ASTI OctNov Action *Post 1 for usual plea for restraint Especially New Posters *

political analyst

acequion wrote: »

For the umpteenth time I rebut your claims that the JC campaign was a big success and that all the aims were achieved. Quite simply no all aims were not achieved and that is why ASTI members rejected it. And as for the joint campaign being so effective and such a great strategy,you are joking,right? Because from my viewpoint it was looking promising until the TUI once again dumped the ASTI to continue alone.

Which aims were not achieved?

JellieBabie

man_no_plan wrote: »

I know, and I take your point on this. I don't think there is a person here who thinks that unequal pay is right.

How hard will your line be? 7 days strike action is hard, coupled with the s/s, coupled with the JC dispute. My fear is that the ASTI will take this action and gain nothing at all. They have already softened their stance. That is a fact. There has been a dearth of strategy and pragmatism in the ASTI and it has potential to damage a strong union irreversibility.

Yes that is hard. You know what is also hard? Being a qualified teacher with a Master's degree and getting no allowances. Walking into work everyday down on pay than the people next door. Realising that every year I work I am down approximately 10,000 euro. 7 days of pay cuts is very hard but so is what LPTs experience

Villain

JellieBabie wrote: »

Yes that is hard. You know what is also hard? Being a qualified teacher with a Master's degree and getting no allowances. Walking into work everyday down on pay than the people next door. Realising that every year I work I am down approximately 10,000 euro. 7 days of pay cuts is very hard but so is what LPTs experience

You see that makes sense and fighting for that if there was no movement makes sense also, however the TUI have negotiated a path towards making it equal where you get back a large part of it.

The problem is Teachers and Gardai are not unique and the Government simply can't afford to reverse this in one go.

deiseindublin

TU I 'deal' was offered to scare ASTI into submission. It wouldnt have been offered had ASTI been inside LRA. They still don't have a date for equalisation either. Basically, a little bit equal will do.

I'm totally ashamed to be a TUI member.

r93kaey5p2izun

Villain wrote: »

however the TUI have negotiated a path towards making it equal where you get back a large part of it.

But no they haven't! There is no commitment to pay equality and definitely no pathway set out leading to equality. That's the problem! The TUI have negotiated some gains for LPTs but that's not a pathway to equality. Why would we believe a government who has repeatedly failed to keep their side of agreements when they won't even make a commitment and give a date? Bruton's carry on in recent days just brings that into sharper focus.

JellieBabie

Villain wrote: »

You see that makes sense and fighting for that if there was no movement makes sense also, however the TUI have negotiated a path towards making it equal where you get back a large part of it.

The problem is Teachers and Gardai are not unique and the Government simply can't afford to reverse this in one go.

They have negotiated an allowance for a BA. That's it. Same exact scale and no other allowances. It is partial restoration and a step in the right direction but LPTs have suffered 5 years of cuts already. Judges are getting a rise of 20,000 in January, the TDs are giving themselves 5,000. There is room for more creative thinking here. The guards and the nurses need to stand firm with teachers. We all need to strike and put the government under pressure together. It's farcical that the teaching unions are divided on this.

man_no_plan

acequion wrote: »

A very irksome post here! You're like good cop /bad cop man-no-plan. On the one hand you laud us for our actions,while on the other point the "I told you you should have done the same as us" finger. Poor taste considering the fact that many of us,myself included, resent the fact that the TUI always let us down in every fight while reaping the benefits gained. Also poor taste considering that everybody is uncomfortable with the differing union positions and trying not to get personal about it.

But as you started it why not climb down of your smug high horse for a minute and consider the following:

1.Changes at the top of ASTI were welcomed by most,as previous leadership was far too conciliatory, along the lines of your own union and people were utterly sick of never getting anywhere. Unless you consider being a party to agreements which the Gov plays to its own rules, "somewhere", which you obviously do.

2. For the umpteenth time I rebut your claims that the JC campaign was a big success and that all the aims were achieved. Quite simply no all aims were not achieved and that is why ASTI members rejected it. And as for the joint campaign being so effective and such a great strategy,you are joking,right? Because from my viewpoint it was looking promising until the TUI once again dumped the ASTI to continue alone.

3. As for your smug insinuations that ASTI members could be /should be good little boys and girls doing what they're told,getting their pittance for S&S,trotting off to their CP hours and eating the cake that is increments and having nice little chats re the few extra bob thrown to the LPT's because after all it's pretty clear that Bruton isn't into pay equality. His refusal to answer that simple question on MI this morning made that one clear.Forgive the sarcasm but you know full well how ASTI members feel about LRA and also about pay restoration. Ok if you don't agree but can you not respect it?

