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ASTI OctNov Action *Post 1 for usual plea for restraint Especially New Posters *
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Pigs really are flying tonight. The above emboldened is one of the most nonsensical things I have ever heard. Senior managers taking "massive" pay cuts! As if!!
Such a wild statement absolutely has to be backed up with concrete evidence so could we have it please!
Yes, the managers in an office I used to work for took 66% pay cut. Junior staff had to take 20%. Wasn't uncommon during the recession. In many companies during the recession 2008-2011 you had directors not taking wages so they would have cash to pay wages to their staff.0 -
griffzinho wrote: »If there is any example of how one is wasting their time on this forum it is this post.
http://www.asti.ie/news/latest-news/news-article/article/asti-responds-to-government-announcement-on-new-teachers-pay/
"The ASTI today said it is campaigning for the full restoration of new teachers’ pay"
It is restoration. Give it up.
Anyway I'm out again.
Will respond if anyone can tell me where the money is going to come from for all these 'pay claims' That information I would be very interested in. Quantify it though please.
As for everyone celebrating going on strike I hope you fully realise the consequences of holding our Government to ransom. I am in the 20% minority that voted for no industrial action so maybe I am wrong. I certainly don't feel that way, but maybe I am. Time will tell.
holding our Government to ransom....
Where'd TD's find the money for their pay rises?
The dept. had agreed to pay teachers for S&S 2years ago in Haddington road... this money had been put aside. So it is there. If they want to pay subs to do S&S where are they going to get the money?0 -
Both the ignorant,as in the teacher haters and the arrogant whose contemptuous tones are quite breathtaking are out in force tonight and the usual posters are being way too polite,in my opinion.
A foretaste of what's to come. As someone already said so many prefer to attack their fellow workers than a Government who prefer to pay out to bondholders and Apple. Irish ignorance and arrogance at its best.0 -
oppenheimer1 wrote: »Yes, the managers in an office I used to work for took 66% pay cut. Junior staff had to take 20%. Wasn't uncommon during the recession. In many companies during the recession 2008-2011 you had directors not taking wages so they would have cash to pay wages to their staff.
Companies, directors,staff, "an office I worked in" anyone could make such wild claims. Can we have specific,proven facts please. Because I simply do not believe this.0 -
holding our Government to ransom....
Where'd TD's find the money for their pay rises?
Very poor. Particularly from a mod.
Quantify the figures please.
* How much will/would the TD's pay rise cost the state?
* How much would a potential unraveling of the LRA cost the state?
The two figures are strikingly incomparable.
TD's giving themselves a raise is an entirely different issue. It is totally wrong.
Stop dragging me back in again with completely obscure/rubbish posts.
G'night.0 -
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Don't waste your time,amacca. The arrogance there is breathtaking.
The stupidity here is breathtaking.
Where would be without our FDI led recovery (aka Apple and the likes)
Where would we be without access to the bond market?
God. You haven't a clue really.
Acequion I'll do you a favour on put you on ignore because I really can't argue with someone who does not understand the basic stuff.0 -
griffzinho wrote: »I read your post. Here is the information you require quantified by the TUI.
http://www.tui.ie/_fileupload/Pay%20Parity%20Breakthrough%20QA%20FINAL%2026Sept.pdf
Scroll to page 5 please.
I don't think increments (which are currently 'paused' for ASTI) are included but I welcome correction.
I have read that document and it proves my point. It doesn't include allowances as these are not being restored. A gap still exists so it is not restoration.
As i said, it is far far less than the media suggestions of €2000 per teacher. And even if it was €2000 any "restoration" that leaves me approx. €6000 worse off than identically qualified and experienced colleagues is not restoration it's an insult.0 -
Its a bit of whataboutery and I do think politicians should lead by example when it comes to pay restraint however:holding our Government to ransom....
Where'd TD's find the money for their pay rises?
There are 158 TD's, and there are no increments. There are 88,184 teachers, each of whom get an increase in annual wages of approx €1300 per year for the first 10 years of their career.0 -
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griffzinho wrote: »If there is any example of how one is wasting their time on this forum it is this post.
http://www.asti.ie/news/latest-news/news-article/article/asti-responds-to-government-announcement-on-new-teachers-pay/
"The ASTI today said it is campaigning for the full restoration of new teachers’ pay"
It is restoration. Give it up.
