ASTI OctNov Action *Post 1 for usual plea for restraint Especially New Posters *

judeboy101

coillsaille wrote: »

I hope that's the case. Bruton on radio today harping on about how ASTI have made contingency measures impossible by not giving more time and not allowing school managers be involved. So if it's a ploy by calling their bluff and saying ok we'll give ye more time then it could be a smart move.

Gov couldn't care less about s&s they want us in LR doing 33hrs. The DES on the other hand really don't want another layer of employees to des with if outsiders come in. Plus it would be accepting that s&s is not "core work" or "part of our contract"

The_Valeyard

I thInk Ed Byrne put a rope around the neck of every ASTI teacher today.

Eintrachtrob

judeboy101 wrote: »

Just heard on grapevine in that this was offered at talks earlier in week and DES said no. ASTI are using it as a ploy to force gov into either admitting they have no plan to replacing us with outsiders and/or to look like we are willing to keep schools open as a good will gesture thus making the DES unreasonable if they refuse

Then time to call their bluff.

The ASTI should come out & announce that they will suspend the directive on S&S until the DES can come up with a date they will have supervisors appointed.

Win-win for the teachers:
1 - We don't do Croke Park
2 - We neutralise the DES threat not to pay us.
3 - Shows ASTI are being reasonable by giving DES yet more time.
4 - Shows that if DES not willing to compromise, then no deal will be the outcome.
5 - Forces DES to do something they don't want to do - Appoint supervisors.
6 - It'll show up DES as hypocrites, as they won't ask these supervisors to do CP.

scout353

km79 wrote: »

We have a large staff . There was ONE LPT on the picket rota
All the pissing and moaning about them being sold out etc etc for the last few years can be put to bed now .
Can't even be bothered to help themselves

If ye are an ASTI School did ye not have a rota for all members to picket?

Lord TSC wrote: »

Why would alternatives ever be put in place when its shown teachers will always just agree to do them for free again?

Unions should not be letting any condition go like that. They should never agree to do work for nothing, because ultimately, the response in the future will be "Ah sure, you've been doing it for free for ages now, don't be a greedy ****er!"

The government JUST showed they weren't to be trusted when it came to promises for the future, and now the suggestion is to trust them again?

Fool me once, and all that...

I would put a time frame on it and suspend S&S for a set period (say five weeks) to allow the DES/Schools hire externals for S&S and then see what the Gov reaction will be. I am fairly certain as stated in earlier posts that they have no desire to allow external supervisors into schools and pay them when they have the vast majority of teachers doing S&S for free!

political analyst wrote: »

Do you not think that being stuck in pointless meetings every week is worse?

I think a recognition that extra curricular activities should count towards the CP hours and then I wouldn't have an issue with the PT meetings after school and one staff meeting per term.


The DES insisted that talks cover all of the gripes including CP hours, JC reform as well as S&S and pay equalisation so this is probably the opportunity to address all the issues once and for all.

I think we will see

- a return to CP hours with the increase of the 5 discretionary hours to 10 or 15.

- Ward report restored

- S&S back to normal

- a commitment to a speedier report from the latest FG quango (Public Service Pay Commission) on Pay restoration which will still take nine to ten months.

So all in all nothing gained really!!!

km79

scout353 wrote: »

If ye are an ASTI School did ye not have a rota for all members to picket?




I would put a time frame on it and suspend S&S for a set period (say five weeks) to allow the DES/Schools hire externals for S&S and then see what the Gov reaction will be. I am fairly certain as stated in earlier posts that they have no desire to allow external supervisors into schools and pay them when they have the vast majority of teachers doing S&S for free!



I think a recognition that extra curricular activities should count towards the CP hours and then I wouldn't have an issue with the PT meetings after school and one staff meeting per term.


The DES insisted that talks cover all of the gripes including CP hours, JC reform as well as S&S and pay equalisation so this is probably the opportunity to address all the issues once and for all.

I think we will see

- a return to CP hours with the increase of the 5 discretionary hours to 10 or 15.

- Ward report restored

- S&S back to normal

- a commitment to a speedier report from the latest FG quango (Public Service Pay Commission) on Pay restoration which will still take nine to ten months.

So all in all nothing gained really!!!

Yes so they are not members

Iused2likebusts

A short term 1 month compromise of teachers doing what they are going to pay outsiders to do. Pay us what they will pay these outsiders for 1 month to keep the schools open. This will put the pressure back on the government and will keep union members on board.

coillsaille

scout353 wrote: »

If ye are an ASTI School did ye not have a rota for all members to picket?

