ASTI OctNov Action *Post 1 for usual plea for restraint Especially New Posters *

deiseindublin

It's seems apparent from both times I heard RB interviewed today and they don't intend equalizing pay anytime soon!

Listening to him is like getting thru' to a call centre, there are 4 or 5 formulaic answers, no matter the question.

JellieBabie

deiseindublin wrote: »

It's seems apparent from both times I heard RB interviewed today and they don't intend equalizing pay anytime soon!

Listening to him is like getting thru' to a call centre, there are 4 or 5 formulaic answers, no matter the question.

He doesn't even answer the questions put to him. He was asked by Sharon ni Bheolain whether the government's policy is to persist with a two tier pay structure with newer entrants on lower rates and he talked around it. His answer was something along the lines of refusing to make a special deal with a particular union. We are so special!

Eintrachtrob

deiseindublin wrote: »

It's seems apparent from both times I heard RB interviewed today and they don't intend equalizing pay anytime soon!

Listening to him is like getting thru' to a call centre, there are 4 or 5 formulaic answers, no matter the question.

Ed Byrne stated on Clare Byrne live that officials in the DES wouldn't even recognise the term "unequal pay scale", and made it clear there was to be no discussion on that issue

This was last Monday

man_no_plan

JellieBabie wrote: »

LPTs could be getting improved pay yes but not equal pay. It is still not equal under the TUI deal. I think this is something we should have a very hard line on - otherwise we are supporting the idea that people can be paid differently on arbitrary grounds.

I know, and I take your point on this. I don't think there is a person here who thinks that unequal pay is right.

How hard will your line be? 7 days strike action is hard, coupled with the s/s, coupled with the JC dispute. My fear is that the ASTI will take this action and gain nothing at all. They have already softened their stance. That is a fact. There has been a dearth of strategy and pragmatism in the ASTI and it has potential to damage a strong union irreversibility.

deiseindublin

I think that's down to TUI letting them down though m_n_p. We wouldn't be in this stalemate if TUI had the sense to stay outside of LRA.

Eintrachtrob

man_no_plan wrote: »

I know, and I take your point on this. I don't think there is a person here who thinks that unequal pay is right.

How hard will your line be? 7 days strike action is hard, coupled with the s/s, coupled with the JC dispute. My fear is that the ASTI will take this action and gain nothing at all. They have already softened their stance. That is a fact. There has been a dearth of strategy and pragmatism in the ASTI and it has potential to damage a strong union irreversibility.

Can I ask which union you're a member of?

Pursefan

Asti to meet Senior barristers tomorrow morning. This has to be illegal. I am paying 1600 euros a year NOT to do SnS. I will be damped if Brutal Bruton will touch my pay for teaching. We need cool heads now.

The_Valeyard

I Dont see many schools opening after the midterm regardless of management policy if your not going to be paid, even if you turn up to teach. Why would you bother?

deiseindublin

I think it was actually more, €1769, to opt out!

man_no_plan

Eintrachtrob wrote: »

Can I ask which union you're a member of?

I'm in TUI , I used to be quite involved but not so much over the last few years with family stuff that needs my time right now.

I can see where demise Dublin is coming from too and could equally say if ASTI went in it wouldn't be where it is now either.

I was pro the may agreement as the lesser of two evils at the time and still think we made the right decision. But as I said before the ASTI need to take this action now because of the cut to s/s etc. They haven't got the head for this as far as I can see, they are unconvincing in the media and seem rattled.

The regular members would be better off in the room talking to the DES if you ask me. I'm glad TUI aren't in the dispute now because we'd be taken to the cleaners too with our current president.

man_no_plan

deiseindublin wrote: »

I think it was actually more, €1769, to opt out!

Was it not the 2011 rate of 1596 or done crazy figure like it?

judeboy101

man_no_plan wrote: »

Was it not the 2011 rate of 1596 or done crazy figure like it?

It was . I lose 60 yoyo's gross a paycheck

deiseindublin

Friend told me they dropped €1769 but he's on old scale.

