ASTI OctNov Action *Post 1 for usual plea for restraint Especially New Posters *

evolving_doors

km79 wrote: »

Here is one for ye...........I think I am right in saying the guards stopped doing Croke Park hours last January ?????
I ask because i have not seen ONE mention anywhere in any article about the discussions or in any statement from Ministers about the mandatory return of these hours immediately before any extra payments are received ??????

Good question:pac: I'll have to get back to you on that.
I'm also wondering that if they vote to accept then are they 'in' lansdowne road?
or is it Lansdowne Road 1.1 . I'd imagine they would have to do the CP hours then.

I don't think the full details are available yet.

TheDriver

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Good question:pac: I'll have to get back to you on that.
I'm also wondering that if they vote to accept then are they 'in' lansdowne road?
or is it Lansdowne Road 1.1 . I'd imagine they would have to do the CP hours then.

I don't think the full details are available yet.

Or ultimately reject it? Sounds like the exec is undecided itself, never mind the members

deiseindublin

They got a good deal but interesting to see the exec vote 20:17, I'd say it's not definite that members will go for it.

political analyst

Is it the case that ASTI members would go back to doing CP hours only if a revised version of LRA was accepted in an ASTI ballot?

km79

political analyst wrote: »

Is it the case that ASTI members would go back to doing CP hours only if a revised version of LRA was accepted in an ASTI ballot?

Yes
The case with the guards is unclear.......they stopped doing them TEN MONTHS ago and yet there was no mention whatsoever of the increases being dependent on scones job with them
Meanwhile Bruton says teachers will not get paid for 2 years worth of s and s delivered under HRA unless Croke park hours are complied with under LRA
What are your views on this ?

political analyst

km79 wrote: »

Yes
The case with the guards is unclear.......they stopped doing them TEN MONTHS ago and yet there was no mention whatsoever of the increases being dependent on scones job with them
Meanwhile Bruton says teachers will not get paid for 2 years worth of s and s delivered under HRA unless Croke park hours are complied with under LRA
What are your views on this ?

It's a difficult call.

I acknowledge that the CP hours have created difficulties in teachers' lives. Although those hours don't save money in education, the problem is that other public-sector workers wouldn't have accepted the extra hours if teachers hadn't. I'm simply playing devil's advocate on that issue.

As for the payment of S&S, it's leverage that the Department wouldn't have if ASTI members hadn't voted to take industrial action back in 2000. Presumably, teachers assigned to do supervision at break-time would not be assigned to do it on days where they had no free period in their timetable. Therefore, they could have a break during that free period on that day. Lunchtime supervision could be done by having one group of teachers supervise the first-half of the lunch break and another group supervising the second-half of the lunch break.

Secondary teachers were probably better off back in 2000 than they are now.

ethical

Why dont the Union take a case ,like the doctors did ,(the docs won their case over wages) and sort out this S&S mess out once and for all.Its unbelievable that we are hours away from a majority shutdown of schools and still talks are on going......if you are to believe .......

km79

political analyst wrote: »

It's a difficult call.

I acknowledge that the CP hours have created difficulties in teachers' lives. Although those hours don't save money in education, the problem is that other public-sector workers wouldn't have accepted the extra hours if teachers hadn't. I'm simply playing devil's advocate on that issue.

As for the payment of S&S, it's leverage that the Department wouldn't have if ASTI members hadn't voted to take industrial action back in 2000. Presumably, teachers assigned to do supervision at break-time would not be assigned to do it on days where they had no free period in their timetable. Therefore, they could have a break during that free period on that day. Lunchtime supervision could be done by having one group of teachers supervise the first-half of the lunch break and another group supervising the second-half of the lunch break.

Secondary teachers were probably better off back in 2000 than they are now.

I meant what are your views on the guards NOT doing CP hours for almost a year and then getting more money with no mention of doing/not having done said hours?
Surely they "repudiated " the LRA they signed up to?

Mardy Bum

political analyst wrote: »

.

Secondary teachers were probably better off back in 2000 than they are now.

That is an understatement.

political analyst

km79 wrote: »

I meant what are your views on the guards NOT doing CP hours for almost a year and then getting more money with no mention of doing/not having done said hours?
Surely they "repudiated " the LRA they signed up to?

I suspect that, legally, their "repudiation" is not the same because they are legally barred from taking official industrial action, i.e. no ballot.

feardeas

judeboy101 wrote: »

Technically if you've received notification that your school is closed on Monday are you not already in a lock out situation? Even if things change the fact your BOM sent you that letter shows the contempt they have for the goodwill you've shown the school over the years when they won't reciprocate it by giving you access to your workplace.

Fair point but at the end of the day there are some certainties. One, this will be resolved as all disputes are. Two, we are teachers and have the best interests of our students at heart. There are few schools where there is no tension but we get on with our jobs. Not saying that a case of not being able to enter schools doesn't escalate tension beyond belief but we still have a job to do. Lots of us will be far too occupied with our jobs to be nursing grievances, no matter how justified they might be.

km79

political analyst wrote: »

I suspect that, legally, their "repudiation" is not the same because they are legally barred from taking official industrial action, i.e. no ballot.

