ASTI OctNov Action *Post 1 for usual plea for restraint Especially New Posters *

political analyst

judeboy101 wrote: »

Schools were smaller, discipline was more direct and less jerry the giraffe.:D

What evidence is there that it has been made more difficult to discipline unruly pupils?

By the way, where did you get "jerry the giraffe" from?

km79

coillsaille wrote: »

Standing committee have finished their meeting with no change in position. They have taken legal advice on the wage docking but are seeking further clarification after Wednesday's circular from DES.

Jesus h
They have had long enough to get legal advice on this
It was flagged weeks ago

paddybarry

km79 wrote: »

Jesus h
They have had long enough to get legal advice on this
It was flagged weeks ago

Problem is all you can get is advice. There is no test case, and until there is one taken, then you can't say for definite what the correct answer is.

paddybarry

political analyst wrote: »

What evidence is there that it has been made more difficult to discipline unruly pupils?

By the way, where did you get "jerry the giraffe" from?

Seriously, go off and do the PME for yourself.

judeboy101

Millem wrote: »

What annoys me is that we so many hours ourselves that can't be used towards Croke park. I wish the gov would just let each of us choose how we do our CP. We were given a blank sheet on it and told to record the s and s classes we covered. Why can't we just be handed another sheet and record CP hours. Like eg a teacher going to subject association conference, after school pdst courses, online courses, extra curricular activities, organising school events, even giving extra classss (which happens a lot in my school) etc etc.
Instead in our school is it meetings or guest speakers that are a waste of time.

Its because you already do it for free. Why would they "pay" you for doing it. If every teacher stopped doing extra curri, cpd etc in the morn the gov would soon come knocking. But we wont.

judeboy101

political analyst wrote: »

What evidence is there that it has been made more difficult to discipline unruly pupils?

By the way, where did you get "jerry the giraffe" from?

Heard some girl at a branch meeting talk about some self awareness speaker that came in for CP. The staff were "introduced" to some stuffed giraffe abomination. I thought she was pulling the piss until another fella sad same thing had happened in his school.

Rossdoc81

Had a meeting in our school today and everyone (all ASTI school) decided not to sign the form, and that we will arrive to the school on 7th of November whether we are locked out or not. The BOM meets next week to make the decision on whether to open or not.

evolving_doors

Rossdoc81 wrote: »

Had a meeting in our school today and everyone (all ASTI school) decided not to sign the form, and that we will arrive to the school on 7th of November whether we are locked out or not. The BOM meets next week to make the decision on whether to open or not.

Pretty much the same here.

Everyone showing up for work.
Dunno are non union going to sign the form, even though the school gates are going to be locked.

It's simple at this stage. The mission is to break the union. The JMB is issuing 'directives' to it's own members like a defacto-union and advising members to leave the ASTI.

I reckon the ASTI will recommend we all show up for work on 7th... then march into Dublin city en mass. That's if richard bruton keeps repeating the mantra and nothing else progresses.

Enda says there's not the resources.. Yet they have a budget allocated for it + have the budget to pay strangers over the odds indefinitely + have the budget in LR.
Yet he's gave the unprecedented ok to the setting up of the Mary Robinson Foundation in guess where?... Mayo! The cost is approx 9million which includes a nice tax credit for Mary of 2m as she 'gifted' the papers to the state (look at your own P21's and see what your tax credit is) + the purchase of her brothers house in Mayo to house the collection. Previously, presidents just handed them over to state archives for free.
Yet the 'new entrant' TD's didn't arrive in on a lower payscale like our junior colleagues did twice.

maude6868

The ASTI already issued a letter to schools which states all teachers are to turn up for work on the 7th. It was on our notice board at school.

feardeas

coillsaille wrote:

Standing committee have finished their meeting with no change in position. They have taken legal advice on the wage docking but are seeking further clarification after Wednesday's circular from DES.