Eintrachtrob

man_no_plan wrote: »

I'm in TUI , I used to be quite involved but not so much over the last few years with family stuff that needs my time right now.

I can see where demise Dublin is coming from too and could equally say if ASTI went in it wouldn't be where it is now either.

I was pro the may agreement as the lesser of two evils at the time and still think we made the right decision. But as I said before the ASTI need to take this action now because of the cut to s/s etc. They haven't got the head for this as far as I can see, they are unconvincing in the media and seem rattled.

The regular members would be better off in the room talking to the DES if you ask me. I'm glad TUI aren't in the dispute now because we'd be taken to the cleaners too with our current president.

Yep - suspected you were TUI alright, judging by the hyperbolic nature of your posts which are clearly anti-ASTI.

Last May your President, Gerry Quinn, told TUI members that "acceptance of the LRA opens the door to pay equality"

Here he is here at 0:40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sqm7bMTOLk

It was a complete lie then, and Bruton confirmed it as much this morning, when he refused to acknowledge THREE times that he even believed in pay equality.

The recent modest improvements obtained for TUI/INTO members were won by the ASTI.

ASTI have taken action for LPTs, like they took action for S&S in 2000-2001.
Both times the TUI were missing.

r93kaey5p2izun

The opt out costs 1769 for pre 2011 and 1592 for post 2011.

deiseindublin

I knew I wasn't imagining the €1769 figure.

man_no_plan

Eintrachtrob wrote: »

The recent modest improvements obtained for TUI/INTO members were won by the ASTI.

ASTI have taken action for LPTs, like they took action for S&S in 2000-2001.
Both times the TUI were missing.

Okay. If you say so.

I really don't want to get into a TUI V ASTI thing here, it won't help in any way.

My opinions are only that from watching and listening and my own experience in unions both in the private and public sectors.

I think the issues are valid there's no doubt about that, but there's no clear strategy that I can see. I hope I'm wrong of course, but I don't think I am.

So you can think what you want of the TUI and regardless of % yes/no or who said what when the members accepted the agreement in may because they felt it was the best thing for them.

If you think the President misled the TUI membership that's fine too. I think the ASTI leadership misled ASTI members on the pay restoration issue.

We can agree to differ on it.

man_no_plan

Dominik Mammoth Millionaire wrote: »

The opt out costs 1769 for pre 2011 and 1592 for post 2011.

And is the pay deduction also equal to the higher rate or to the lower rate?

I thought it was the lower as when its restored those doing S/S will be +1596 and those opting out would be -1596?

Everyone lost the rate initially.

joebloggs32

Eintrachtrob wrote: »

Yep - suspected you were TUI alright, judging by the hyperbolic nature of your posts which are clearly anti-ASTI.

Last May your President, Gerry Quinn, told TUI members that "acceptance of the LRA opens the door to pay equality"

Here he is here at 0:40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sqm7bMTOLk

It was a complete lie then, and Bruton confirmed it as much this morning, when he refused to acknowledge THREE times that he even believed in pay equality.

The recent modest improvements obtained for TUI/INTO members were won by the ASTI.

ASTI have taken action for LPTs, like they took action for S&S in 2000-2001.
Both times the TUI were missing.

Most in here would know he was TUI, as am I.
I too would think the TUI chose the right path in May, but as things now stand I fully support the ASTI stance over S&S. There is no way you can work it unpaid.
On pay equality it is difficult to see anything more being given during the LRA, so I don't know what the ASTI endgame is here. I suspect a promise of some more restoration in the next deal. All I can tell you is that where I work every new staff member joined the TUI this year over the ASTI, so they must be doing something right.

judeboy101

man_no_plan wrote: »

And is the pay deduction also equal to the higher rate or to the lower rate?

I thought it was the lower as when its restored those doing S/S will be +1596 and those opting out would be -1596?

Everyone lost the rate initially.

So if you are a pre 2011 teacher, how much gross should you lose per paycheck??

Icsics

Eintrachtrob wrote: »

Are the DES basically telling ASTI members who opted out of S&S that the opt out no longer applies because the opt ins have opted out?