It's not the same as we didn't sign up to the agreement to repudiate it

Funny how this is constantly ignored by all and sundry

Spiro66

Apparently ICTU signed on our behalf even before we balloted. If we are still in ICTU we are bound by the collective agreement. I'd say it's time to leave ICTU as this will be our fate in all future agreements.

man_no_plan

km79 wrote: »

It's not the same as we didn't sign up to the agreement to repudiate it

Funny how this is constantly ignored by all and sundry

Acceptance of this agreement would bring the guards into the LRA. I think its repudiated by not signing up.

judeboy101

Spiro66 wrote: »

Apparently ICTU signed on our behalf even before we balloted. If we are still in ICTU we are bound by the collective agreement. I'd say it's time to leave ICTU as this will be our fate in all future agreements.

Did we not say to ictu we would not be bound by the majority decision at congress?

man_no_plan

judeboy101 wrote: »

Did we not say to ictu we would not be bound by the majority decision at congress?

You did yes, you're not in LRA. End of story. This gas been a historical problem with teachers bring carried into agreements by the majority of the PSC of ICTU.

man_no_plan

A lot of talk about this gardai deal being outside of the LRA etc.

Could the INTO TUI deal be looked at in the same light? It gives more money to new entrants regardless.

Impact, CPSU, INMO all on the radio this morning saying we'd need to get a successor agreement underway soon ad the guards are getting more. I didn't hear much about it when the teachers got the money in august or September, maybe I missed it.

On this point, is it time for us to take a big picture view and look at the situation in schools generally rather than at out pay packets,?

Would we better off getting an extra allocation of secretarial and support staff like classroom and lab assistants , better buildings and an investment in decent technology to make our jobs easier or just take the money and run?

judeboy101

man_no_plan wrote: »

A lot of talk about this gardai deal being outside of the LRA etc.

Could the INTO TUI deal be looked at in the same light? It gives more money to new entrants regardless.

Impact, CPSU, INMO all on the radio this morning saying we'd need to get a successor agreement underway soon ad the guards are getting more. I didn't hear much about it when the teachers got the money in august or September, maybe I missed it.

On this point, is it time for us to take a big picture view and look at the situation in schools generally rather than at out pay packets,?

Would we better off getting an extra allocation of secretarial and support staff like classroom and lab assistants , better buildings and an investment in decent technology to make our jobs easier or just take the money and run?

Tui/into involved productivity and changes to management structures going fwd.

And we need to take every penny we can get now because you cant bring it with ya!!

man_no_plan

Theres a woman on liveline now ASTI member. Says the dispute is all about JC!!

worseforwear

judeboy101 wrote: »

Technically if you've received notification that your school is closed on Monday are you not already in a lock out situation? Even if things change the fact your BOM sent you that letter shows the contempt they have for the goodwill you've shown the school over the years when they won't reciprocate it by giving you access to your workplace.

What planet are you on judeboy? This is not a lockout by the BOM. This is a situation entirely fueled by the ASTI. Your presumption that everybody is I'm the wrong except the asti is well wide of the mark. I'm sure that a fair number would be more than happy to sit it out until christmas so long as they could collect wages. When they realised that there pay would be stopped, it's the fault of the DES BOM AND JMB that the school would be closed.
The BOM are voluntary members and are not out to make life difficult for teachers. Why would the Board expose itself and the school to a potential situation or a claim that could threaten the future of the school? They have to take into account the bigger picture not just the staffroom sweeping gripes.
The ASTI record of progressing education is poor. The TUI are making progress with the new Jcert and within lansdowne because the have a bit of cop on, not because people on this forum this they don't have a backbone.
The DES will sit this one out
It will be interesting to see at what point the Asti leadership will recognise they need to come back from the cliff.

Member warned for underlined comment. Please see Post 1 on questioning planetary origin of other members. Ta
MOD

Mardy Bum

man_no_plan wrote: »

Theres a woman on liveline now ASTI member. Says the dispute is all about JC!!

Anyone who willfully rings liveline doesn't deserved to be listened to.

judeboy101

worseforwear wrote: »

What planet are you on judeboy? This is not a lockout by the BOM. This is a situation entirely fueled by the ASTI. Your presumption that everybody is I'm the wrong except the asti is well wide of the mark. I'm sure that a fair number would be more than happy to sit it out until christmas so long as they could collect wages. When they realised that there pay would be stopped, it's the fault of the DES BOM AND JMB that the school would be closed.
The BOM are voluntary members and are not out to make life difficult for teachers. Why would the Board expose itself and the school to a potential situation or a claim that could threaten the future of the school? They have to take into account the bigger picture not just the staffroom sweeping gripes.
The ASTI record of progressing education is poor. The TUI are making progress with the new Jcert and within lansdowne because the have a bit of cop on, not because people on this forum this they don't have a backbone.
The DES will sit this one out
It will be interesting to see at what point the Asti leadership will recognise they need to come back from the cliff.