I presumed the poster meant the LPTs in the school haven't bothered joining the union so couldn't be put on the rota.

evolving_doors

Ya I think ed Byrne is smart enough and knows the State of play in negotiations.

At the moment theres not a hope the dept will have enough folk to do our s&s. The govt at the moment is repeating the mantra and staying silent.

People are listening to this temporary gesture of goodwill. The govt. Can't stay silent now... Teachers are offering to keep the schools open now (is there a ballot needed for this?).

We all know that the govt. will say no... That's a given.. But now the govt. have to take the flack for ' closing the schools '

It also shows that the govt. are not in favour of equal treatment of LPT.

The_Valeyard

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Ya I think ed Byrne is smart enough and knows the State of play in negotiations.

At the moment theres not a hope the dept will have enough folk to do our s&s. The govt at the moment is repeating the mantra and staying silent.

People are listening to this temporary gesture of goodwill. The govt. Can't stay silent now... Teachers are offering to keep the schools open now (is there a ballot needed for this?).

We all know that the govt. will say no... That's a given.. But now the govt. have to take the flack for ' closing the schools '

It also shows that the govt. are not in favour of equal treatment of LPT.

Makes sense I suppose.

Eintrachtrob

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Ya I think ed Byrne is smart enough and knows the State of play in negotiations.

At the moment theres not a hope the dept will have enough folk to do our s&s. The govt at the moment is repeating the mantra and staying silent.

People are listening to this temporary gesture of goodwill. The govt. Can't stay silent now... Teachers are offering to keep the schools open now (is there a ballot needed for this?).

We all know that the govt. will say no... That's a given.. But now the govt. have to take the flack for ' closing the schools '

It also shows that the govt. are not in favour of equal treatment of LPT.

Yep

On further thought....it could be a case of give em an offer they'll refuse.

Lord TSC

coillsaille wrote: »

I presumed the poster meant the LPTs in the school haven't bothered joining the union so couldn't be put on the rota.

I talked a while back about newly qualified teachers being disillusioned. There's also the fact that if you're struggling for work, the union fee can be one expense too far. And that's also ignoring the fact a hell of a lot of them aren't getting enough work for it to be an issue either.

One thing I don't understand at all is why the unions aren't getting in the door of the training facilities and getting teachers signed up there, making sure every single one is. IMO, the unions should be snapping up every young teacher they can, with heavily reduced rates until the teacher gets working properly. They should be in the college classrooms getting names down. At the very least, the second a new teacher walks in the door of a school, they should be getting a friendly visit.

From anecdotal experience, I worked part time in a TUI school a few years back, for a total of 4 months. Was in 5 days a week, and often sat round where the union rep was. 6 weeks after I started in the school, I thought I may as well join the union, went online and did so. A few days latter, the rep brought it up when a few people were having lunch in a "lol, you joined the union" with an eyeroll, nearly mocking me. And ultimately, when the school opted not to keep me on, I unregistered. Wasn't making the money any more to cover the fee

Again, anecdotal...my brother is a sub teacher in a different school, and has been in 2 or 3 days a week for two years now. No one has ever approached him about joining the union.

From my experience, the unions haven't exactly courted the NQT on any level, and while I know a lot of people don't want to hear it, their actions in past discussions and what they've allowed to happen does little to entice younger teachers into joining...

Eintrachtrob

Also by linking the offer to young teachers and their contracts..... If the DES reject it, then it strengthens the ASTI position of constant attacks on young teachers

I can't see DES accepting it
They want CP hours. Period.

MrJones1973

man_no_plan wrote: »

Unfortunately its not a choice I could have made at the time. Presumably the continued deduction is as a result of the payment going on the scale point so that you would in effect be getting paid less for not doing the s/s. As for the situation now I don't know.

I think the point we are missing here in a bigger scale is that FEMPI is the law and part if FEMPI is the collective agreements. If you're not in then your pay is cut. If you are in then it would be paid.

I think that the s/s is a sideshow. The real issue here was CP hours. The ASTI sold its members a pup in May. They said pull out of Croke Park hours its as simple as that. But its not that simple as we see. Whether there was an agreement or not is both important and not important. Its important to know and to note that it was agreed but its equally important to know that you're in FEMPI or you're in the LRA and there's no provision to be half in or half out.

