ASTI OctNov Action *Post 1 for usual plea for restraint Especially New Posters *

km79

Blueshirttwat wrote: »

If a school closed because of snow or failed heating etc. The teachers would not be docked pay. They are expected to make up the lost day in the Feb midterm or Easter holidays. What would the difference be if the school closes on the 7th Nov. Because of a perceived h&s issue.

This crossed my mind too

feardeas

acequion wrote:

And so we should all back down like little sheep should we? Losing a lot of money is indeed worrying. But working for a bunch of tyrants who happen to be the Government of this state would actually worry me more.

I never suggested that. The government are as they are. Unless we've decided to seek to bring them down now, sure it would be another line of attack. We'd hardly notice another one at this stage.

feardeas

jayo76 wrote:

Yeah there are 12 hours which predate CP, 3 PT meetings and 3 half in/ half out staff meetings. No problem for me obviously with those remaining in situ plus the other 3 ptm's for 9 hours and 5 more hours for staff meeting to allow for 8 hours of meetings wholly outside of school time. I suppose I genuinely know it's a forlorn hope but I would really love the other hours outside of these to take account of what teacher contribute in a variety of ways other than sitting in meetings together.

Agree fully and it would engender good will. Also allow those butterflies in planning etc to do it and distribute leadership to them.

political analyst

Blueshirttwat wrote: »

If a school closed because of snow or failed heating etc. The teachers would not be docked pay. They are expected to make up the lost day in the Feb midterm or Easter holidays. What would the difference be if the school closes on the 7th Nov. Because of a perceived h&s issue.

The difference would be that, in the eyes of the Department, the teachers made the closure necessary by withdrawing from S&S.

Eintrachtrob

On the 33 CP hours. . . . When the Teaching Council gets Cosan going. . . Word on the street is that they're demanding 30 hours of CPD per year.

Moody_mona

CP is so much down to the school you're in though. I do cpd, plenty, but my principal refuses to count it towards my hours.

MrJones1973

How many schools have been told to close Nov 7th by bom ?

political analyst

Moody_mona wrote: »

CP is so much down to the school you're in though. I do cpd, plenty, but my principal refuses to count it towards my hours.

Why?

JD3112

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

How many schools have been told to close Nov 7th by bom ?

We've been told most likely we will be closed (vol. school).

I'm trying to come with arguments to put to them to keep it open so that there'll be some chance of getting paid

skippy1977

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

How many schools have been told to close Nov 7th by bom ?

Emergency Board of Management meeting last night. We are closed from the from the 7th if the situation remains as is.

Eintrachtrob

skippy1977 wrote: »

Emergency Board of Management meeting last night. We are closed from the from the 7th if the situation remains as is.

That's the case for virtually every voluntary secondary school.

Some are choosing to bring their teachers in whilst apparently unsure as to whether they will be paid.

coillsaille

Eintrachtrob wrote: »

Some are choosing to bring their teachers in whilst apparently unsure as to whether they will be paid.

Which is what any decent BOM that values a good relationship with staff should do. To close the school to staff on the pretext of a phoney insurance related precaution is an insult to the staff and is facilitating wage docking.

Eintrachtrob

coillsaille wrote: »

Which is what any decent BOM that values a good relationship with staff should do. To close the school to staff on the pretext of a phoney insurance related precaution is an insult to the staff and is facilitating wage docking.

What happens if the teachers don't get paid though regardless of whether they have come in or not?

coillsaille

Eintrachtrob wrote: »

What happens if the teachers don't get paid though regardless of whether they have come in or not?

Well first of all it isn't a lockout, which would have been a very negative turn of events and could well sour the relationship between a staff and their BOM for years .Secondly if our work places are open and we are present in them and available to teach then surely it makes it that bit harder for the DES to justify pay docking.

man_no_plan

political analyst wrote: »

The difference would be that, in the eyes of the Department, the teachers made the closure necessary by withdrawing from S&S.

Yes, they don't make the weather but they are making this situation. Attending at your placevof work and doing your contracted work are two different things.

Did you hit your head political analyst? You're starting to make sense

evolving_doors

coillsaille wrote: »

Which is what any decent BOM that values a good relationship with staff should do. To close the school to staff on the pretext of a phoney insurance related precaution is an insult to the staff and is facilitating wage docking.

I'm trying to understand how a school can 'open' to teachers but yet turn away students though... like, would the teachers have to sneak in a secret door while the front gates are shut.

