ASTI OctNov Action *Post 1 for usual plea for restraint Especially New Posters *

stanley1980

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

I'm the same Age as you give or take.
I'm the Steward in my school and regularly attend branch meetings.

Your "points" are very unfair on "older", "settled" teachers who all took pay cuts, USC and pension levy since 2010.

No teacher voted for any of this.

Are you aware that striking wasn't an option when a union is inside a the collective agreements of the CPA, HRA and LRA?

THATS why there was no strike until now.

You really need to get that chip off your shoulder.

Any young teacher joining the TUI is taking the soup so to speak.
They are being extremely myopic and opting to take some more money now instead of fighting the corner for better money for the duration of their careers.
I can see why they would do it but I don't agree with it.

This is my 11th year teaching.
I got my CID after year 9.
I know what it's like to have no security of tenure.

I can't understand how you can slag off the credibility of the ASTI, the ONLY union doing any fighting and forgoing and pay by striking.

As soon as the Gardai got a bit of cash, the other unions like vultures come circling.
They want all the benefits without doing any of the grunt work.

What a cop out. Why couldn't they leave? If people had felt strongly enough on the issue they could and would have. They didn't leave because it simply wasn't a big enough issue for the bulk of members at that time.

Your "points" are very unfair on "older", "settled" teachers who all took pay cuts, USC and pension levy since 2010. As did the rest of the country I think you'll find ! Again, not once in any of the schools I've worked in and it's been a few, did I ever hear the issue of young teachers brought up in meetings by staff. Not once. The talk was always of Croke Park Hours and lack of progression. People in the unions of a certain vintage need to have an honest look at themselves and ask why their membership has dwindled.

By the way, it took me 9 years to get CID too and I thank my lucky stars everyday for it! My thoughts are with all the young people going from school to school each year, perennially scratching around for a few hours. Those who've had to move abroad (as I did myself) and those who've had to find new careers (did that too). Listening now to some people 'pretend' they care about them is beyond galling- you'll more likely hear them complain about having to teach CSPE or heaven forbid have to cover 20 mins of a break-time or a couple of classes a week for absent colleagues. Teachers in Ireland really don't know how handy they have it!

amacca

stanley1980 wrote: »

Teachers in Ireland really don't know how handy they have it!

You poor thing... I think you must be suffering from stockholm syndrome!

Eintrachtrob

stanley1980 wrote: »

What a cop out. Why couldn't they leave? If people had felt strongly enough on the issue they could and would have. They didn't leave because it simply wasn't a big enough issue for the bulk of members at that time.

Your "points" are very unfair on "older", "settled" teachers who all took pay cuts, USC and pension levy since 2010. As did the rest of the country I think you'll find ! Again, not once in any of the schools I've worked in and it's been a few, did I ever hear the issue of young teachers brought up in meetings by staff. Not once. The talk was always of Croke Park Hours and lack of progression. People in the unions of a certain vintage need to have an honest look at themselves and ask why their membership has dwindled.

By the way, it took me 9 years to get CID too and I thank my lucky stars everyday for it! My thoughts are with all the young people going from school to school each year, perennially scratching around for a few hours. Those who've had to move abroad (as I did myself) and those who've had to find new careers (did that too). Listening now to some people 'pretend' they care about them is beyond galling- you'll more likely hear them complain about having to teach CSPE or heaven forbid have to cover 20 mins of a break-time or a couple of classes a week for absent colleagues. Teachers in Ireland really don't know how handy they have it!

Boy, for a teacher you sure hate teachers.

I've never come across a colleague like you before.

keoclassic

All communication that i have received from the school says that we are not open tomorrow, so as I am not unionised, do i still go to my class's for assigned periods? I presume i am not getting paid?

ethical

Why are some schools " opening for exam classes",I'm talking ASTI ,voluntary Catholic Secondary schools here whereas others are not? Are they breaking the Directive?
What of ETB schools with predominantly ASTI members,a bit of a nonsense coming in to an open school (where there are no students,if you ask me),which means Teachers are not getting paid.(unless of course the Principal wants to have a lovely session of CP hours....but wouldnt that be breaking the directive!)
Its an awful mess and dosent look like it will be sorted until Wednesday at the earliest. We must not forget that teachers are parents too.

km79

keoclassic wrote: »

All communication that i have received from the school says that we are not open tomorrow, so as I am not unionised, do i still go to my class's for assigned periods? I presume i am not getting paid?

