ASTI OctNov Action *Post 1 for usual plea for restraint Especially New Posters *

political analyst

gaiscioch wrote: »

Regarding the interview on Today with Seán O'Rourke that Keelin Shanley had with Richard Bruton this morning I wish the presenter, and indeed all other journalists, could interrogate Bruton about his insistence on those 33 Croke Park Hours. He got a very easy ride today.

The interview can be heard here.

When I hear the words "Croke Park Hours" and "reform" I think of that Hans Christian Anderson story, The Emperor's New Clothes - you know, the story where the tailors make an emperor a suit of clothes which they say is invisible to anybody who is stupid or unworthy of their positions. As a result nobody is willing to speak the truth until a child screams the obvious: the Emperor really has no clothes! Likewise with our "reform" hours which have nothing whatever to do with reform.

As Bruton was insisting on the sanctity of the Croke Park Hours this morning here are some questions for any journalist who has the courage to ask them:

1. What is the point of the Croke Park Hours?
2. How can you honestly describe the Croke Park Hours as reform?
3. Why is the Department of Education risking the education of Irish schoolchildren because it insists that Irish teachers sign up to these utterly wasteful, inefficient and pointless hours?
4. Just how many "in-services" on child protection/data protection must be attended before you stop calling it "reform"?
5. Why does your Department think bureaucratisation of the teaching profession is an essential part of reform?
6. Do you not think that insisting that educated professionals be held on effective detention in their rooms under the guise of these "reform" hours is bound to destroy goodwill from teachers?
7. With the head of the Department of Education on a combined salary and pensions package of close to €300,000 per annum (and many other "reformers" in the DoES benefitting from extraordinary conditions of employment), ethically speaking how can you insist that pay equalisation for poor teachers must wait?

Strictly speaking, ASTI members' refusal to do the CP hours isn't causing the school closures - their refusal to do S&S is.

Surely, they must have known that the obligations of one pay-agreement are carried over in the next one and thus that they wouldn't get paid for S&S if they didn't accept LRA and that fact and the fact that HRA has expired means that the Department is not obliged to pay ASTI members for S&S.

The Department believes that, by accepting HRA, the teachers' unions accepted S&S as part of teachers' contracts - paid or unpaid.

Which is worse: doing S&S unpaid or being stuck in pointless meetings?

Eintrachtrob

maude6868 wrote: »

Wish I could like this post a thousand times. We want our money refunded to us now seeing as the 'irrevocable' opt out is now totally revocable. Fuming at that, just another lie we bought.

If Bruton didn't pay you on Nov 7, I'd strongly consider taking personal legal action and suing the DES.

They may sound like strong words (and I'm not advocating this, just my personal opinion), but it seems so absolutely crazy that they think they could get away with this.

judeboy101

Asti offering to do s&s for ward report

km79

judeboy101 wrote: »

Asti offering to do s&s for ward report

paid or unpaid
can you provide a link please

Eintrachtrob

judeboy101 wrote: »

Asti offering to do s&s for ward report

That would be completely unacceptable to me.

Crazy we would even consider offering unpaid S&S for the Ward report.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/1027/827291-asti-strike-talks/

coillsaille

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

For both sides to save face we need to shut down Nov 7th because if either side blinks pre Nov 7th- then it shows weakness.

Is this a blink from ASTI I wonder? Suspend the SnS withdrawal if CIDs put back to 2 years.


http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/1027/827291-asti-strike-talks/

judeboy101

km79 wrote: »

paid or unpaid
can you provide a link please

Ed Byrne on radio. Unpaid. Union spooked by des pulling wages. That's it we've blinked first

km79

judeboy101 wrote: »

Ed Byrne on radio. Unpaid. Union spooked by des pulling wages. That's it we've blinked first

days pay lost for NOTHING as predicted
Will lose a lot of members if this is suggested and then leads to LRA which it inevitably will

maude6868

judeboy101 wrote: »

Ed Byrne on radio. Unpaid. Union spooked by des pulling wages. That's it we've blinked first

I'd like to see the union hold out. Unfreeze increments as well as Ward Report

sitstill

judeboy101 wrote: »

Ed Byrne on radio. Unpaid. Union spooked by des pulling wages. That's it we've blinked first

Ed Byrne needs to go NOW.
How dare he throw us under the bus like this. What a sell out. If it happens, my 11 years in ASTI are over and I'll move to TUI.

deiseindublin

sitstill wrote: »

my 11 years in ASTI are over and I'll move to TUI.

Believe me, that's not progress.

paddybarry

I think what Ed Byrne is suggesting that in return for CIDs of two years, ASTI members will do S and S until alternative arrangements can be put in place. To be honest, I don't see much wrong with this. It shows that ASTI are being more than reasonable.

Icsics

It's bizarre he would suggest 2yr CID for S&S, surely they are 2 seperate matters. S&S was withdrawn because we weren't paid, not to be confused with LPT issues

km79

If that's the best they think we can get we may as well sign up to LRA now and end all the stupid posturing
That's a pathetic offer

sitstill

deiseindublin wrote: »

Believe me, that's not progress.

I know. But if he's roping us into S&S anyway, I may as well have been in the TUI all along.

km79

What I had thought the govt may have offered would have been as follows
Pay s and s in return for suspension of strike day and commitment to more talks

Why would they do this now !

PATHETIC

km79

We have a large staff . There was ONE LPT on the picket rota
All the pissing and moaning about them being sold out etc etc for the last few years can be put to bed now .
Can't even be bothered to help themselves

Eintrachtrob

If we're prepared to give over S&S for CIDs reduced from 4 to 2 years, then where's the incentive for the DES to ever pay for S&S?

km79

Eintrachtrob wrote: »

If we're prepared to give over S&S for CIDs reduced from 4 to 2 years, then where's the incentive for the DES to ever pay for S&S?