How would it work? Keep in mind once the student sets foot on the premises and the school is 'open' then there are problems when nobody is in charge.

deiseindublin

This thread always gets confusing when the LPT strike days and S&S withdrawal on 7 November are discussed together.

I'm presuming coillsaille was talking about BOMs closing from 7 November, not strike days.

acequion

jayo76 wrote: »

Yeah there are 12 hours which predate CP, 3 PT meetings and 3 half in/ half out staff meetings. No problem for me obviously with those remaining in situ plus the other 3 ptm's for 9 hours and 5 more hours for staff meeting to allow for 8 hours of meetings wholly outside of school time. I suppose I genuinely know it's a forlorn hope but I would really love the other hours outside of these to take account of what teacher contribute in a variety of ways other than sitting in meetings together.

I've said this countless times and I'll say it again. A lot of teachers don't do extras for a variety of reasons. Some just don't want to. Which is perfectly fine. Some are older and tiring and don't have the energy. Also perfectly fine. Some have their own family commitments. Again perfectly fine. Basically it is always fine to choose not to do voluntary extras.

Now if these voluntary extras become a part of CP what are the chunk of teachers above supposed to do?

Personally I did my time in extra curriculars when I was a young teacher. These days I do little extra except for coaching my students for the orals whenever I have 6th year French. And tbh I do that because I want to. I'd feel differently if someone was looking over my shoulder counting up the hours.

So for those very reasons, if I am forced against my will to do extra I'd prefer something that requires zero effort,such as listening to a boring speaker.

If CP hours have to continue then the fairest is to use them for necessary meetings only. Having "flexible" but forced extra hours will only lead to a lot of resentment and pressure in the long run.

Inspector Coptoor

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I'm trying to understand how a school can 'open' to teachers but yet turn away students though... like, would the teachers have to sneak in a secret door while the front gates are shut.

How would it work? Keep in mind once the student sets foot on the premises and the school is 'open' then there are problems when nobody is in charge.

Parents will be notified that BOM can no loner discharge their duties in relation to the H&S of the students.
The school is closed to students but is open as a place of work to teaching and non teaching staff

man_no_plan

coillsaille wrote: »

Well first of all it isn't a lockout, which would have been a very negative turn of events and could well sour the relationship between a staff and their BOM for years .Secondly if our work places are open and we are present in them and available to teach then surely it makes it that bit harder for the DES to justify pay docking.

Its abit like working for a baker and being willing to mix the ingredients and put the loaves in tins and into the oven but saying I won't take them out. Bottom line no bread.

You can say phoney h&s but anyone who has been in schools for any length of time knows that supervision is of paramount importance and the duty of care of a prudent parent is the standard.

Given the **** that happens when the school is well supervised , how would it be prudent to allow students to attend school when you know there will be no supervision.

As for closing the schools, to be picky about it, why should you be paid to plan all day for a few weeks? Or to drink tea?

student46

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I'm trying to understand how a school can 'open' to teachers but yet turn away students though... like, would the teachers have to sneak in a secret door while the front gates are shut.

How would it work? Keep in mind once the student sets foot on the premises and the school is 'open' then there are problems when nobody is in charge.

Parents will be notified that BOM can no loner discharge their duties in relation to the H&S of the students.
The school is closed to students but is open as a place of work to teaching and non teaching staff

LC student here we are planing to protest at the school, if the school is open we will go to our classroom. Why should you be allowed to get paid to disrupt our education. If you won't teach us we will make sure it locked so you don't get paid.
You are so selfish wanting pay but won't teach.

man_no_plan

student46 wrote: »

LC student here we are planing to protest at the school, if the school is open we will go to our classroom. Why should you be allowed to get paid to disrupt our education. If you won't teach us we will make sure it locked so you don't get paid.
You are so selfish wanting pay but won't teach.

If you go into the school when you are asked to remain at home you are trespassing. Save the bleeding heart stuff for another day your teachers will see you right once this is sorted. You know that and I know that.

amacca

man_no_plan wrote: »

As for closing the schools, to be picky about it, why should you be paid to plan all day for a few weeks? Or to drink tea?