Anyway I'm out again.
Will respond if anyone can tell me where the money is going to come from for all these 'pay claims' That information I would be very interested in. Quantify it though please.
As for everyone celebrating going on strike I hope you fully realise the consequences of holding our Government to ransom. I am in the 20% minority that voted for no industrial action so maybe I am wrong. I certainly don't feel that way, but maybe I am. Time will tell.
I made it quite clear in my post that in my opinion what is being sought is not restoration as, again in my opinion, restoration means reversing pay cuts - not discontinuing a new pay scale. As a member of a democractic union I have the liberty of disagreeing with the terminology used by union spokespeople. I said all this already but it appears you didn't take it in, so I too must be wasting my time.
Nobody is celebrating going on strike and the effects it may have on students, especially Leaving Certs. Nor is anybody looking forward to loosing seven days' pay. But we can take consolation and some cause for celebration from the fact that we have taken a stand against the continuous degredation of our profession and against a duplicitous employer.0 -
You'd have to wonder though what will the resolution be. Will we end up in that goddamned Landsdowne Road? I hear Bruton on six one harping on about flexibility on the CP hours.Having done this first term without those awful hours there is just no way I ever want to see them back! I'm an older teacher, still full of enthusiasm and motivation but find the job is full enough as is.And then there's the new JC. Personally I'm ok with a new course but not with CBAs and SLARs. So there are many battles and the DES have already made it clear to the ASTI negotiators that they want everything resolved this time in one settlement.
So what will that settlement look like?
I would have always considered myself a very moderate person but this whole issue has really got to me and I am at the stage where I will do whatever necessary to stop this continued trampling on the conditions of teachers and the demonisation of the teaching profession.
I for one will not sign up to any agreement that does not bring a single pay scale. I was at the protest meeting yesterday evening and the speaker that had the most impact on me was the female LPT who spoke about how after her Dip she completed her masters and then worked in a University in the States for a year. These are things which you imagine she would be commended on but as she said her decision to pursue this route delayed her entry into full time teaching and unfortunately for her she ended up on the wrong side of the pre/ post 2011 divide and as a result over her career will suffer a loss of over 200,000 euro over her career when compared with those who entered teaching straight from her Dip year. I looked at a few papers today and none of them made any reference to these comments, it obviously wouldn't sit comfortably with our Government supporting media to highlight such issues.
Equally I will not vote for any agreement that includes the new Junior Cert as it is currently constituted.
I will not vote for any agreement that includes the Croke Park hours as they currently are. I would accept having to do all parent teacher meetings outside school and four 2 hour staff meeting a year, total of 26 hours. All other Croke Park hours to me are box ticking exercises. Subject department meetings which come with a top down agenda imposed by management with micro detail on what we should discuss, serve no purpose in my eyes. I have subject department meetings with my colleagues every day of the week at some stage and these will continue and the department will continue to function, although maybe without the highly sought after bureaucratic paper trail.
One other issue to highlight, I find it abhorrent that the Government and minister did not honour the HR agreement in making the promised payments for S and S. These were delivered by teachers as per that agreement and should be paid. If agreements are not honoured what is their purpose. On a side issue, I opted out of S and S at the very start and never did it. When I try to explain to non teaching friends that under the HR agreement I had to take a pay cut so I could continue not doing something I had never done you should see the bewilderment.
Sorry for length of post and on reading back I do see I might come across as militant I am not but I have had enough.0 -
oppenheimer1 wrote: »I really hope you're not a teacher, or indeed let within an asses roar of a classroom.
I think aceqion is quite right to be fair....regular posters here have been polite and relatively mild perhaps too much so.....
whereas other posters have adopted a condescending, arrogant and attacking tone in many recent posts the above included0 -
Things seem to have escalated. On here at any rate. To start I'm one of the minority as I've said before but for some life might be too short to read through posts. Just a few crumbs:
That nonsense of equating salary to the months we work. We get paid an annual salary. The vast majority of us work hard and we get paid that salary, assuming we are in such positions, over the twelve months. The holidays are undeniably good but the CAO was there for everyone and begrudgery is far from an appealing trait.
