ASTI OctNov Action *Post 1 for usual plea for restraint Especially New Posters *

MrJones1973

I can see your logic above but schools closing a few weeks Nov 7 will speed a resolution. Its the open ended element. Bruton won't quake over 7 days Would you ? Exactly how can contingency plans work without principals?? They asked not to be excused from action. principals
let's not be Prince Hamlet over this!
If we open Nov 7 we have blinked first.

km79

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

I can see your logic above but schools closing a few weeks Nov 7 will speed a resolution. Its the open ended element. Bruton won't quake over 7 days Would you ? Exactly how can contingency plans work without principals?? They asked not to be excused from action. principals
let's not be prince hamlet over this
If we open Nov 7 we have blinked first

Schools will 100% be open nov 7th in my opinion

MrJones1973

km79 wrote: »

Schools will 100% be open nov 7th in my opinion

Care to wager ?

MrJones1973

Whoever loses steps away from site for six months

km79

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Care to wager ?

No

MrJones1973

km79 wrote: »

No

Fair enough but you can't be that convinced so !

km79

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Fair enough but you can't be that convinced so !

I've a feeling we may have news as early as tomorrow afternoon
Sure we will see but I'll be VERY suprised if schools are not open

boatbuilder

Not sure what all the fuss is about really.
Existing teachers in Youthreach centres are paid 40 euro per hour. New entrants are paid 13.99 per hour. Much worse issues there than what the current strike is about.
Unfortunately the TUI seem to be happy with that arrangement!

deiseindublin

boatbuilder wrote: »

...Much worse issues there than what the current strike is about.
Unfortunately the TUI seem to be happy with that arrangement!

You're not comparing like with like though. TUI don't have a fight in them, they've folded every time they should have stood up to be counted.

feardeas

I've been critical of Ed Byrne before. Thought he did very well with David McCullough tonight. Really showed the nonsense that some CP hours were.

Fair play to him. Fair speed to him.

evolving_doors

feardeas wrote: »

I've been critical of Ed Byrne before. Thought he did very well with David McCullough tonight. Really showed the nonsense that some CP hours were.

Fair play to him. Fair speed to him.

He wasn't afraid to finish his point either and didn't let her interrupt with other whataboutery to muddy the waters.

Richard Bruton pretty much held the line too though!

wirelessdude01

Why don't the two of them just slog it out live on Primetime?

km79

Sounds like the govts substantial offer on the table is basically LRA!
What is their OBSESSION with croke park hours

MrJones1973

The grand old duke of York...he had ten thousand men/teachers ...

Benicetomonty

km79 wrote: »

Sounds like the govts substantial offer on the table is basically LRA!
What is their OBSESSION with croke park hours

They dont care about our hours really because it doesnt save any money for govt. However, it does save a fortune in every other sector in the PS so Bruton cant afford to let teachers away with em.

MrJones1973

Once SC decided to withdraw s and s Nov 7th what exactly did they think would happen? They should have had legal advice by now. Ducks in a row etc. My hope is that they knew Dam well what Bruton would do . If they didn't foresee this then they are clueless but I find it hard to believe they didn't.
If there are no strategic thinkers on SC then we are xXxX but I believe they knew the way this would go. If they didn't then 7 days will achieve very little as we have blinked and government knows we will continue to blink

acequion

I'd rather be out with my picket forever before going back to those awful hours!!

They're obsessed with CP hours because they're obsessed with the LRA. Their entire PS budget seems to hinge on all public servants being part of it. And there's no doubt that worse is in store down the line,in terms of "reform" and that's why they won't yield on those hours. So we really do have to hold tough. We should have held tough years ago but better late than never.

I was also delighted with Ed Byrne. I think he did a great job and really appreciated him telling them that our days go on to 10.30pm. That kind of information so needs to get out there.

implausible

The Govt can't budge on the CP hours, every other public servant would be up in arms. Our 33 per year is paltry compared to some sectors; regardless of what you think of the hours, that's a fact. All they can do is further increase the discretionary ones from the 10 already given to the TUI.

I'm fed up of hearing about this extra hour per week on the radio. The minister is willfully conflating two issues for Joe Public and making it sound like s/s and CP are all the one. Even if CP was as simple as one hour per week, s/s can be three hours per week, so if he wants to bundle them together, the real figure he should be throwing about is four.