4. And as for your remarks about ASTI members being led astray by the more active members,I take exception to that as a CEC member. All the issues were first debated at the annual convention and decisions then taken at CEC which is how it works. Everything was put out to a democratic vote which is also how it works and all the information was put out there in advance. Up to now the union leaders have been completely in sync with members so everybody is equally responsible here. Yes we are fighting a big battle and we don't know the outcome and there may be a lot of pain. But there is absolutely no doubt that we would be in a much stronger position if we had the support of our fellow teacher unions.

But for all that I'm proud that we are standing up to this unjust and bullying Government whatever the outcome. I'm sorry but I really would hate to be a member of a union like yours. Like many who have posted here,I would feel completely unrepresented. Why not take a read of the TUI grassroots facebook page if you don't believe me. Because while there may be many who don't agree with me,there are plenty who don't agree with you.

That's from the outside looking in aceqion. As I say its only my opinion and I'd expect that plenty would disagree with it. I'm not trying to be smug, just had a bit of time this afternoon and thought I'd thrash out the whole thing as I saw it. The whole union system is in a mess at the minute, across the board. And for the record I supported the opponent to the current President, strongly.

For example, Someone here is worried that people will sign firms on the QT, that kind of treachery is the problem here. And it happens in both unions. There's lads working with me who went sick on the strike days last year but will get whatever we got at no expense to themselves. The ones who will let this thing down are the same as that, all complaints and no action and look after no.1, the opposite to a Union. This situation should never arise, the DES are playing us on the sectoral split ant actually effectively encouraging people not to be in unions. They ate gaining, if you want to call it that, from the TUI arrangement and will possibly gain from whatever you achieve and will probably not lose their pay for closure days if this comes to pass.

In alk of those circumstances I think The TUI call was the right call for the TUI knowing the appetite for strike action among the members. I hope that it will cause numbers to rise in the union and make it stronger. I hope that a similar rise will happen in ASTI after your action as people might feel more represented or whatever.

Then a single union, and possibly a separate union for school managers although I'm not convinced on this, with close to 100% membership will have real strength.

I know the work it takes being involved in the union and I meant no personal offence to you or anyone. Ye wouldn't be doing this if you didn't think it was right. Maybe I've lost my own mojo, I'll need to talk to Enda, I used to be a good man for a fight!

I think I'll leave it at that for this thread. I hope the reception tomorrow is positive and that the media focus on the individual teachers that the low pay action is being taken for and that some of the real stories get out.

feardeas

Just before the beginning of this and I get the feeling that it is a dry run for post mid term. The circular from the department is very clear. The decision of the Boards of Management in voluntary schools is clear and it seems that dual union schools will also close. This is the S and S section which I suppose is the result of rejecting LRA twice. To be ironically fair to the DES they have thus far delivered on everything they said last May and I’d imagine that will continue.

In terms of the strike for equal pay, I’m a bit bemused by the fact some of my LPT colleagues are chiefly concerned by how they sign the form to state they are willing to work tomorrow and thereafter. Now I may be ate alive but these people are all on at least 18 hours in the school I work in. They are not literally crossing the picket but signing the form is certainly doing it in a metaphorical sense. Of course I smile to myself because I voted against but will stand at the gate tomorrow, travel 45 minutes to do so, not get paid because I’m in the union. By the way I understand they’re within their rights and wish them luck, I like them and they are hard working people.

Anyway good luck everyone and enjoy the full pay cheque tomorrow, could be the last one for a while. Once more onto the breach.......

political analyst

Does anyone on this forum believe that the Govt is willing to let secondary schools be closed for weeks? Surely, LRA can't be regarded as being more important than children's education.

Iused2likebusts

political analyst wrote: »

Does anyone on this forum believe that the Govt is willing to let secondary schools be closed for weeks? Surely, LRA can't be regarded as being more important than children's education.

All for the sake of a net cost of about 7 euro a week for s&s.

CptMackey

political analyst wrote: »

Does anyone on this forum believe that the Govt is willing to let secondary schools be closed for weeks? Surely, LRA can't be regarded as being more important than children's education.

As an outsider looking in it seems to me that it is the teachers putting the education of the children at risk. IF this goes on as I think it will then the schools will be closed for a while. I was a student during the last strike and it didn't help our relationships with the teachers. My leaving cert was effected badly .

The government can't yield on this or they will have strikes all over the place.

Was it not the unions that sold out the new members on pay in the first place to safe guard existing members pay scales?