Bom's could allow access to the workplace for teachers as they did in the 00's but managerial bodies have too much sway nowadays. Its naïve to think that BOM's are innocent pawns. Every jmb school is issusing the exact same letters to parents and teachers about closures. Bom have choice to ignore advice they choose not to.volunteers? Mayb the parents and teachers reps but the trustee reps are either bom lifers or moved around from school to school.

Icsics

judeboy101 wrote: »

Bom's could allow access to the workplace for teachers as they did in the 00's but managerial bodies have too much sway nowadays. Its naïve to think that BOM's are innocent pawns. Every jmb school is issusing the exact same letters to parents and teachers about closures. Bom have choice to ignore advice they choose not to.volunteers? Mayb the parents and teachers reps but the trustee reps are either bom lifers or moved around from school to school.

Completely agree with this. The JMB are functioning as a defacto union for management & issuing mini directives. They also advised principals to have all pt meetings & staff meetings outside school time this term, hoping to have CP hours back in by the time the inside school ones came along.

man_no_plan

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Anyone who willfully rings liveline doesn't deserved to be listened to.

Granted. But the point is that there's an ASTI member who is grossly misinformed spreading their misinformation. Its not unique to ASTI but helps nobody when this is going on.

judeboy101

man_no_plan wrote: »

Granted. But the point is that there's an ASTI member who is grossly misinformed spreading their misinformation. Its not unique to ASTI but helps nobody when this is going on.

If she was let do our negotiations we'd have confessed to killing Kennedy and agreed to turn over our first born for sacrifice by merkl and junker.

TheDriver

man_no_plan wrote: »

On this point, is it time for us to take a big picture view and look at the situation in schools generally rather than at out pay packets,?

Would we better off getting an extra allocation of secretarial and support staff like classroom and lab assistants , better buildings and an investment in decent technology to make our jobs easier or just take the money and run?

In theory yes but we won't all get nice new buildings or extra secretarial staff. Conditions and pay are the hardest fought battle whereas Govt loves opening new buildings

Rossdoc81

Bring on the mayhem! We just need to sit back early next week, watch the chaos unfold, then wait for the Department and BOM's to try to sort it all out. The more chaotic it gets the better for us. We have seen with the Garda strike you will only get somewhere when you are ready to cause havoc.

Ignore public opinion, I'd rather be hated by the public and have good working conditions, then be loved and go into school everyday hating what teaching has become.

worseforwear

judeboy101 wrote: »

Bom's could allow access to the workplace for teachers as they did in the 00's but managerial bodies have too much sway nowadays. Its naïve to think that BOM's are innocent pawns. Every jmb school is issusing the exact same letters to parents and teachers about closures. Bom have choice to ignore advice they choose not to.volunteers? Mayb the parents and teachers reps but the trustee reps are either bom lifers or moved around from school to school.

The point is that BOM cannot have students on the premises without adequate supervision, there are insurance implications. That's not a lock out. If students aren't in school then the DES won't pay teachers. Thats not the board's or the JMB'S fault. That's the asti's fault for negotiating that Haddington Rd agreement where sns became a core duty.
Now the asti leadership have marched the membership to the top of the hill on sns without even realising that the DES could take refuse to pay teachers.
I'm sure you will be allowed into the staffroom on monday where the biggest issue facing will be who will provide milk and biscuits after your week off.

Inspector Coptoor

worseforwear wrote: »

The point is that BOM cannot have students on the premises without adequate supervision, there are insurance implications. That's not a lock out. If students aren't in school then the DES won't pay teachers. Thats not the board's or the JMB'S fault. That's the asti's fault for negotiating that Haddington Rd agreement where sns became a core duty.
Now the asti leadership have marched the membership to the top of the hill on sns without even realising that the DES could take refuse to pay teachers.
I'm sure you will be allowed into the staffroom on monday where the biggest issue facing will be who will provide milk and biscuits after your week off.

Your points are valid.
The thinly veiled dig at the end was unnecessary.

You say it's the ASTI's fault for marching us to the top of the hill.
The HRA is over - that's our reading of it.

We don't view S&S as part of core duties.

I'm willing to not be paid for all of next week.

It's not our fault the goverment won't pay us €796 as they promised.
They've given new Gardai up to €6000 as of yesterday.

I really hope the union leadership dig in now and don't bottle it

Millem

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Your points are valid.
The thinly veiled dog at the end was unnecessary.

You say it's the ASTI's fault for marching us to the top of the hill.
The HRA is over - that's our reading of it.

We don't view S&S as part of core duties.

I'm willing to not be paid for all of next week.

It's not our fault the goverment won't pay us €796 as they promised.
They've given new Gardai up to €6000 as of yesterday.

I really hope the union leadership dig in now and don't bottle it

Is the rent allowance tax free?