The banks, developers etc were all part of this great efficient private sector that we have. They are the ones who landed us in the mess we were in. Also when it comes to efficiency try ringing the likes of Vodafone/BOI after you have pressed God knows how many numbers. You can not teach by pressing numbers.
That kind of nonsense will be plentiful. I thought teaching was easy until I took my first class in my Dip year back in 03. I got some land, now years later I can forget what it was like but let me tell anyone that the difference between teaching and being a pupil is night and day.
I go to a GP from time to time, I have the experience of being a patient. I bring my car to a mechanic, I go to get my hair cut. Doing all those things gives me experience of being dealt with in that field it does not make me qualified or able to be a doctor/mechanic/barber. Having being a pupil or indeed being the parent of pupils does not qualify one to teach.
I did not sell anyone out. We accepted Croke Park because it protected us from future cuts. Most assumed that the protection would extend to new entrants. Anyway that line is now redundant because this strike is for those.
Now as far as the situation is concerned. I voted against both because I do not believe the resources exist to establish full parity or to restore wages in one go. If they did the government would have managed more than a fiver in the budget. That was my reasoning.
I fail to see where a solution might be found unless some timeframe can be agreed for restoration but that surely would have to be dependent on economic events and nobody knows what Brexit will bring.
I am also fearful of the money that will be lost in salary. It looks like at least two days from most cheques in November and indeed December. I don't mean to be churlish but that is the reality of my context. I won't be on the breadline but a week's wages is a week's wages. The nice people I owe my mortgage and car loan to won't knock a week off the bill.
While I'm not sure how it can be resolved I'm sure it will be. The decision to go out for 7 days makes it a certainty. Every IR dispute is solved eventually. The more strident members of the union know that also. The leadership do. This is what they have been building towards for years. They have the mandate, they have taken the decision. It will be implemented.
This is a high stakes game, many of us, myself included, have not been involved in a prolonged dispute before. From looking at comments on the VFT forum on facebook it seems as if there is euphoria among quite a few teachers that this has happened. It's a bit like the garden parties that were being held as WW1 broke out.
The stakes, as I said are high. The leadership have a mandate, helped by their recommendation. They were well within their rights. I think they now have an awesome responsibility in working towards a resolution that will address the legitimate concerns while at the same time seeking to ensure that morale and collegiality will not be too badly damaged. I hope they are able for the task, I don't agree with it but for all our sake and our students I hope they are.0 -
Things seem to have escalated. On here at any rate. To start I'm one of the minority as I've said before but for some life might be too short to read through posts. Just a few crumbs:
That nonsense of equating salary to the months we work. We get paid an annual salary. The vast majority of us work hard and we get paid that salary, assuming we are in such positions, over the twelve months. The holidays are undeniably good but the CAO was there for everyone and begrudgery is far from an appealing trait.
The banks, developers etc were all part of this great efficient private sector that we have. They are the ones who landed us in the mess we were in. Also when it comes to efficiency try ringing the likes of Vodafone/BOI after you have pressed God knows how many numbers. You can not teach by pressing numbers.
That kind of nonsense will be plentiful. I thought teaching was easy until I took my first class in my Dip year back in 03. I got some land, now years later I can forget what it was like but let me tell anyone that the difference between teaching and being a pupil is night and day.
I go to a GP from time to time, I have the experience of being a patient. I bring my car to a mechanic, I go to get my hair cut. Doing all those things gives me experience of being dealt with in that field it does not make me qualified or able to be a doctor/mechanic/barber. Having being a pupil or indeed being the parent of pupils does not qualify one to teach.
I did not sell anyone out. We accepted Croke Park because it protected us from future cuts. Most assumed that the protection would extend to new entrants. Anyway that line is now redundant because this strike is for those.
Now as far as the situation is concerned. I voted against both because I do not believe the resources exist to establish full parity or to restore wages in one go. If they did the government would have managed more than a fiver in the budget. That was my reasoning.