Because its the Govt's fault for not sticking to their own "agreement" that the schools will have to be closed due to withdrawal of s & s

They refused to pay on phoney grounds, teachers objected, the govt have known this was coming for months and still theres an impasse??? Quelle surprise (hope my french doesn't need too much brushing up)

Thats why I think teachers should be paid...the closure on the 7th is entirely the Govts fault and due to their frankly shabby dishonourable behaviour

They should come clean with their hands held high on that one and not look to hang teachers out to dry in the ever so fickle court of public opinion susceptible to the influence of the usual rabble rousers

And I hope if these closures do come to pass that point is repeated ad infinitum so its not lost in the usual whinging and moaning - Govt shouldn't have a leg to stand on if closures happen on the 7th and if they do their agreements have as much value as toilet paper as they simply don't honour their side of the bargain.

spurious

student46 warned earlier today for trolling, now infracted.

man_no_plan

amacca wrote: »

Because its the Govt's fault for not sticking toothier own "agreement" that the school will have to be closed due to withdrawal of s & s

They refused to pay on phoney grounds, teachers objected, the govt have known this was coming for months and still theres an impasse??? Quelle surprise (hope my french doesn't need too much brushing up)

Thats why I think teachers should be paid...the closure on the 7th is entirely the Govts fault and due to their frankly shabby dishonourable behaviour

They should come clean with their hands held high on that one and not look to hang teachers out to dry in the ever so fickle court of public opinion susceptible to the influence of the usual rabble rousers

If you got the s/s outside of LRA would that do it for you?

Inspector Coptoor

student46 wrote: »

LC student here we are planing to protest at the school, if the school is open we will go to our classroom. Why should you be allowed to get paid to disrupt our education. If you won't teach us we will make sure it locked so you don't get paid.
You are so selfish wanting pay but won't teach.

On November 7th, it is not teachers who are shutting the doors on you, it is essentially the government reneging on a deal they made with us.

You will have no right to be in the school on that day.

Stay at home and study.
That would be more beneficial use of your time.

When you leave secondary school next June, teachers will still have their careers in front of them and it's simply unacceptable that we are expected to work S&S for free and that post 2011 teachers are paid up to 20% less.

If you can't see that you are bieng very inwardly myopic.

student46

man_no_plan wrote: »

student46 wrote: »

LC student here we are planing to protest at the school, if the school is open we will go to our classroom. Why should you be allowed to get paid to disrupt our education. If you won't teach us we will make sure it locked so you don't get paid.
You are so selfish wanting pay but won't teach.

If you go into the school when you are asked to remain at home you are trespassing. Save the bleeding heart stuff for another day your teachers will see you right once this is sorted. You know that and I know that.

If we are not allowed in teachers cannot teach and cannot be paid. I would be more on your side if you stood up and said we are not working so don't want to be paid, But atm you just want to hurt students and not get any hurt for yourselves.
Also look for the PR disaster of saying you are in to teach so want pay but call the guards to remove the students you won't teach.

spurious

Please do not feed the trolls.

jayo76

man_no_plan wrote: »

As for closing the schools, to be picky about it, why should you be paid to plan all day for a few weeks? Or to drink tea?

Have to disagree with you respectfully on this issue. I have no desire to be paid for a few weeks for sitting in my classroom planning or drinking tea or cleaning my room or whatever else. I am available to teach my classes on those days and would much prefer to do that. I opted out of S and S so on those days I am as available to do my job as I have been any day since I was given the option and privilege to pay to opt out of S and S. I dont care how any Minister tries to spin that but I am not withdrawing my labour on those days.

On this Thursday I would also much prefer to be teaching than picketing but I am more than prepared to take a stand on the moral issue of pay inequality.

amacca

man_no_plan wrote: »

If you got the s/s outside of LRA would that do it for you?

Actually not me personally...I've left to pursue greener pastures but remain interested as a think its a very tough job with lots of drawbacks as well as perks that many wouldn't be able to stick and deserves a lot of the rewards that are begrudged by some....I also believe repeatedly downgrading the terms and conditions of employment is not in the long term interests of education in this country (but hey maybe thats the plan - once you get a sector the run its easier to control - I wonder how many people will be satisfied with the education system when/if the govt get their way or successive Govts get to run the sector into the ground)

But if I still was then frankly no I don't think it would - it would however simply mean that the Govt had finally agreed to honour the terms of an agreement and the withdrawal of S and S wouldn't happen and schools could stay open on the 7th as normal...win win for everyone afaic

then the "negotiations" on the other issues could continue

after all why should they be discarded?