Villain

implausible wrote: »

The Govt can't budge on the CP hours, every other public servant would be up in arms. Our 33 per year is paltry compared to some sectors; regardless of what you think of the hours, that's a fact. All they can do is further increase the discretionary ones from the 10 already given to the TUI.

I'm fed up of hearing about this extra hour per week on the radio. The minister is willfully conflating two issues for Joe Public and making it sound like s/s and CP are all the one. Even if CP was as simple as one hour per week, s/s can be three hours per week, so if he wants to bundle them together, the real figure he should be throwing about is four.

Yes but that's then 26 hours in total which to most people in private and public sounds very soft then throw in the 4 months holidays.

Don't get me wrong I know what a teacher has to put up, my wife is one, but the hours story won't win any support. The only hope here is stick to the equality demands.

I can't see how the government can move though without the floodgates opening and the country been in a complete mess.

implausible

Villain wrote: »

Yes but that's then 26 hours in total which to most people in private and public sounds very soft then throw in the 4 months holidays.

Don't get me wrong I know what a teacher has to put up, my wife is one, but the hours story won't win any support. The only hope here is stick to the equality demands.

I can't see how the government can move though without the floodgates opening and the country been in a complete mess.

I agree with you, but where are you getting 26 from?

Villain

implausible wrote: »

I agree with you, but where are you getting 26 from?

22 plus average of the extra, obviously depends on how much S&S is done.

acequion

Villain wrote: »

Yes but that's then 26 hours in total which to most people in private and public sounds very soft then throw in the 4 months holidays.

Don't get me wrong I know what a teacher has to put up, my wife is one, but the hours story won't win any support. The only hope here is stick to the equality demands.

I can't see how the government can move though without the floodgates opening and the country been in a complete mess

Ah come on that's rubbish and you know it. Leave that sort of hyperbole for the Sindo.

Re S&S, just honour the HRA and pay the ASTI teachers.

Re CP hours, just be reasonable,use them to cover essential meetings and allow for the myriad of other things in the rest.

Re pay restoration. Well that shouldn't be just for teachers. They should commit to full pay equality for all PS workers over time. No sector anywhere should accept pay inequality. It's plain wrong. No wonder we frequently lose the best and the brightest to emigration.

implausible

Villain wrote: »

22 plus average of the extra, obviously depends on how much S&S is done.

Have you now. The argument about how many hours per week teachers actually work is never going to be won with some people. But when it comes to CP and s/s, up to four hours extra hours per week is comparable to overtime for Joe Public and is better than our minister dismissing it as teachers whinging about one extra hour. Union leaders aren't clarifying this either.

implausible

acequion wrote: »

Re CP hours, just be reasonable,use them to cover essential meetings and allow for the myriad of other things in the rest.

Do you not think that they are getting there with increasing the flexible hours from 5 to 8 to 10 (in 2017)? Or is it the usage of the flexible ones that's problematic?

I think a lot of the fault lies with principals who are refusing to be creative with them and at the same time not abiding by the guidelines. I've heard of schools where the hours are dictated to staff, where they're used to sit listening to speakers and workshops and where individual teachers are not allowed to count things like subject association meetings and conferences.

acequion

r

implausible wrote: »

Do you not think that they are getting there with increasing the flexible hours from 5 to 8 to 10 (in 2017)? Or is it the usage of the flexible ones that's problematic?

I think a lot of the fault lies with principals who are refusing to be creative with them and at the same time not abiding by the guidelines. I've heard of schools where the hours are dictated to staff, where they're used to sit listening to speakers and workshops and where individual teachers are not allowed to count things like subject association meetings and conferences.

If they go flexible I think they need to go VERY flexible and basically credit teachers for planning,extra tuition,extra curricular,CPD,whatever the teacher wants,whatever the teacher would do anyway. But we know they won't allow that, they want to proscribe,therefore if that's the case I'd prefer to sit in a room with a guest speaker and discreetly mark my work.

Other public servants are not complaining as much about their extra hours because they're basically just doing more of their jobs and let's face it,no job is as intense as teaching,hence the reason they fill our extra hours with other stuff. Truth be told I'd actually rather do an extra 40 mins a week teaching than be made to do some CPD I don't want to do.

oppenheimer1

acequion wrote: »

I'd rather be out with my picket forever before going back to those awful hours!!

