ASTI OctNov Action *Post 1 for usual plea for restraint Especially New Posters *

km79

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/1023/826234-gardai-public-sector-pay/

acequion

There isn't much point in going through all this with the hit to the pocket from strikes if we don't achieve something real. A watered down version of the JC and a re- jigging of the CP hours would not be good enough for me.I want real compromise on the JC once and for all and CP hours little more than after school PT/staff meetings. In addition to a guarantee of pay equality and paid S&S.

Anything less would be a farce.

km79

acequion wrote: »

There isn't much point in going through all this with the hit to the pocket from strikes if we don't achieve something real. A watered down version of the JC and a re- jigging of the CP hours would not be good enough for me.I want real compromise on the JC once and for all and CP hours little more than after school PT/staff meetings. In addition to a guarantee of pay equality and paid S&S.

Anything less would be a farce.

Agreed
I hope they know what they are doing

feardeas

km79 wrote:

Agreed I hope they know what they are doing

That is the big question. I'm not sure they do being honest.

feardeas

Gebgbegb wrote:

So, the when... well thursday is going ahead next week regardless. Come back in December with a week of no school. Dept. will fail spectacularly in recruiting folk for S&S.

Gebgbegb wrote:

ASTI go back to work the following week as a 'substantive' agreement will be on the table, and a call-off suspension of a strike pending ballot outcome.

Gebgbegb wrote:

My guess, it will be: /re-jkigging of CP hours /Payment of S&S (probably kick it out to next year to say the Dept. saved money this year! /More concrete timeline for restoration of pay for new entrants.

That could be the best to hope for. Whether it would get through Standing Commitee or CEC I don't know. Not sure which of those decides what goes to ballot.

As for a watered down junior cycle. I don't think that will happen. A colleague mentioned to me that this industrial action will usher in the junior cycle as per the memorandum reached in May 2015. Time will tell.

Eintrachtrob

"They". . "They" are representing their members. Look at the ballot results.

It's difficult to see how all this will pan out. Certainly next Thursday is now a certainty to go ahead, but government is solely focussed on one thing - preventing the Garda strike.

Will there be supervisors in place for November 7th?
Certainly no vetting is going to be complete by then. This does not necessarily mean school closures. It might for some, for others may remain open depending on if their boards of management can come up with ideas.

As November 7th approaches, pressure will come onto the Government to pay the teachers S&S, as previously promised. The ASTI must get out there and make it clear that it is for the Minister to decide whether to pay by November 7th. If he chooses not to, then he's inviting unnecessary confrontation.

Talks are obviously ongoing on other issues - primarily LPT pay & CP. However word from Ed Byrne is that there is no meeting of minds and certainly no sign of any compromise.

Let's make one thing clear - there isn't a snowballs chance in hell of our CP hours being reduced from the 33. DES will not give them up without a fight.

It leaves the teachers and the ASTI a decision to make after the 7 strike days.

Should there be more strike days, more industrial action?
We have to be prepared to make sacrifices financially for this.

political analyst

Eintrachtrob wrote: »

On the 7th November and S&S:

It seems to me that Bruton is getting off scot free on this one. He has known since early July that a vote on this issue was likely. That vote was announed to take place on Sept 3. Why aren't the media asking him about the amount of time he has had since then to arrange alternatives?

The Dept couldn't advertise for jobs for which there was no guarantee that they would be available. Nobody could be certain of the result of the ASTI ballot until the votes had been counted.

political analyst

Eintrachtrob wrote: »

"They". . "They" are representing their members. Look at the ballot results.

It's difficult to see how all this will pan out. Certainly next Thursday is now a certainty to go ahead, but government is solely focussed on one thing - preventing the Garda strike.

Will there be supervisors in place for November 7th?
Certainly no vetting is going to be complete by then. This does not necessarily mean school closures. It might for some, for others may remain open depending on if their boards of management can come up with ideas.

As November 7th approaches, pressure will come onto the Government to pay the teachers S&S, as previously promised. The ASTI must get out there and make it clear that it is for the Minister to decide whether to pay by November 7th. If he chooses not to, then he's inviting unnecessary confrontation.

Talks are obviously ongoing on other issues - primarily LPT pay & CP. However word from Ed Byrne is that there is no meeting of minds and certainly no sign of any compromise.

Let's make one thing clear - there isn't a snowballs chance in hell of our CP hours being reduced from the 33. DES will not give them up without a fight.

It leaves the teachers and the ASTI a decision to make after the 7 strike days.

Should there be more strike days, more industrial action?
We have to be prepared to make sacrifices financially for this.

Instead of going on strike and withdrawing from S&S, why didn't the ASTI just withdraw co-operation with inspectors instead?

km79

political analyst wrote: »

Instead of going on strike and withdrawing from S&S, why didn't the ASTI just withdraw co-operation with inspectors instead?

