source like those who opted out. If not, it creates yet another tier of pay discrimination with one cohort of ASTI members paying 1700 to NOT do a job that others are not doing without penalty.

Yes, would like to know this too. Surely if we're all not doing it, all will be deducted. But like a lot of issues related to this dispute, nobody will know.

maude6868

Well that's what would seem logical to me, otherwise those who pay the 1700 will be very disgruntled at having to pay when their colleagues are not doing it and not penalised. I know many teachers would have loved to have had the option to opt out but for those who never did s&s at all and then had to pay for the pleasure of not doing it was ludricous. Is there any other job where employees pay to not do an aspect of it? I just feel the ASTI should clarify what will happen with regards the 1700 if s&s is withdrawn. If teachers are not doing it and not penalised then those who opted out should have their 1700 restored, can't see that happening so what will happen?

gaiscioch

Surely if the Department of Education brought in some randomers without Garda vetting to "supervise" children it would be in breach of child protection guidelines, and giving these outsiders access to the personal details of students could also be in breach of data protection legislation? Furthermore, I trust this government would not let them into any school unless they've done about 10 of those evidently really, really essential Croke Park Hours on child protection and data protection?

By the way, and accepting political analyst's point that this is probably not technically a "strike", I know one person who broke a strike - a Bank of Ireland one about 20 years ago. She was transferred from that branch very shortly after the strike was settled but what she had done followed her to her new BofI job. This country is tiny, and no matter where you go people will know more about you within the first week than you think. Breaking a strike is character defining, and life is far too short.

evolving_doors

maude6868 wrote: »

I understand that but by not doing it won't they have to be penalised by 1700 like those who already don't do it.

Maybe consider the folk who bought out of the game early as 'out'. So comparing to them is moot.
Teachers were promised something for doing it. Govt didnt fulfill that promise so why the threat of a paycut?
If they don't want to cough up then the work won't be done. That was the agreement.

evolving_doors

gaiscioch wrote: »

Surely if the Department of Education brought in some randomers without Garda vetting to "supervise" children it would be in breach of child protection guidelines, and giving these outsiders access to the personal details of students could also be in breach of data protection legislation? Furthermore, I trust this government would not let them into any school unless they've done about 10 of those evidently really, really essential Croke Park Hours on child protection and data protection?

By the way, and accepting political analyst's point that this is probably not technically a "strike", I know one person who broke a strike - a Bank of Ireland one about 20 years ago. She was transferred from that branch very shortly after the strike was settled but what she had done followed her to her new BofI job. This country is tiny, and no matter where you go people will know more about you within the first week than you think. Breaking a strike is character defining, and life is far too short.

Then there's the lady who crossed the picket and now sits on the board of a bank

coillsaille

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Contract?
The deal was if teachers did it for two years they'd get paid? What happened that ' contract'?

I agree wholeheartedly with the principle of your point. But unfortunately what's written into a contract of employment is set in stone, unlike these so called 'agreements' we were lured into which can be changed at the whim of the DES.

evolving_doors

coillsaille wrote: »

I agree wholeheartedly with the principle of your point. But unfortunately what's written into a contract of employment is set in stone, unlike these so called 'agreements' we were lured into which can be changed at the whim of the DES.

Aye but industrial relations are built on agreements and keeping good your promises.
What's to stop the TUI jumping out of LR if the price was right.
Although it would make a hash of the TUI LR if dept. Had to turn around and pay ASTI for S&S!

gaiscioch

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Then there's the lady who crossed the picket and now sits on the board of a bank

Never heard of her (and presume it wasn't Gillian Bowler). This is more like the reaction to crossing the picket that I'm thinking about.

coillsaille

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Aye but industrial relations are built on agreements and keeping good your promises.
What's to stop the TUI jumping out of LR if the price was right.
Although it would make a hash of the TUI LR if dept. Had to turn around and pay ASTI for S&S!

Well the payments for S&S were part of HRA and never had anything to do with LR until the dept decided otherwise, and the TUI are as aware of that as the ASTI. So if the dept had to turn around and pay the ASTI it would be the dept finally honouring the HRA, nothing to do with LR.

deiseindublin

Gebgbegb wrote: »

What's to stop the TUI jumping out of LR if the price was right.

Don't tease me by even saying it! Still not over the blow.

political analyst

gaiscioch wrote: »

Surely if the Department of Education brought in some randomers without Garda vetting to "supervise" children it would be in breach of child protection guidelines, and giving these outsiders access to the personal details of students could also be in breach of data protection legislation? Furthermore, I trust this government would not let them into any school unless they've done about 10 of those evidently really, really essential Croke Park Hours on child protection and data protection?

By the way, and accepting political analyst's point that this is probably not technically a "strike", I know one person who broke a strike - a Bank of Ireland one about 20 years ago. She was transferred from that branch very shortly after the strike was settled but what she had done followed her to her new BofI job. This country is tiny, and no matter where you go people will know more about you within the first week than you think. Breaking a strike is character defining, and life is far too short.

Vetting takes just 3 weeks - even less than that in an emergency (See post 87 on the following page).

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=101212955