Blueshirttwat

This is basically the same group as Collins, who came home saying the only game in town. What happened next? Who ruled after?

Blueshirttwat

The unions who signed up to LRA have a right to do so, even if it included inequalitys.
Other unions have a right to form separate agreements.
If a union outside the LRA, get's a deal that is different to those inside the LRA, what's the problem? The union inside the LRA have signed up to the concept of inequality?

Villain

Blueshirttwat wrote: »

The unions who signed up to LRA have a right to do so, even if it included inequalitys.
Other unions have a right to form separate agreements.
If a union outside the LRA, get's a deal that is different to those inside the LRA, what's the problem? The union inside the LRA have signed up to the concept of inequality?

Whats the problem!!

As I said a few posts back the problem is the floodgates open and the Government doesn't have the money to close them.

Inspector Coptoor

CptMackey wrote: »

The government can't yield on this or they will have strikes all over the place.

Was it not the unions that sold out the new members on pay in the first place to safe guard existing members pay scales?

Government seem to have no problem making special deals for Gardai and Doctors and then claiming these deals are within LRA - pull the other one.

No teacher or union EVER voted for a reduction in pay or for two and now three different pay scales.
That was done by the enactment of FEMPI legislation and by the Public Accounts Committee during a time when unions in the Croke Park Agreement had temporarily given up their right to strike.

km79

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Government seem to have no problem making special deals for Gardai and Doctors and then claiming these deals are within LRA - pull the other one.

No teacher or union EVER voted for a reduction in pay or for two and now three different pay scales.
That was done by the enactment of FEMPI legislation and by the Public Accounts Committee during a time when unions in the Croke Park Agreement had temporarily given up their right to strike.

Indeed if you believe today's papers .......
Guards new deal includes cutting back by one hour a week
Wouldn't that be their croke park hours gone ..........?
Nurses to get 3 weeks of talks in November . If no deal they are taking a COURT CASE in feb .
Meanwhile we are currently seeking legal advice ......10 days before we will not get paid indefinitely
What's our unions plan ???? They need to have a solid plan relayed to us by tomorrow

Lord TSC

CptMackey wrote: »

As an outsider looking in it seems to me that it is the teachers putting the education of the children at risk. IF this goes on as I think it will then the schools will be closed for a while. I was a student during the last strike and it didn't help our relationships with the teachers. My leaving cert was effected badly .

But what about the education of ALL children, not just current ones but future ones too? What about fighting to prevent constantly deteriorating conditions that will affect the long term education of all students, now and in the future? What about fighting to get the best and brightest students to progress into the education sector, instead of running away from an industry full of demotivated, underpaid individualists?

Any student genuinely worried about their education should be able to see a few free days as a chance to study and get all their notes, etc in order.

But the sad fact is that this government desperately wants everyone to roll over and be good little meek slaves who preferably do as much work as possible for no money; a government who have zero interest in the quality of life young people in this country and living, and actively want the highly educated to leave the country. Don't be fooled by that line of logic being fed; the reality is in this country, the government wants the public sector to shut up and obey them without question, and do it for free preferably.

Villain wrote: »

Whats the problem!!

As I said a few posts back the problem is the floodgates open and the Government doesn't have the money to close them.

Well, thats not what they were saying at the last election. What happened to all that campaigning revolving round the country being back on track, the economy was fixed again, vote for us cause Ireland is back, baby! Oh, hang on. They want their cake and to eat it too :rolleyes:

hmmm

Lord TSC wrote: »

What happened to all that campaigning revolving round the country being back on track, the economy was fixed again, vote for us cause Ireland is back, baby! Oh, hang on. They want their cake and to eat it too :rolleyes:

The economy is on the mend, not "fixed". We are still running a deficit, still borrowing to pay for day to day spending, still loading on debt that our children will have to pay. The money isn't there to hand out billions in pay increases to everyone who wants one.

The unions have been poorly led on this I think - because so many unions have decided to go militant all at the same time, the demands are unaffordable. The current government won't fold, and any potential replacement government won't fold.

Villain

Lord TSC wrote: »

Well, thats not what they were saying at the last election. What happened to all that campaigning revolving round the country being back on track, the economy was fixed again, vote for us cause Ireland is back, baby! Oh, hang on. They want their cake and to eat it too :rolleyes:

As the great Union man Pat Rabbitte said that is what you do at elections, did you not see the Dail debate last night as a perfect example of people not keeping their word.

As for others mentioning the possible Garda deal, I didn't think the Gardai were at the table for Lansdowne agreement in fact I am almost certain they were made leave?

deiseindublin

hmmm wrote: »

The money isn't there to hand out billions in pay increases to everyone who wants one.