If that had been the unions response I'd have left immediately !
Absolutely feeble protest that would have been

political analyst

km79 wrote: »

If that had been the unions response I'd have left immediately !
Absolutely feeble protest that would have been

It would inconvenience the Dept.

Eintrachtrob

political analyst wrote: »

Instead of going on strike and withdrawing from S&S, why didn't the ASTI just withdraw co-operation with inspectors instead?

Absolutely pointless doing that. Probably illegal to do as well.

The ASTI are withdrawing from S&S because the Govt said they'd pay for it, and they're not. So that one is a no-brainer.

The strike is mainly for LPTs - For years this injustice over two tier pay has been allowed to carry on. Unless meaningful action is taken then the issue will just be ignored. Strikes are the only way this is going to happen.

km79

political analyst wrote: »

It would inconvenience the Dept.

It would occasionally inconvenice the dept
So you are suggesting that in protest to not getting paid for 2 years of s and s work as agreed we would just continue with it and IF we have an inspection this year we don't cooperate
Would achieve NOTHING
Would be laughable and weak

2xj3hplqgsbkym

Slightly off topic here but just wondering, our BOM has decided to close the school from November 7th on . I will be having a procedure and have a sick cert from 7th to 22nd November.
I presume I still won't be paid for strike days, but just wondering would there be an chance I would be paid for the days school is closed for health and safety reasons ? ( principal says that we definitely won't be paid , not will or non union colleagues and BOM will not organise for school to open) . Have looked on ASTI website , no answer there.
Also I believe 'strike pay' was not paid last time, will it be paid this time and how much is it?
Thanks

judeboy101

Roselyn Harsh Backup wrote: »

Slightly off topic here but just wondering, our BOM has decided to close the school from November 7th on . I will be having a procedure and have a sick cert from 7th to 22nd November.
I presume I still won't be paid for strike days, but just wondering would there be an chance I would be paid for the days school is closed for health and safety reasons ? ( principal says that we definitely won't be paid , not will or non union colleagues and BOM will not organise for school to open) . Have looked on ASTI website , no answer there.
Also I believe 'strike pay' was not paid last time, will it be paid this time and how much is it?
Thanks

It's the principal who is denying you your pay as as far as I am aware, maternity, paternity, parental and sick leave were always paid on strike days unless the principal told the system to mark you as present in school on those days. There is NO money in the ASTI strike fund.

2xj3hplqgsbkym

judeboy101 wrote: »

It's the principal who is denying you your pay as as far as I am aware, maternity, paternity, parental and sick leave were always paid on strike days unless the principal told the system to mark you as present in school on those days. There is NO money in the ASTI strike fund.

She says she has no choice but to close the school as there is no derogation for principals or vice principals to organise alternative s & s .
Have other schools come to other arrangements e.g. Bring in 3rd and 6th years for half days, send kids home if teacher is absent , ask students to leave premises at lunch time?

judeboy101

Roselyn Harsh Backup wrote: »

She says she has no choice but to close the school as there is no derogation for principals or vice principals to organise alternative s & s .
Have other schools come to other arrangements e.g. Bring in 3rd and 6th years for half days, send kids home if teacher is absent , ask students to leave premises at lunch time?

She should put you through the ocls (think that's what it called) system unless she I being a dick about it. That way you get paid. We are having our bom meeting nxt Tues. Our staff told our reps to propose using those days as staff meeting/planning/ cpd and if bom refuses then to remind them that they are as employers locking teachers out and have that recorded on the minutes along with our reps refusal to vote to close the school.

mirrorwall14

I was definitely paid maternity during previous strike days

r93kaey5p2izun

Regarding alternative arrangements such as bringing in 3rd and 6th - unless this could be done using the existing timetable then TUI is advising that such arrangements are unacceptable and are not to be accommodated.

political analyst

Roselyn Harsh Backup wrote: »

She says she has no choice but to close the school as there is no derogation for principals or vice principals to organise alternative s & s .
Have other schools come to other arrangements e.g. Bring in 3rd and 6th years for half days, send kids home if teacher is absent , ask students to leave premises at lunch time?

Surely, if organising S&S takes place in the principal's office then it can't be S&S per se.

Eintrachtrob

Dominik Mammoth Millionaire wrote: »

Regarding alternative arrangements such as bringing in 3rd and 6th - unless this could be done using the existing timetable then TUI is advising that such arrangements are unacceptable and are not to be accommodated.

My understanding is that if a teacher even misses one period (for whatever reason) in a day, then they are considered absent for the ENTIRE day.