I can't see how they couldn't have got this advice since blast May. I'm wondering whether a deal is more or less reached and this is all shadow boxing and window dressing. Or perhaps the legal advice doesn't hold good news which would mean that this is going to be an unmitigated disaster.

Nobody, irrespective of how we voted, wants the latter.

maude6868

I asked this question during the summer because I could see there could be this very scenario. The answer I got was that the Dept did not indicate that we wouldn't be paid and this was considered good enough as an answer.

evolving_doors

feardeas wrote: »

I can't see how they couldn't have got this advice since blast May. I'm wondering whether a deal is more or less reached and this is all shadow boxing and window dressing. Or perhaps the legal advice doesn't hold good news which would mean that this is going to be an unmitigated disaster.

Nobody, irrespective of how we voted, wants the latter.

Forget about the legal advice... it's just that, advice...in these cases nobody knows how it will play out in a court, but rest assured legal council on both sides will recommend going forward with a case (and billing for their time accordingly:)).

Icsics

coillsaille wrote: »

Standing committee have finished their meeting with no change in position. They have taken legal advice on the wage docking but are seeking further clarification after Wednesday's circular from DES.

What about the 'opt out' teachers in closed schools?

judeboy101

Icsics wrote: »

What about the 'opt out' teachers in closed schools?

As an ASTI member who has voted to pull out of the s&s scheme, the dept assume you are opting out of the opt out scheme (which was supposedly un-opt outable) which you signed up to til you retire.

feardeas

Gebgbegb wrote:

Forget about the legal advice... it's just that, advice...in these cases nobody knows how it will play out in a court, but rest assured legal council on both sides will recommend going forward with a case (and billing for their time accordingly ).

In cases like this the advice is key. It's why the pension levy etc were not challenged because the advice was that it was worthless to do so. This isn't a case of taking action for whiplash.

evolving_doors

feardeas wrote: »

In cases like this the advice is key. It's why the pension levy etc were not challenged because the advice was that it was worthless to do so. This isn't a case of taking action for whiplash.

But I reckon even if best ASTI advice is that the money shouldn't be deducted, will the dept cease the deduction? Or kick the legal can down the road for a few months? It's not as if a politician has to pay legal costs from their own pocket.
Anyway, I'll still present for work on that day though... If you are an opt out its especially important to present. Regardless of others, it's definitely a lockout if they aren't allowed in (in my legal opinion )

worseforwear

Pursefan wrote: »

I teach in a voluntary secondary school who employ a number of non teaching staff to supervise at lunchtime. We would be able to employ them during the day to cover the SnS rots but our principal will not even consider it at BOM level. The JMB want to close the schools so to force the two sides together.

And who do you anticipate would organise the roster in the mornings?

acequion

My school is closing,decision taken by BOM.

So where does that leave us.the staff? Do we show up regardless?

I honestly cannot fathom how it could be legal to not pay those whose BOMs took the decision to close. That just cannot be legal. And if someone in this banana republic deems that it is,then we have a new fight on our hands for sure.

km79

worseforwear wrote: »

And who do you anticipate would organise the roster in the mornings?

The secretary ?

evolving_doors

km79 wrote: »

The secretary ?

I bet you'll find that the secretary will be instructed not to organise the rota.
The JMB want to close the schools. Either the ASTI teachers do it unpaid, or nobody does it!

worseforwear

Not very fair to ask the secretary to pick up the slack. Either the teachers want to take a stand or not. They would be more than happy to have the school closed so long as they got paid. However when they realised wouldn't get paid, they expect others to facilitate keeping the school open.
I've read most of the posts in this discussion and a couple of items stand out for me.
1. The big gripe seems to be more about doing the croke park hours than the sns. I whole heartedly agree that having meetings and guest speakers for the sake of it is nothing but punisment for everybody. There are 15 to 20 hours required for school planning for the proper running of the school. Teachers should then be given credit for much of the voluntary and extra curricular they do. However managing and verifying this would be very complicated. I know a good few teachers who didn't complete any of the 5 discretionary hours last year and that in turn causes reluctance to allow flexibility.
2. There are virtually no comments regarding the impact on the students of having the schools closed indefinitely. , and what ramifications might this have on the school as a whole. Just my observation

judeboy101

worseforwear wrote: »