The position on S/S in the HRA is

As the above annualised payments are in the nature of a pensionable allowance (and are not amenable to current “buy-out” arrangements), the following arrangements shall apply:
‐ A gross additional payment equivalent to the 2011 lower payment rate paid for supervision and substitution will be included in the common basic scale for teachers. This will be included in two moieties with half included in the school year 2016/17 and the second half included in the school year 2017/18.
Such payments to be considered in any future pay negotiation arrangements in respect of teachers. The duties continue to be performed indefinitely. Full document HERE

My own view is this

• The ASTI have had changes at the top and were keen to toughen their stance.
• The JC was rejected in spite of it meeting all of the stated concerns before talks which was seen as a show of strength
• Teachers are annoyed with Croke Park hours - Poor leadership, im not just talking about the union leadership, i'm talking about active members influencing inactive members, gave the impression that rejection of th eCrokp Park Hours was a simple act of voting no.
• The DES warned that the S/S wouln't be paid if the union was not covered by the LRA - the union didn't believe it, DES called the bluff and didn't pay
• The strike action over LPT's as they're called was pandering to a young element that didn't feel well served by the union. This however has now been overshadowed by the S/S row and the closed schools. Now ASTI say they want a timeline to pay equalisation. That is far from what was said at the time of teh vote. Nuacht Says that the vote is because the DES didnt restore the common basic scale before the end of August - the cats and dogs knew this wasn't happening. The impression here is that it is full restoration or bust. This could never have been the case.
• Now we are here, looking at a serious industrial dispute and people are dirtying their pants because they were poorly informed about the consequences of their vote.

The reasons for the action and the concerns are very valid and laudable but I think, as I thought in May, that the ASTI have been foolhardy and have led members up the garden path on this one.

Right now ASTI teachers could be getting paid for S/S and increments, the LPT's could be getting the increments and the improved pay from the TUI INTO deal.

Maybe the action will get the pay commission moving more quickly, maybe there will be a definite timeline put in place after this but that is not what members voted for. S/S paid will come back, CP hours will come back, ?new JC will be accepted, all things the ASTI membership rejected. for that the ASTI leadership should be held to account because they had to know that this would end in compromise but they made it look like they were going to change the whole thing in one go.

I hope that when it's all over the two unions can get working together. The JC dispute was the most effective campaign by the teacher unions in recent times because they had a clear strategy and vision and well constructed arguments with a clear strategy and a clear message on what was the bottom line. The bottom line on these current issues keeps moving.

I disagree with most of this. teacher's ain't morons. We knew where this was going

implausible

scout353 wrote: »

I think a recognition that extra curricular activities should count towards the CP hours and then I wouldn't have an issue with the PT meetings after school and one staff meeting per term.

The PT meetings and staff meetings are covered under a previous agreement, nothing to do with CP (unless in a very large school they're being used to provide extra PTs)

The DES insisted that talks cover all of the gripes including CP hours, JC reform as well as S&S and pay equalisation so this is probably the opportunity to address all the issues once and for all.

I think we will see

- a return to CP hours with the increase of the 5 discretionary hours to 10 or 15.

- Ward report restored

- S&S back to normal

- a commitment to a speedier report from the latest FG quango (Public Service Pay Commission) on Pay restoration which will still take nine to ten months.

So all in all nothing gained really!!!

This is what TUI currently have.

coillsaille

I'm still hoping it's a good move that Ed Byrne made today. Also, after watching the six one coverage just now it does show the union as being reasonable.

MrJones1973

I think eds kite flying is pure pr hold your nerves

petejmk

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

I think eds kite flying is pure pr hold your nerves

Think you're right. Sure how could the union continue to stand over a situation where its members are doing s&s for free while TUI members are paid for it during a campaign focused on pay equality.

MrJones1973

If it was a real war I'd court marital most of ye!

km79

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

I think eds kite flying is pure pr hold your nerves

Upon reflection given how he has performed so far I'm going to give him the benefit on this one now
We will find out tomorrow I've a feeling either way

paddybarry

Why Kieran Christie could not have mention correcting, lesson planning, extra classes and extra curricular activities in response to why teachers cant do an extra hour a week in beyond me.

He was very poor in distinguishing between pay equality and pay restoration.

coillsaille

Although on news now Kieran Christie didn't seem very enthusiastic when asked about Byrne's proposal.

Blueshirttwat

I agree but we should still withdraw from s&s on Monday 7th only. See do they dock our pay. A group of those who opted out could bring test cases to the courts. And a group of those who didn't opt out could go to the labour court to claim the DES broke the HRA.

deiseindublin

Any word on ASTI legal advice?

paddybarry

deiseindublin wrote: »

Any word on ASTI legal advice?