PS - Keep giving us free money.

Exactly! I have yet to hear ASTI bring this up in any media interviews. They'd would want to have a very clear legal position by Friday, at the moment the DES is making it up as they go along, unchallenged

evolving_doors

man_no_plan wrote: »

Okay. If you say so.

I really don't want to get into a TUI V ASTI thing here, it won't help in any way.

My opinions are only that from watching and listening and my own experience in unions both in the private and public sectors.

I think the issues are valid there's no doubt about that, but there's no clear strategy that I can see. I hope I'm wrong of course, but I don't think I am.

So you can think what you want of the TUI and regardless of % yes/no or who said what when the members accepted the agreement in may because they felt it was the best thing for them.

If you think the President misled the TUI membership that's fine too. I think the ASTI leadership misled ASTI members on the pay restoration issue.

We can agree to differ on it.

It's more principal than strategy. We agreed to do sands for free (anyone thank us for that!) Tables got turned on us so I'm out..
This strike is going to cost me probably more than I'll earn on sands in 6months. But I'd rather stick to my principles and keep some dignity.

Villain

I think a lot of people don't realize that DES and the Government can't fold here it would open the floodgates. The ASTI need to find a way of backtracking here or fudging some change in interpreting what is in place for TUI.

ankles

IS there any definitive list of schools shut tomorrow. I want to drop in an application form and I don't know if the school will be shut. Is there a list anywhere?

dory

This is a disaster. I already know a few in work who will sign that form on the QT. If enough do it then bam, school open and strike is broken. Hope I'm wrong.

Really can't see the gov giving in on this one. They'll have to make do with some promise for the future.

km79

ankles wrote: »

IS there any definitive list of schools shut tomorrow. I want to drop in an application form and I don't know if the school will be shut. Is there a list anywhere?

can it not wait a day ??????

paddybarry

dory wrote: »

This is a disaster. I already know a few in work who will sign that form on the QT. If enough do it then bam, school open and strike is broken. Hope I'm wrong.

Really can't see the gov giving in on this one. They'll have to make do with some promise for the future.

This would be my concern aswell. I think it is a disgraceful move by Government and an attempt to bully teachers into submission. This will do untold damage to staff relations in many schools if it comes to pass.

ankles

Closing date is Friday, wanted to make sure it got in before deadline.

km79

ankles wrote: »

Closing date is Friday, wanted to make sure it got in before deadline.

all schools are open Friday

acequion

man_no_plan wrote: »

Unfortunately its not a choice I could have made at the time. Presumably the continued deduction is as a result of the payment going on the scale point so that you would in effect be getting paid less for not doing the s/s. As for the situation now I don't know.

I think the point we are missing here in a bigger scale is that FEMPI is the law and part if FEMPI is the collective agreements. If you're not in then your pay is cut. If you are in then it would be paid.

I think that the s/s is a sideshow. The real issue here was CP hours. The ASTI sold its members a pup in May. They said pull out of Croke Park hours its as simple as that. But its not that simple as we see. Whether there was an agreement or not is both important and not important. Its important to know and to note that it was agreed but its equally important to know that you're in FEMPI or you're in the LRA and there's no provision to be half in or half out.

The position on S/S in the HRA is

As the above annualised payments are in the nature of a pensionable allowance (and are not amenable to current “buy-out” arrangements), the following arrangements shall apply:
‐ A gross]' additional payment equivalent to the 2011 lower payment rate paid for supervision and substitution will be included in the common basic scale for teachers. This will be included in two moieties with half included in the school year 2016/17 and the second half included in the school year 2017/18.
Such payments to be considered in any future pay negotiation arrangements in respect of teachers. The duties continue to be performed indefinitely. Full document HERE