I fail to see where a solution might be found unless some timeframe can be agreed for restoration but that surely would have to be dependent on economic events and nobody knows what Brexit will bring.
I am also fearful of the money that will be lost in salary. It looks like at least two days from most cheques in November and indeed December. I don't mean to be churlish but that is the reality of my context. I won't be on the breadline but a week's wages is a week's wages. The nice people I owe my mortgage and car loan to won't knock a week off the bill.
While I'm not sure how it can be resolved I'm sure it will be. The decision to go out for 7 days makes it a certainty. Every IR dispute is solved eventually. The more strident members of the union know that also. The leadership do. This is what they have been building towards for years. They have the mandate, they have taken the decision. It will be implemented.
This is a high stakes game, many of us, myself included, have not been involved in a prolonged dispute before. From looking at comments on the VFT forum on facebook it seems as if there is euphoria among quite a few teachers that this has happened. It's a bit like the garden parties that were being held as WW1 broke out.
The stakes, as I said are high. The leadership have a mandate, helped by their recommendation. They were well within their rights. I think they now have an awesome responsibility in working towards a resolution that will address the legitimate concerns while at the same time seeking to ensure that morale and collegiality will not be too badly damaged. I hope they are able for the task, I don't agree with it but for all our sake and our students I hope they are.
While I'm in the majority and you're in the minority I really appreciate your obvious sincerity and respect for opposing views and I thank you for that.
You're right. The strike days will hit our pockets but they will result in a resolution, though what that will be is as yet anyone's guess.I think most of us are realistic and are fully aware that we won't get everything we want. And some very uncomfortable sacrifices will be required. There will also be more balloting which may or may not seal the deal. It really is a can of worms which has been opened by this huge mandate but that's what we voted for.
The one thing I wouldn't agree with though is what you say about euphoria and comparing it to the garden parties at the outbreak of war. I think people are very proud that at last there is a strong willingness there to stand up to a clearly anti public sector Government agenda which is downright offensive and unjust in non recessionary times.But believe me nobody is "euphoric" about strikes and money loss and everybody is worried about the outcome.0 -
Things seem to have escalated. On here at any rate. To start I'm one of the minority as I've said before but for some life might be too short to read through posts. Just a few crumbs:
That nonsense of equating salary to the months we work. We get paid an annual salary. The vast majority of us work hard and we get paid that salary, assuming we are in such positions, over the twelve months. The holidays are undeniably good but the CAO was there for everyone and begrudgery is far from an appealing trait.
The banks, developers etc were all part of this great efficient private sector that we have. They are the ones who landed us in the mess we were in. Also when it comes to efficiency try ringing the likes of Vodafone/BOI after you have pressed God knows how many numbers. You can not teach by pressing numbers.
That kind of nonsense will be plentiful. I thought teaching was easy until I took my first class in my Dip year back in 03. I got some land, now years later I can forget what it was like but let me tell anyone that the difference between teaching and being a pupil is night and day.
I go to a GP from time to time, I have the experience of being a patient. I bring my car to a mechanic, I go to get my hair cut. Doing all those things gives me experience of being dealt with in that field it does not make me qualified or able to be a doctor/mechanic/barber. Having being a pupil or indeed being the parent of pupils does not qualify one to teach.
I did not sell anyone out. We accepted Croke Park because it protected us from future cuts. Most assumed that the protection would extend to new entrants. Anyway that line is now redundant because this strike is for those.
Now as far as the situation is concerned. I voted against both because I do not believe the resources exist to establish full parity or to restore wages in one go. If they did the government would have managed more than a fiver in the budget. That was my reasoning.
I fail to see where a solution might be found unless some timeframe can be agreed for restoration but that surely would have to be dependent on economic events and nobody knows what Brexit will bring.
I am also fearful of the money that will be lost in salary. It looks like at least two days from most cheques in November and indeed December. I don't mean to be churlish but that is the reality of my context. I won't be on the breadline but a week's wages is a week's wages. The nice people I owe my mortgage and car loan to won't knock a week off the bill.