One of the main benefits of being in a union is just such a situation ........you will have to contact your principal if the communication is unclear I guess . But if the school is closed as you say then how will you go to your classes ????

keoclassic

km79 wrote: »

One of the main benefits of being in a union is just such a situation ........you will have to contact your principal if the communication is unclear I guess . But if the school is closed as you say then how will you go to your classes ????

I assume that the building is open for other staff??? I also mean by going to my classes, as being physically present in the room that i am timetabled for.

km79

keoclassic wrote: »

I assume that the building is open for other staff??? I also mean by going to my classes, as being physically present in the room that i am timetabled for.

If the letter was sent you you a teacher and states the the school is closed then that's what it means . Closed to teachers as well as students.
You will not be allowed in . Many others in the same situation .
Can you check with someone else in your school

stanley1980

Eintrachtrob wrote: »

Boy, for a teacher you sure hate teachers.

I've never come across a colleague like you before.

I don't hate teachers and I love my job with a genuine passion. However, I hate the sense of self-entitlement that some of my colleagues seem to have. I hate that some (by no means all) seem to see teaching as a convenient occupation that fits around their personal and sporting lives. I hate the widespread abuse of personal days by people who then whinge that they're not being treated fairly by 'da government'. I hate the lack of dynamism by some teachers and the instinctive fear of anything new. I hate the widespread nepotism still so rampant in our staff rooms.
Mainly I hate the double-standards of some colleagues who with no sense of irony will rush out the door at 4pm each day, contribute little or nothing to the extracurricular life of the school yet still be the first to whinge that they are somehow more deserving than other professions. I hate the fact there is no accountability for bad teachers- few or no checks to make sure people are doing their jobs to a basic standard. The appalling standard of teacher-training in Ireland.

amacca

And yet you manifest that hatred for only "some" of your "colleagues" behaviours as you perceive them by posting misinformation about older members in general selling younger ones down the road despite proof to the contrary being offered?

hmmmmm

maybe your specific issues with certain colleagues may not be something that can be applied in general to this situation

(also maybe theres more than meets the eye or another side to your specific issues with certain colleagues as well)

Inspector Coptoor

stanley1980 wrote: »

I don't hate teachers and I love my job with a genuine passion. However, I hate the sense of self-entitlement that some of my colleagues seem to have. I hate that some (by no means all) seem to see teaching as a convenient occupation that fits around their personal and sporting lives. I hate the widespread abuse of personal days by people who then whinge that they're not being treated fairly by 'da government'. I hate the lack of dynamism by some teachers and the instinctive fear of anything new. I hate the widespread nepotism still so rampant in our staff rooms.
Mainly I hate the double-standards of some colleagues who with no sense of irony will rush out the door at 4pm each day, contribute little or nothing to the extracurricular life of the school yet still be the first to whinge that they are somehow more deserving than other professions. I hate the fact there is no accountability for bad teachers- few or no checks to make sure people are doing their jobs to a basic standard. The appalling standard of teacher-training in Ireland.

I'd agree with a lot of that.
I trained in the U.K. As I heard the Dip wasn't great.

The problem with a profession with around 35,000 people in it is that you are always gonna have a few bad eggs, especially with the huge perk of the holidays.
It does attract some people for that reason alone.

Are some people selfish? Yes
Do some teachers let the side down? Yes
Are teachers easy targets because everyone went to school and everyone had a bad teacher? Yes.


You can't let the points you've raised there get in the way of the substantive argument we are involved in now regarding pay equalization and S&S.

maude6868

http://peterlydon.ie/you-wont-believe-what-the-minister-for-education-said-about-the-asti-strike/

deiseindublin

Really great article here, logical and to the point with no drama!