Not very fair to ask the secretary to pick up the slack. Either the teachers want to take a stand or not. They would be more than happy to have the school closed so long as they got paid. However when they realised wouldn't get paid, they expect others to facilitate keeping the school open.
I've read most of the posts in this discussion and a couple of items stand out for me.
1. The big gripe seems to be more about doing the croke park hours than the sns. I whole heartedly agree that having meetings and guest speakers for the sake of it is nothing but punisment for everybody. There are 15 to 20 hours required for school planning for the proper running of the school. Teachers should then be given credit for much of the voluntary and extra curricular they do. However managing and verifying this would be very complicated. I know a good few teachers who didn't complete any of the 5 discretionary hours last year and that in turn causes reluctance to allow flexibility.
2. There are virtually no comments regarding the impact on the students of having the schools closed indefinitely. , and what ramifications might this have on the school as a whole. Just my observation

The reason no comments re effect on students is that there will be no effect on students beyond them having a few more days holiday. We are not taking this action in may and threatening the sec with withdrawal from corrections. Students are tough and most teachers i know with 6th years hv sent their kids away with something to do over the next few weeks. The world wont end, sure aren't the media always telling us the the LC isn't the be all and end all.

evolving_doors

worseforwear wrote: »

Not very fair to ask the secretary to pick up the slack. Either the teachers want to take a stand or not. They would be more than happy to have the school closed so long as they got paid. However when they realised wouldn't get paid, they expect others to facilitate keeping the school open.
I've read most of the posts in this discussion and a couple of items stand out for me.
1. The big gripe seems to be more about doing the croke park hours than the sns. I whole heartedly agree that having meetings and guest speakers for the sake of it is nothing but punisment for everybody. There are 15 to 20 hours required for school planning for the proper running of the school. Teachers should then be given credit for much of the voluntary and extra curricular they do. However managing and verifying this would be very complicated. I know a good few teachers who didn't complete any of the 5 discretionary hours last year and that in turn causes reluctance to allow flexibility.
2. There are virtually no comments regarding the impact on the students of having the schools closed indefinitely. , and what ramifications might this have on the school as a whole. Just my observation

On the second point, it has been mentioned that teachers value all students (not just exam years). So if you run down the profession it will affect thousands of students for years to come. See UK with Teach First and the rate of attrition for new teachers. How good can that be for a school if a % of your staff are leaving every year. Just because it hasn't been mentioned in this thread doesn't mean it hasn't been discussed by most of the posters before.

I think parents are behind the ASTI action too (but admittedly up to a point in time...)

coillsaille

"worseforwear wrote: »

2. There are virtually no comments regarding the impact on the students of having the schools closed indefinitely. , and what ramifications might this have on the school as a whole. Just my observation

This one, (no 1 was rational) is a bit infuriating. There are no comments about it because all teachers on this forum know that the impact on students is the biggest discouragement for industrial action that causes school closures. No teacher worth their salt wants to lose any class time, with a state exam year class especially.
The thing is though the students are in the secondary system for 5 years. The teachers are in it for 35-40 years.
But more importantly there's the students and teachers of the years ahead.

km79

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I bet you'll find that the secretary will be instructed not to organise the rota.
The JMB want to close the schools. Either the ASTI teachers do it unpaid, or nobody does it!

Will be ? The next working day is Monday week and as far as I am aware they have not been ? They have their own union ?

worseforwear

coillsaille wrote: »

This one, (no 1 was rational) is a bit infuriating. There are no comments about it because all teachers on this forum know that the impact on students is the biggest discouragement for industrial action that causes school closures. No teacher worth their salt wants to lose any class time, with a state exam year class especially The thing is though the students are in the secondary system for 5 years. The teachers are in it for 35-40 years. But more importantly there's the students and teachers of the years ahead.