While I'm not sure how it can be resolved I'm sure it will be. The decision to go out for 7 days makes it a certainty. Every IR dispute is solved eventually. The more strident members of the union know that also. The leadership do. This is what they have been building towards for years. They have the mandate, they have taken the decision. It will be implemented.
This is a high stakes game, many of us, myself included, have not been involved in a prolonged dispute before. From looking at comments on the VFT forum on facebook it seems as if there is euphoria among quite a few teachers that this has happened. It's a bit like the garden parties that were being held as WW1 broke out.
The stakes, as I said are high. The leadership have a mandate, helped by their recommendation. They were well within their rights. I think they now have an awesome responsibility in working towards a resolution that will address the legitimate concerns while at the same time seeking to ensure that morale and collegiality will not be too badly damaged. I hope they are able for the task, I don't agree with it but for all our sake and our students I hope they are.
I just want to correct you on a few points. It was not the bank bailout that led to the crash and all the cuts that had to be faced. What actually happened was the government decided to oncrease welfare and public sector wages on the back of tax receipts from the construction industry. When the construction bubble collapsed, The government found a 20bn hole in its annual finances and found no one was willing to lend to it at an affordable rate. This is kind of off topic, but its important that we all understand how we got here - previous lack of wage restraint on a very narrow tax base.
Peoples attitude to teachers is coloured by the system we all went through. Speak to an older person about school and they'll tell you about the madman that used to beat the ****e out of children. Speak to a younger person and they'll be able to tell you of a few useless teachers they encountered -and how these people managed to get away doing so little for so long. I don't think its all begrudgery, but a frustration with a system that very much tolerates poor performance and has always done so. If the unions offered easy removal of poorly performing teachers in exchange for parity I would bet it would get a sympathetic hearing from the public.
I have to disagree on your point on CP as well. The union voted for it and the measures undertaken in it weren't really challenged in HR. Protecting yourself at the expense of someone else is the definition of selling out - existing teachers sold out their future colleagues. The opportunity for a single scale was there at the time but that would have meant pay cuts.
I do agree that the states finances aren't robust enough to make the award and the LRA is probably the only show in town. The government will have to take on the union here as the cost of LRA falling apart would throw the public finances into chaos. I've a feeling this is one thats going to run for a while.0 -
griffzinho wrote: »Very poor. Particularly from a mod.
Quantify the figures please.
* How much will/would the TD's pay rise cost the state?
* How much would a potential unraveling of the LRA cost the state?
The two figures are strikingly incomparable.
TD's giving themselves a raise is an entirely different issue. It is totally wrong.
Stop dragging me back in again with completely obscure/rubbish posts.
G'night.
Seriously! enough of the pigeon droppings in and out of threads.
I'll take you up on your request, so take a break for a few days to cool down.
Mod
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oppenheimer1 wrote: »Its a bit of whataboutery and I do think politicians should lead by example when it comes to pay restraint however:
There are 158 TD's, and there are no increments. There are 88,184 teachers, each of whom get an increase in annual wages of approx €1300 per year for the first 10 years of their career.
First ten years of my career I wasn't on a full wage (as are the vast majority of teachers). So on paper it may be 1,300 but in reality it is a portion of that.
Nothing wrong with whataboutery BTW, especially when other folk are claiming that the country just doesn't have the money.
Under the terms of haddington road the TD's are getting their pay restored.
Under the terms of Haddington road ASTI teachers get what?0 -
oppenheimer1 wrote: »I just want to correct you on a few points. It was not the bank bailout that led to the crash and all the cuts that had to be faced. What actually happened was the government decided to oncrease welfare and public sector wages on the back of tax receipts from the construction industry. When the construction bubble collapsed, The government found a 20bn hole in its annual finances and found no one was willing to lend to it at an affordable rate. This is kind of off topic, but its important that we all understand how we got here - previous lack of wage restraint on a very narrow tax base.
Peoples attitude to teachers is coloured by the system we all went through. Speak to an older person about school and they'll tell you about the madman that used to beat the ****e out of children. Speak to a younger person and they'll be able to tell you of a few useless teachers they encountered -and how these people managed to get away doing so little for so long. I don't think its all begrudgery, but a frustration with a system that very much tolerates poor performance and has always done so. If the unions offered easy removal of poorly performing teachers in exchange for parity I would bet it would get a sympathetic hearing from the public.