ASTI aren't looking for increases. They're looking for restoration of equal pay for LPTs and for S&S money as was promised at the end of HRA.

deiseindublin

Richard B on Radio1 now!

km79

deiseindublin wrote: »

Richard B on Radio1 now!

What did he say

deiseindublin

Still on.

Still won't answer Equal pay Q in principle, just rabbiting on about other unions and the economy, blah, blah, blah.

Said those that opted out of S&S will also have their pay cut because collectively the ASTI issued an edict for all ASTI to withdraw from S&S so therefore pay cut will apply to all ASTI members.

You couldn't make it up.

Eintrachtrob

deiseindublin wrote: »

Richard B on Radio1 now!

As usual he gets off scot free because the right questions are not asked.

Same mantra over & over again.

Do the Croke Park hours (i.e. enter the Lansdowne Road Agreement) and we'll pay for S&S.

Eintrachtrob

deiseindublin wrote: »

Still on.

Still won't answer Equal pay Q in principle, just rabbiting on about other unions and the economy, blah, blah, blah.

Said those that opted out of S&S will also have their pay cut because collectively the ASTI issued an edict for all ASTI to withdraw from S&S so therefore pay cut will apply to all ASTI members.

You couldn't make it up.

By refusing to pay those who opted out of S&S (and pay nearly €2000 a year to opt out), this has turned from an industrial dispute into theft.

deiseindublin

I know, last Q of interview he was asked if they could get the TUI concessions without entering LRA and he answered that all of these offers were on the table, didn't say outside LRA though and he wasn't picked up on!

Eintrachtrob

https://www.fiannafail.ie/byrne-questions-government-approach-on-teachers-strike/

please give a brief summary rather than just a linkdump.
Ta
Mod

gaiscioch

Great atmosphere out there this morning. Somebody came over to us and gave us each a cup of coffee. I took a diversion on the way home to pass as many schools as possible and cheer them on with my humble car horn.

We forgot to take photos, though. Wasn't there some place we could upload strike photos to last year? Where can they be uploaded to this year?

Heard of a school this week where the teachers' representatives on the Board of Management were locked out of the BOM meeting that decided to close the school down over the S&S issue. Surely with this supposed "conflict of interest" precedent parents will be excluded from BOM meetings when any potential "conflict of interest" concerning parents - voluntary contribution levy, fees, etc - will be discussed?








Les grands ne sont grands que parce que nous sommes à genoux:Levons-nous.
Ní uasal aon uasal ach sinne bheith íseal: Éirímis.
The great appear great because we are on our knees: Let us rise.

maude6868

Eintrachtrob wrote: »

By refusing to pay those who opted out of S&S (and pay nearly €2000 a year to opt out), this has turned from an industrial dispute into theft.

Wish I could like this post a thousand times. We want our money refunded to us now seeing as the 'irrevocable' opt out is now totally revocable. Fuming at that, just another lie we bought.

gaiscioch

Regarding the interview on Today with Seán O'Rourke that Keelin Shanley had with Richard Bruton this morning I wish the presenter, and indeed all other journalists, could interrogate Bruton about his insistence on those 33 Croke Park Hours. He got a very easy ride today.

The interview can be heard here.

When I hear the words "Croke Park Hours" and "reform" I think of that Hans Christian Anderson story, The Emperor's New Clothes - you know, the story where the tailors make an emperor a suit of clothes which they say is invisible to anybody who is stupid or unworthy of their positions. As a result nobody is willing to speak the truth until a child screams the obvious: the Emperor really has no clothes! Likewise with our "reform" hours which have nothing whatever to do with reform.

As Bruton was insisting on the sanctity of the Croke Park Hours this morning here are some questions for any journalist who has the courage to ask them:

1. What is the point of the Croke Park Hours?
2. How can you honestly describe the Croke Park Hours as reform?
3. Why is the Department of Education risking the education of Irish schoolchildren because it insists that Irish teachers sign up to these utterly wasteful, inefficient and pointless hours?
4. Just how many "in-services" on child protection/data protection must be attended before you stop calling it "reform"?
5. Why does your Department think bureaucratisation of the teaching profession is an essential part of reform?
6. Do you not think that insisting that educated professionals be held on effective detention in their rooms under the guise of these "reform" hours is bound to destroy goodwill from teachers?
7. With the head of the Department of Education on a combined salary and pensions package of close to €300,000 per annum (and many other "reformers" in the DoES benefitting from extraordinary conditions of employment), ethically speaking how can you insist that pay equalisation for poor teachers must wait?