Tomorrow afternoon.

acequion

paddybarry wrote: »

Why Kieran Christie could not have mention correcting, lesson planning, extra classes and extra curricular activities in response to why teachers cant do an extra hour a week in beyond me.

He was very poor in distinguishing between pay equality and pay restoration.

Exactly what I thought! I so wanted to push him out of the way,get in there and tell Sharon NB and hence the country exactly what we all know about those CP hours. A wonderful opportunity missed goddammit!! While Kieran is streets ahead of his predecessor in many ways,his debating skills leave A LOT to be desired.

acequion

Glad to see that people have calmed down re Ed Byrne and the S&S idea. To me it sounds like a clever ploy.

Some people are like a woman who's been cheated on too many times re their trust in the ASTI. Understandable but let's not damn them when they don't and also when they do. And as for this idea of storming off to join TUI!! Like that will solve anything!

MacGyver007

acequion wrote: »

Glad to see that people have calmed down re Ed Byrne and the S&S idea. To me it sounds like a clever ploy.

I agree. Like Eintrachtrob, I am pretty sure that the DES do not want to end up going to the trouble of advertising, interviewing, hiring, vetting and training supervisors, all of which will end up costing them a lot more (in terms of both finance and time) than simply doing the right thing and paying teachers the little that they are rightfully due under HRA. Remember that in recently commencing the advertisement of these positions, it is the DES who have opened this particular can of worms for themselves.

We are only witnessing the opening gambits. I reckon that there is quite a distance to go yet. In the meantime, I feel we must keep faith in our leadership.

MrJones1973

I have not hidden fact I want a long protracted strike . We need a serious offer that takes in middle mgmt posts and Jc. We need near total erosion of croke park hours. The teaching council needs to be curtailed. If we are in school Nov 7 it's a harbinger of a climbdown . If that happens my asti resignation will be in head quarters by Nov 8.
I am like an abused spouse. I admit that

solerina

paddybarry wrote: »

Why Kieran Christie could not have mention correcting, lesson planning, extra classes and extra curricular activities in response to why teachers cant do an extra hour a week in beyond me.

He was very poor in distinguishing between pay equality and pay restoration.

Exactly, an extra hour per week....we all have at least 4 free classes after S&s is taken into account....most of us spend these (along with more time after the final bell) preparing work and correcting work....we already do much more than 1 hour extra per week !!

Eintrachtrob

MacGyver007 wrote: »

I agree. Like Eintrachtrob, I am pretty sure that the DES do not want to end up going to the trouble of advertising, interviewing, hiring, vetting and training supervisors, all of which will end up costing them a lot more (in terms of both finance and time) than simply doing the right thing and paying teachers the little that they are rightfully due under HRA. Remember that in recently commencing the advertisement of these positions, it is the DES who have opened this particular can of worms for themselves.

We are only witnessing the opening gambits. I reckon that there is quite a distance to go yet. In the meantime, I feel we must keep faith in our leadership.

The issue with the DES looking for external supervisors is that it has a sort of permanent look about it (albeit in the short term).

They want us in LRA and doing CP hours. Period.

If external supervisors are appointed, then it probably means that they will have to give up on that for this academic year at least, and possibly until the LRA is entirely over (worst case scenario for them).

From a simple point of view - we have what they want. Withholding money should be no big deal to us, because we've been getting screwed for 8 years by them. Indeed we should not sign up to any deal unless increments and everything else owed is paid & backdated to September.

So we hold the better hand.

One thing we don't do is give them and the media an excuse to attack teachers and divert the issues or muddy the waters.

Are we doing this by committing to ending S&S on November 7th?

Can you imagine Morning Ireland, that w$$nker Kenny on Newstalk, Indo. . . .on Monday Nov 7th if we turn up for work but the students cannot turn up for school?

Therefore we temporarily suspend the S&S directive to neutralise their pay threat, and publicly ask the Minister for a date as to when he'll have supervisors in place - perhaps January 9th?

Suddenly the pay threat is over, we still do the other strikes, Bruton has to go and look for supervisors he doesn't want & expose himself as a hypocrite as he won't be asking them to do CP hours. We stay out of CP, and, we send out a message that when the DES are ready to discuss matters like adults then we'll talk to them.

If not, see out the remaining 6 strikes and see where that leaves us in December.