None
Crazy from Ed Byrne

coillsaille

I'm worried we have blinked first in this stand-off by Ed Byrne offering what appears to be an olive branch. But I'll hold of on judging it until we know more. If he means just suspend the withdrawal until contingency arrangements are made then it's not a bad bargain and also makes us seem reasonable and willing to find solutions. If he means suspend the withdrawal indefinitely in return for just this small measure with the CIDs then it's a disastrous move.

Eintrachtrob

Thing is, the DES want us doing Croke Park hours because once that happens we're basically in the LRA.

Benicetomonty

Publicity stunt to make asti look reasonable and des look unreasonable. Ed has no mandate to come up with a solution like that so wouldnt worry. Plus govt wont accept a temporary suspension of s and s for a permanent reinstatement of cid according to Ingrid Miley so dont think this is the end by a long shot.

deiseindublin

Yeah, I wouldn't panic yet if I was ASTI. I'm presuming he's just trying to stop the widespread panic over no wages after 7 November, and is not suggesting permanently doing S&S forever free gratis.

I'd imagine he's saying you'll continue for the duration of the talks, as you have been doing since 1 September.

km79

deiseindublin wrote: »

Yeah, I wouldn't panic yet if I was ASTI. I'm presuming he's just trying to stop the widespread panic over no wages after 7 November, and is not suggesting permanently doing S&S forever free gratis.

I'd imagine he's saying you'll continue for the duration of the talks, as you have been doing since 1 September.

Payment for s and s is not under LRA it's under HRA therefore the minimum I expected was payment of the 800 euro in return for suspension of strike action and more talks
At least that way one issue would have been dealt with once and for all

That is a pathetic trade off
Sure who knows will it even be accepted
We have started with such a weak offer the govt may just sense blood ........

Lord TSC

paddybarry wrote: »

I think what Ed Byrne is suggesting that in return for CIDs of two years, ASTI members will do S and S until alternative arrangements can be put in place. To be honest, I don't see much wrong with this. It shows that ASTI are being more than reasonable.

Why would alternatives ever be put in place when its shown teachers will always just agree to do them for free again?

Unions should not be letting any condition go like that. They should never agree to do work for nothing, because ultimately, the response in the future will be "Ah sure, you've been doing it for free for ages now, don't be a greedy ****er!"

The government JUST showed they weren't to be trusted when it came to promises for the future, and now the suggestion is to trust them again?

Fool me once, and all that...

Eintrachtrob

We have to see the S&S thing through.

However I could see this no wage on 07 November issue arising as soon as that date was mentioned for an ending to S&S, and I have wondered whether it was a tactical mistake on behalf of the ASTI not to give more time for supervisors to be recruited (yes I know the DES could see this coming, and did nothing, but they have the feeble excuse of waiting for the ballot result)

I know it might look weak, but would there be any benefit in Ed Byrne publicly asking Bruton when he would have external supervisors in place and for teachers to keep doing S&S in return.

Because there's one major issue at stake here - The DES want us in LRA ASAP. They don't want external supervisors.

So we should say. . . Off you go, hire your supervisors, when do you think you'll have them?

judeboy101

Eintrachtrob wrote: »

We have to see the S&S thing through.

However I could see this no wage on 07 November issue arising as soon as that date was mentioned for an ending to S&S, and I have wondered whether it was a tactical mistake on behalf of the ASTI not to give more time for supervisors to be recruited (yes I know the DES could see this coming, and did nothing, but they have the feeble excuse of waiting for the ballot result)

I know it might look weak, but would there be any benefit in Ed Byrne publicly asking Bruton when he would have external supervisors in place and for teachers to keep doing S&S in return.

Because there's one major issue at stake here - The DES want us in LRA ASAP. They don't want external supervisors.

So we should say. . . Off you go, hire your supervisors, when do you think you'll have them?

Just heard on grapevine in that this was offered at talks earlier in week and DES said no. ASTI are using it as a ploy to force gov into either admitting they have no plan to replacing us with outsiders and/or to look like we are willing to keep schools open as a good will gesture thus making the DES unreasonable if they refuse

political analyst

Lord TSC wrote: »

Why would alternatives ever be put in place when its shown teachers will always just agree to do them for free again?

Unions should not be letting any condition go like that. They should never agree to do work for nothing, because ultimately, the response in the future will be "Ah sure, you've been doing it for free for ages now, don't be a greedy ****er!"

The government JUST showed they weren't to be trusted when it came to promises for the future, and now the suggestion is to trust them again?

Fool me once, and all that...

Do you not think that being stuck in pointless meetings every week is worse?

coillsaille

judeboy101 wrote: »

Just heard on grapevine in that this was offered at talks earlier in week and DES said no. ASTI are using it as a ploy to force gov into either admitting they have no plan to replacing us with outsiders and/or to look like we are willing to keep schools open as a good will gesture thus making the DES unreasonable if they refuse

I hope that's the case. Bruton on radio today harping on about how ASTI have made contingency measures impossible by not giving more time and not allowing school managers be involved. So if it's a ploy by calling their bluff and saying ok we'll give ye more time then it could be a smart move.

feardeas

Whilst I voted against action it's clear he blinked. The circular must have spooked them big time.

Now I think Ward should be re-implemented but I'd like to think I and all of us would get the great bounty we've been due for S and S as part of the deal.