My own view is this

• The ASTI have had changes at the top and were keen to toughen their stance.
• The ]'JC was rejected in spite of it meeting all of the stated concerns before talks which was seen as a show of strength
• Teachers are annoyed with Croke Park hours - Poor leadership, im not just talking about the union leadership, i'm talking about active members influencing inactive members, gave the impression that rejection of th eCrokp Park Hours was a simple act of voting no.
• The DES warned that the S/S wouln't be paid if the union was not covered by the LRA - the union didn't believe it, DES called the bluff and didn't pay
• The strike action over LPT's as they're called was pandering to a young element that didn't feel well served by the union. This however has now been overshadowed by the S/S row and the closed schools. Now ASTI say they want a timeline to pay equalisation. That is far from what was said at the time of teh vote. Nuacht Says that the vote is because the DES didnt restore the co]'mmon basic scale before the end of August - the cats and dogs knew this wasn't happening. The impression here is that it is full restoration or bust. This could never have been the case.
• Now we are here, looking at a serious industrial dispute and people are dirtying their pants because they were poorly informed about the consequences of their vote.

The reasons for the action and the concerns are very valid and laudable but I think, as I thought in May, that the ASTI have been foolhardy and have led members up the garden path on this one.

Right now ASTI teachers could be getting paid for S/S and increments, the LPT's could be getting the increments and the improved pay from the TUI INTO deal.]'

Maybe the action will get the pay commission moving more quickly, maybe there will be a definite timeline put in place after this but that is not what members voted for. S/S paid will come back, CP hours will come back, ?new JC will be accepted, all things the ASTI membership rejected. for that the ASTI leadership should be held to account because they had to know that this would end in compromise but they made it look like they were going to change the whole thing in one go.

I hope that when it's all over the two unions can get working together. The JC dispute was the most effective campaign by the teacher unions in recent times because they had a clear strategy and vision and well constructed arguments with a clear strategy and a clear message on what was the bottom line. The bottom line on these current issues keeps moving.

A very irksome post here! You're like good cop /bad cop man-no-plan. On the one hand you laud us for our actions,while on the other point the "I told you you should have done the same as us" finger. Poor taste considering the fact that many of us,myself included, resent the fact that the TUI always let us down in every fight while reaping the benefits gained. Also poor taste considering that everybody is uncomfortable with the differing union positions and trying not to get personal about it.

But as you started it why not climb down of your smug high horse for a minute and consider the following:

1.Changes at the top of ASTI were welcomed by most,as previous leadership was far too conciliatory, along the lines of your own union and people were utterly sick of never getting anywhere. Unless you consider being a party to agreements which the Gov plays to its own rules, "somewhere", which you obviously do.

2. For the umpteenth time I rebut your claims that the JC campaign was a big success and that all the aims were achieved. Quite simply no all aims were not achieved and that is why ASTI members rejected it. And as for the joint campaign being so effective and such a great strategy,you are joking,right? Because from my viewpoint it was looking promising until the TUI once again dumped the ASTI to continue alone.

3. As for your smug insinuations that ASTI members could be /should be good little boys and girls doing what they're told,getting their pittance for S&S,trotting off to their CP hours and eating the cake that is increments and having nice little chats re the few extra bob thrown to the LPT's because after all it's pretty clear that Bruton isn't into pay equality. His refusal to answer that simple question on MI this morning made that one clear.Forgive the sarcasm but you know full well how ASTI members feel about LRA and also about pay restoration. Ok if you don't agree but can you not respect it?

4. And as for your remarks about ASTI members being led astray by the more active members,I take exception to that as a CEC member. All the issues were first debated at the annual convention and decisions then taken at CEC which is how it works. Everything was put out to a democratic vote which is also how it works and all the information was put out there in advance. Up to now the union leaders have been completely in sync with members so everybody is equally responsible here. Yes we are fighting a big battle and we don't know the outcome and there may be a lot of pain. But there is absolutely no doubt that we would be in a much stronger position if we had the support of our fellow teacher unions.

But for all that I'm proud that we are standing up to this unjust and bullying Government whatever the outcome. I'm sorry but I really would hate to be a member of a union like yours. Like many who have posted here,I would feel completely unrepresented. Why not take a read of the TUI grassroots facebook page if you don't believe me. Because while there may be many who don't agree with me,there are plenty who don't agree with you.