(Sorry maude, just saw you had it posted after pasting the link! Knew it wasn't here 5 mins ago).

maude6868

deiseindublin wrote: »

Really great article here, logical and to the point with no drama!

(Sorry maude, just saw you had it posted after pasting the link! Knew it wasn't here 5 mins ago).

No worries, great article.

stanley1980

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

I'd agree with a lot of that.
I trained in the U.K. As I heard the Dip wasn't great.

The problem with a profession with around 35,000 people in it is that you are always gonna have a few bad eggs, especially with the huge perk of the holidays.
It does attract some people for that reason alone.

Are some people selfish? Yes
Do some teachers let the side down? Yes
Are teachers easy targets because everyone went to school and everyone had a bad teacher? Yes.


You can't let the points you've raised there get in the way of the substantive argument we are involved in now regarding pay equalization and S&S.

I trained in the UK too. Teacher training here is beyond bad. How can a student-teacher be left unsupervised in a classroom when they're starting out? It's a national disgrace. No structured help, no feedback from more experienced colleagues who are instead sipping a cup of tea as the 'dip' takes their class. Hard to think of another profession where an apprentice would be treated like this...and in 'teaching/education'....oh the irony! Why do I never hear unions mention issues like this?!

evolving_doors

ethical wrote: »

Why are some schools " opening for exam classes",I'm talking ASTI ,voluntary Catholic Secondary schools here whereas others are not? Are they breaking the Directive?
What of ETB schools with predominantly ASTI members,a bit of a nonsense coming in to an open school (where there are no students,if you ask me),which means Teachers are not getting paid.(unless of course the Principal wants to have a lovely session of CP hours....but wouldnt that be breaking the directive!)
Its an awful mess and dosent look like it will be sorted until Wednesday at the earliest. We must not forget that teachers are parents too.

If you are ASTI you just show up and teach as normal, just don't do S&S... No matter what the composition of yer school.

Eintrachtrob

stanley1980 wrote: »

I don't hate teachers and I love my job with a genuine passion. However, I hate the sense of self-entitlement that some of my colleagues seem to have. I hate that some (by no means all) seem to see teaching as a convenient occupation that fits around their personal and sporting lives. I hate the widespread abuse of personal days by people who then whinge that they're not being treated fairly by 'da government'. I hate the lack of dynamism by some teachers and the instinctive fear of anything new. I hate the widespread nepotism still so rampant in our staff rooms.
Mainly I hate the double-standards of some colleagues who with no sense of irony will rush out the door at 4pm each day, contribute little or nothing to the extracurricular life of the school yet still be the first to whinge that they are somehow more deserving than other professions. I hate the fact there is no accountability for bad teachers- few or no checks to make sure people are doing their jobs to a basic standard. The appalling standard of teacher-training in Ireland.

Why don't you go off and whinge somewhere else then, as this is about the ASTI strike?

feardeas

acequion wrote: »

Ah come on feardeas!! You'd swear the asti leaders forced this on an unwilling membership the way you're going on.Have you forgotten that 80 percent voted for this!! I know that you're in the other 20 percent and of course you should leave if your beliefs are closer to TUI and if they can represent you
But dont forget you're in the minority. Yes the minority willl gradually grow and could even become the majority.But end of the day a big majority wanted to go down this road because they were sick of being compliant and getting screwed.This is scary territory but Im glad we're here at last. Oh and by the way what did you mean by strategy? Apart from the fact that we could have played the S&S one better what other strategy is there? Tell me what you think could have been done better here as Im curious.

I won't forget I'm in the minority, and thank you for reminding me. I was using the reference in answer to the poster who was talking about the necessity for some kind of blood sacrifice ala 1916.

The union pushed for a mandate, I got texts last May and again in Sept/Oct. I know of colleagues, quite a number, who were asking on the day of the ballot what way we were told to vote, I jest you not.

As for strategy, right. How about the following a strategy that would have the Ward report for lpt. A strategy that would have got the equivalent of the degree allowance re-instated. A strategy that would have seen the return of 3.5k to teachers inclusive of the S and S payment, restoration and reduction of Pension Levy.