I agree, however I don't think teachers are doing themselves justice in this discussion. Much of the tone gives the impression that they would be content to sit back for as long as it takes despite the impact on students and the school in a wider context. Don't ask me to do cpark hours, don't ask me to do Sns , just let me teach my classes. Unfortunately the life of a school requires much more than this. Many teachers will no doubt give of there own time to make up lost tuition time, however this doesn't come across in the discussion.
Yes students are in school for 5 years but it's their one opportunity at 2nd level education, and teachers are getting paid during their 35-40 years, so I don't think this part of the argument stands up.

My view overall is that members have been very poorly advised by the ASTI leadership. It was presented as don't agree to lansdowne road and you won't have to do CPark.
Very few teachers were made fully aware of the consequences of the rejection. I.e. Loss of increments, still in fempi, loss of sns payments and loss of ward report benefits.
CID's were pushed from 2 years to 4 yrs
That certainly wasn't helping younger teachers.

I'm just a little sceptical of the leadership's motives

2011abc

Scepticism suggests an element of doubt .Previous leadership was 100% anti teacher government supporters so I'm happy to give them a shot .

coillsaille

worseforwear wrote: »

I agree, however I don't think teachers are doing themselves justice in this discussion. Much of the tone gives the impression that they would be content to sit back for as long as it takes despite the impact on students and the school in a wider context. Don't ask me to do cpark hours, don't ask me to do Sns , just let me teach my classes. Unfortunately the life of a school requires much more than this. Many teachers will no doubt give of there own time to make up lost tuition time, however this doesn't come across in the discussion.
Yes students are in school for 5 years but it's their one opportunity at 2nd level education, and teachers are getting paid during their 35-40 years, so I don't think this part of the argument stands up.

My view overall is that members have been very poorly advised by the ASTI leadership. It was presented as don't agree to lansdowne road and you won't have to do CPark.
Very few teachers were made fully aware of the consequences of the rejection. I.e. Loss of increments, still in fempi, loss of sns payments and loss of ward report benefits.
CID's were pushed from 2 years to 4 yrs
That certainly wasn't helping younger teachers.

I'm just a little sceptical of the leadership's motives

Well you can make a reasoned and logical arguement, which is good to see round here these days given some of the folks that have been popping in.
You say teachers aren't doing themselves justice in this discussion, well it has been a very long discussion but I think many teachers have made some very insightful and informed contributions.
You may think the tone is devil may care, but believe me it's not. I for one, and many others here, am just dreading the late evenings to come when I have to give my LCs extra classes after school to make up for classes lost through closures. I'm not looking forward to it, but I don't think twice about doing it - we're teachers it's what we do. Neither is anyone looking forward to losing pay, but we can't just keep rolling over and accepting a continuous degradation of our profession.
You say the discussion suggests we want no CP hours, but if you read through this thread you will see that we all accept the principle of non-paid overtime hours. Most of us just think we should use those overtime hours more effectively.
Your point about "don't ask me to do SnS" is just ridiculous. We have been doing SnS for years and we were quite happy to continue doing it for years to come. But we are not going to be made complete eejits of - if other teachers are getting paid for doing it and we're not...

You say students only have one shot at their future and you are correct. But if we just focus on the future of the current students then who focuses on the future students? Who takes a stand against the erosion of the status and standing of the profession of teaching, which will be naturally followed by a decline in the quality of graduates attracted to it. So as well as being fully cognizant that the current students have one opportunity at 2nd level, we're also thinking of future students' one opportunity.
So I don't really accept your argument on this.

km79

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/garda-pay-dispute-new-pre-shift-payment-offered-1.2847581

gardai to be offered extra pay for the 15 minute period BEFORE they start their shift...........

judeboy101

km79 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/garda-pay-dispute-new-pre-shift-payment-offered-1.2847581

gardai to be offered extra pay for the 15 minute period BEFORE they start their shift...........

If the guards are that easily bought then its no wonder the kinahans will never be caught