They're obsessed with CP hours because they're obsessed with the LRA. Their entire PS budget seems to hinge on all public servants being part of it. And there's no doubt that worse is in store down the line,in terms of "reform" and that's why they won't yield on those hours. So we really do have to hold tough. We should have held tough years ago but better late than never.

I was also delighted with Ed Byrne. I think he did a great job and really appreciated him telling them that our days go on to 10.30pm. That kind of information so needs to get out there.

The teacher whose day goes on to 10:30pm every day is the absolute rarity - if they even exist at all.

Any teachers I've had were out the door at 4pm, Test setting and correcting was done during free periods and lesson plans were carried over from year to year. Notes on subjects they had for students were a collection of materials they acquired over they years, with some blatantly cogged from other teachers.

The idea that teachers are devoted slaves to the job is nonsense union propaganda and does nothing to serve their cause - because its generally untrue and known by everyone to be untrue.

implausible

acequion wrote:

If they go flexible I think they need to go VERY flexible and basically credit teachers for planning,extra tuition,extra curricular,CPD,whatever the teacher wants,whatever the teacher would do anyway. But we know they won't allow that, they want to proscribe,therefore if that's the case I'd prefer to sit in a room with a guest speaker and discreetly mark my work.

Planning and CPD are already allowed for in the flexible hours. But you're right, extra tuition and extra curricular should count too.

acequion wrote:

Other public servants are not complaining as much about their extra hours because they're basically just doing more of their jobs and let's face it,no job is as intense as teaching,hence the reason they fill our extra hours with other stuff. Truth be told I'd actually rather do an extra 40 mins a week teaching than be made to do some CPD I don't want to do.

I'd imagine a lot of people are the same, an extra class could be easier.

I still stand by my point though that it's principals not using the hours creatively and not consulting with staff that has exacerbated the resentment towards them.

acequion

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

The teacher whose day goes on to 10:30pm every day is the absolute rarity - if they even exist at all.

Any teachers I've had were out the door at 4pm, Test setting and correcting was done during free periods and lesson plans were carried over from year to year. Notes on subjects they had for students were a collection of materials they acquired over they years, with some blatantly cogged from other teachers.

The idea that teachers are devoted slaves to the job is nonsense union propaganda and does nothing to serve their cause - because its generally untrue and known by everyone to be untrue.

You went to school so you're an expert on the nature of a teacher's job,right?

You also think teachers are living in a time warp,so whatever way they were whenever you were at school,that must be exactly how they are now! You're clearly oblivious to the fact that schools and teacher's working conditions have changed dramatically even in the last five years.That small little fact probably never entered into the tunnel of your vision.

And your bitter tone and obvious bigotry towards all teachers as seen in your ridiculous,sweeping statements really is quite pathetic.

I wouldn't even bother replying but I happened to be having a last look here for the night having just finished marking a set of tests,right now at 12.55am.

But I suppose I don't exist.

Do toddle on and bore someone else with your startling gems of wisdom.

implausible

oppenheimer1 wrote:

Any teachers I've had were out the door at 4pm, Test setting and correcting was done during free periods and lesson plans were carried over from year to year. Notes on subjects they had for students were a collection of materials they acquired over they years, with some blatantly cogged from other teachers.

You followed them all home and observed them in the staffroom then? Apart from the fact that free classes have been decimated, that the curricula are ever-changing and that teaching by simply handing out notes isn't best practice, do you seriously think that teachers can keep on top of a workload with 40 minutes of a free class?

Think about it - 30 students' copies to be marked in 40 minutes, less than a minute and a half per copy. I'm not even going to bring in the classic example of an English essay, but do you think that those copies from one (out of a possible 7 or 8) class can be done in that time or in even triple that time - 120 minutes gives 4 minutes per copy to be read, assessed and a comment written.

Please don't come on here and give us the retrospective view of a teenage student who only saw the profession from the back of a classroom. I wouldn't presume to know the ins and outs of anyone's job, especially if it was solely based on my impressions as a fifteen year old.

oppenheimer1

post delete due to off topic, and unnecessary flaming.
Please don't post here again until you agree to abide by the charter. These I'll informed tirades are unhelpful. There are other fora more suitable.
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