Now the other unions secured all of that through acceptance of LRA and further talks in September. How about getting that and then pushing through the pay commission and the successor to LRA for the re instatement of the Dip allowance and the 10% cut from 2011.

I am in the minority, but I have the right to a view and no amount of hectoring should stop people from talking. Also, far from leaving I intend to be a frequent attendee at branch meetings so that I can raise issues and questions rather than them being an echo chamber like the few that I attended in the past.

stanley1980

Eintrachtrob wrote: »

Why don't you go off and whinge somewhere else then, as this is about the ASTI strike?

The unions tacitly support these people, that was my point. I'll try to be less subtle next time and spell it out in capital letters just for you.

amacca

stanley1980 wrote: »

Why do I never hear unions mention issues like this?!

I would think the union has enough of a job on its plate to try and fight for its members (you know the one who pay the subs - its main reason for existing) you can see how hard it is just to get the Govt to do what it has agreed to do despite the teachers having already fulfilled their side of the bargain....

Why do you never hear the govt mention it would be a better question I would have thought

and if were going to go down that road

or why do you never hear them or the teaching council or any other group supposedly concerned with education mention limiting the number of teacher training places available at third level to deal with the oversupply of teaching graduates

or why they don't enquire as to how increasing the dip to two years and charging a full years tuition for each one while still seemingly retaining the exact same stuff that was formerly part of a one year course seems to have mainly benefitted the training gravy train the 3rd level colleges have set up for themselves imo

etc etc

Could the answer possibly be...that its a good old fashioned rooten tooten race to the bottom!

mrskinner

Is it true that fee paying schools will remain open as they already employ non Asti people to supervise?

stanley1980

amacca wrote: »

I would think the union has enough of a job on its plate to try and fight for its members (you know the one who pay the subs - its main reason for existing)

Why do you never hear the govt mention it would be a better question I would have thought

and if were going to go down that road

or why do you never hear them or the teaching council or any other group supposedly concerned with education mention limiting the number of teacher training places available at third level to deal with the oversupply of teaching graduates

or why they don't enquire as to how increasing the dip to two years and charging a full years tuition for each one while still seemingly retaining the exact same stuff that was formerly part of a one year course seems to have mainly benefitted the training gravy train the 3rd level colleges have set up for themselves imo

etc etc

I agree with your points. However surely placing an untrained and unqualified student into a classroom totally unsupervised is of interest to unions- groups who profess to uphold suitable and safe working conditions ?

deiseindublin

feardeas wrote: »

The union pushed for a mandate, I got texts last May and again in Sept/Oct. I know of colleagues, quite a number, who were asking on the day of the ballot what way we were told to vote, I jest you not.

That's the same in any ballot. I have the same gripe with TUI asking us to accept deal and colleagues asking on the day what way to vote.

evolving_doors

stanley1980 wrote: »

I trained in the UK too. Teacher training here is beyond bad. How can a student-teacher be left unsupervised in a classroom when they're starting out? It's a national disgrace. No structured help, no feedback from more experienced colleagues who are instead sipping a cup of tea as the 'dip' takes their class. Hard to think of another profession where an apprentice would be treated like this...and in 'teaching/education'....oh the irony! Why do I never hear unions mention issues like this?!

Have you raised it at a union meeting?
Maybe it's a school issue more so than a union matter. Our school has changed so that ALL student teachers are shadowed for the first few days.
Maybe put it forward for consideration at your next staff meeting, why wait for other to do it.

It's a bit besides the point anyway.

Anyhow I must go and do up my household budget, seeing as how I've just blown the Christmas fund by going on strike for LPT's of all unions and none. Many of whom btw will be getting paid while I'm on strike. Many of whom openly laughed at us for having to go on the picket while they stayed in the scratcher.
Many of whom never joined a union but expected representation.
Many of whom have the union reps ear bent about their contract, but never paid or never will pay a sub.
The most active and vociferous defenders of the profession are/were the older members (this is the reason why the govt. retired them off early too!).
It was ALWAYS the way that you had to do the #### low hours before you got a whiff of permanency. CID for 2Years or 4 it matters not, if they want to keep you they will and if they don't then they won't.
The Hours culture and CID's are the curse of the profession.

amacca

stanley1980 wrote: »

I agree with your points. However surely placing an untrained and unqualified student into a classroom totally unsupervised is of interest to unions- groups who profess to uphold suitable and safe working conditions ?