One of those barmy no common sense DES rules

ps - it generally is not enforced

judeboy101

Eintrachtrob wrote: »

My understanding is that if a teacher even misses one period (for whatever reason) in a day, then they are considered absent for the ENTIRE day.

One of those barmy no common sense DES rules

ps - it generally is not enforced

Depends on the principal. When we started getting those absence reports from the ocls system a couple of years ago we found out our principal was marking ppl absent if they missed first class due to traffic or if they had to go home sick midday!!!

r93kaey5p2izun

Certainly in the ETB system it is possible to have partial absence recorded. We had some issues with this locally with person filling in on the system but Head Office confirmed it was possible and sorted it out at school level. They were annoyed that school had been doing it incorrectly as they felt this just encouraged full days being taken unnecessarily which impacted negatively on students.

2xj3hplqgsbkym

Eintrachtrob wrote: »

My understanding is that if a teacher even misses one period (for whatever reason) in a day, then they are considered absent for the ENTIRE day.

One of those barmy no common sense DES rules

ps - it generally is not enforced

No that's not true, there is a break down on ASTI website , but basically if you missed 2 periods it's recorded locally but if another day you missed one , then 2 etc.. It is then recorded as one day.

The_Valeyard

judeboy101 wrote: »

Depends on the principal. When we started getting those absence reports from the ocls system a couple of years ago we found out our principal was marking ppl absent if they missed first class due to traffic or if they had to go home sick midday!!!

Well if that's the case, running late, turn your car around and go home.

man_no_plan

judeboy101 wrote: »

She should put you through the ocls (think that's what it called) system unless she I being a dick about it. That way you get paid. We are having our bom meeting nxt Tues. Our staff told our reps to propose using those days as staff meeting/planning/ cpd and if bom refuses then to remind them that they are as employers locking teachers out and have that recorded on the minutes along with our reps refusal to vote to close the school.

It would be very foolish not to turn up for work on the 7th I think regardless of what the BOM says. As you say they can't lock you out.

On the other hand the kind of think you're talking about doing with planning etc would be quite intolerable for many ASTI members. Given that 33 hours a year is so demeaning how would they manage to do that amount in a single week! There's only so much subject planning you can fo , or so they say. (I'm being a bit tongue in cheek here but I think you'll get the point)

As for the princiget deciding not to pay the teacher that's a bit unfair. If they are ASTI and sticking to the directive by not cooperating and so on his can you say that? They will be locked out too if this is what happens. You can't have it both ways.

To the original poster who asked about being paid, if you gave a cert and you are going to be out you should get paid. If the principal is caught up in this and the admin end doesn't get sorted properly it should be possible to have it corrected later.

man_no_plan

political analyst wrote: »

Surely, if organising S&S takes place in the principal's office then it can't be S&S per se.

You are really not in touch with the reality of the situation at all are you.

I think most people probably know my view on the strike hut if you're taking action you're taking action. Not half doing it or only doing it if it suits you. Industrial action is dirty business. The majority if the ASTI think its necessary so that's what's happening, and hopefully for them, know what it takes although I wonder about the stomach for a long battle seeing as many don't know what is going on.

Principal members of asti are part of the action, not part of the problem and they shouldn't be part of a half assed solution, the best decision the ASTI made was to not give a derogation to principal s.

Benicetomonty

My understanding is a lot of vps and principals wrote to the ASTI insisting there was no derogation. At least some of them had the foresight to realise how anything other than total solidarity with fellow ASTI members would lead to a souring of relations for the long term after this is all over.

man_no_plan wrote: »

You are really not in touch with the reality of the situation at all are you.

I think most people probably know my view on the strike hut if you're taking action you're taking action. Not half doing it or only doing it if it suits you. Industrial action is dirty business. The majority if the ASTI think its necessary so that's what's happening, and hopefully for them, know what it takes although I wonder about the stomach for a long battle seeing as many don't know what is going on.

Principal members of asti are part of the action, not part of the problem and they shouldn't be part of a half assed solution, the best decision the ASTI made was to not give a derogation to principal s.

2xj3hplqgsbkym

Any more feedback on what your BOMs have decided to do?

Millem

Will asti be picketing? If so I hope our BOM decide to close the school on thurs under h and s. They are deciding during the week. Some Tui members have said they will cross picket to get paid.....will be terrible for staff relations What positions will SNAs be in if school opens and asti picketing? Ours seem to think they will get paid regardless like last strike?

JD3112

In an all ASTI school, what should we try and convince our BOM do for November 7th onwards?

i.e. keep the school open (but tell the students to stay at home) so that we can turn up for work??

More than likely they'll close the school. With Bruton's threats we could lose our pay but if that's the case, then the BOM are essentially organising/facilitating a lockout.

If the school is kept open (albeit with no students) then we have turned up for work and should be paid??