I see it totally differently...even if team teaching is commonplace You will be spending most your working life working alone in a classroom...the best training you can get is self reliance imo ...Id rather train in the conditions I will be working in

also its not like you are let off for a year without any prior training etc or any checks and balances...there are regular supervisions, tutor groups, microteaching+ its not like you are working in isolation in your co-operating school or your principal/vice-principal/co-operating teacher doesn't know how things are progressing fairly quickly or check in from time to time or give help etc or a word of advice if needed......+there is a sizeable audience in front of you complete with parents..to think their won't be all kinds of feedback would be naive imo

most trainees I co-operated with in the past with didn't want you there once they got up and running...I really don't think its that big of an issue at all

Chilli Con Kearney

Hi Stanley. Funnily enough, I agree with several of your points. There is no doubt that the system is archaic but many industries/companies /sectors are too. But I think that's a discussion for another day.

I see that you are a non union member. Perfectly entitled to be. Just wondering, say that the ASTI secure a deal with increments returning for pre 2011 teachers like you and I. Will you forego it as somebody who let others battle on? Also, did you forego the pay last Thursday too? Just curious.

MrJones1973

feardeas wrote: »

I won't forget I'm in the minority, and thank you for reminding me. I was using the reference in answer to the poster who was talking about the necessity for some kind of blood sacrifice ala 1916.

The union pushed for a mandate, I got texts last May and again in Sept/Oct. I know of colleagues, quite a number, who were asking on the day of the ballot what way we were told to vote, I jest you not.

As for strategy, right. How about the following a strategy that would have the Ward report for lpt. A strategy that would have got the equivalent of the degree allowance re-instated. A strategy that would have seen the return of 3.5k to teachers inclusive of the S and S payment, restoration and reduction of Pension Levy.

Now the other unions secured all of that through acceptance of LRA and further talks in September. How about getting that and then pushing through the pay commission and the successor to LRA for the re instatement of the Dip allowance and the 10% cut from 2011.

I am in the minority, but I have the right to a view and no amount of hectoring should stop people from talking. Also, far from leaving I intend to be a frequent attendee at branch meetings so that I can raise issues and questions rather than them being an echo chamber like the few that I attended in the past.

You have a valid point of view. No doubt about that but I think it was really to get TUI to accept LR that any progress was made on new entrants. In other words it was the prospect of a TUI rejection that moved that one forward. A second rejection. Remember TUI rejected it first and was there anything in orginal deal for new enrtants?
Yes-progress was made through LR but why cant we press for more progress? The best paid group of PS -Guards got a better deal?
There is nothing In LR to deal with the disintegration of Middle Mgt or the JC mess. Is your school ready for the JC ? MGt ready?
Bottom line is LR is about as credible as a horny male in coppers at 2am. Capable of saying anything to get you in! The guards have proved that. All Bruton has to do is say its something else now.

You made me laugh when you threw in the ward report? That was never part of LR just withdrawn by a vindictive Government . Ditto S and S-not part of LR but withdrawn anyway. Pettiness all round. I shudder to think of FG without any brakes.

stanley1980

ok, good topic for discussion, feel free to start another thread. Back on topic. Ta.
Mod

evolving_doors

mrskinner wrote: »

Is it true that fee paying schools will remain open as they already employ non Asti people to supervise?

Some might. Depending on the numbers. But then again, they might look at other fee paying schools and see what they are doing. If fee paying parents found out that their son's school was open and the daughter's was closed there'd be 'words'.

Eintrachtrob

Any deal sorted out would probably involve us coming in for the Feb midterm or Easter in exchange for payment for tomorrow or Wednesday (if it goes that far). .