I have to disagree on your point on CP as well. The union voted for it and the measures undertaken in it weren't really challenged in HR. Protecting yourself at the expense of someone else is the definition of selling out - existing teachers sold out their future colleagues. The opportunity for a single scale was there at the time but that would have meant pay cuts.
I do agree that the states finances aren't robust enough to make the award and the LRA is probably the only show in town. The government will have to take on the union here as the cost of LRA falling apart would throw the public finances into chaos. I've a feeling this is one thats going to run for a while.
In relation to the causes of the crash. Yes, public spending rose on a narrow tax base. There were also tax cuts which everyone benefitted from, no body public or private sought to give them back. The pay increases were generally small enough other than benchmarking. That was well before my time. However benchmarking was a response to the cost of living and in particular the cost of housing.
Also the proportion of graduates in the public service is far higher than in some sectors in the private sector. In teaching everyone is a graduate. It is a fact that graduates generally earn more. Hence there will naturally be a differential in pay when everyone is lumped into either public or private. If you compared teaching with a graduate profession in the private sector on the base of being a third level graduate like accountancy or law or finance then the differential could be turned upside down. Why, though, would commentators let facts disrupt their narrative of the big bad public sector being the root of nearly all evil.
In education that spending increase involved employing new teachers and establishing special needs education in the country. It also involved the employment of SNAs to ensure that children and young people with special needs would have access to education.
There was a 20 billion hole, construction went wallop. However no teacher or nurse or guard or junior to mid civil servant went into Anglo Irish, AIB, BOI or any of them to encourage the wreckless lending. All that cost in excess of 60 billion. Let's not forget that either.
People have experience of education. It's a long time since anyone was battered. Different time now. There are poor teachers, no one can deny that. There should be ways of dealing with it. However performance in teaching can be hard to measure. I or anyone else can teach Jhonny to the best of our ability but if he doesn't do a tap at home he will not perform well in the system we have, the same system that most have.
As for CP. I simply stated my reading of it at the time. Haddington Road did cement the differentials. However it showed realism to an extent, there was a feeling that those issues could be addressed in the following agreement. You are free to correct me but that was my feeling at the time.0 -
When can we expect directives from the union detailing s&s ?0
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griffzinho wrote: »Oppenheimer. You are wasting your time here as most posters won't acknowledge the fact that the taxpayer (us) cannot afford to pay the entire public sector the full restoration amounts that are being sought.
The LRA will come crashing down if the Govt gives in to ASTI. Same with the Gardai. Everyone is conscious that pay discrimination is wrong (even Bruton/Govt,etc) but restoration has to be at an affordable rate. We are only just coming out of a major recession and barring FDI inspired growth, the real economy is still fragile.
The two x €1,000 increases for NQT's agreed by TUI and INTO are reasonable and affordable and coupled with increments (approx €1,500), and LRA benefits such as the S&S substitution payments (approx €1,500) and the €1,000 addition for all LRA teachers amounts to nearly €6,000 throughout the duration of LRA. That is a nearly 20% rise in pay during the LRA for a post 2011/2012 teacher during the lifetime of this agreement.
That (for me) is a reasonable start.
If anyone cares to quantify in hard figures where the money will come from to pay for immediate restoration then I would be more than interested.
As for holding the Govt to ransom by this striking madness I am actually ashamed and bewildered. We are all citizens of this country and it's long term financial stability is in all our best interests.
If anyone wants to argue this point, please do not respond without hard figures as to where the money will come from.
Kieran Christie certainly couldn't do it on Newstalk today. His interview was an embarrassment.
I think realistically full pay restoration of any teacher will Not happen next few year's but a better offer will . 2k offer btw ain't pensionable
. Can we pay the poor bondholders? Is Apple ok?! Grizzibho missed all the above .Obviously swallowed while corporate news services0 -
Dispute is also about conditions and middle management posts. This state could insist that corporations pay at least 12.5% in tax. I note poster above has dodged all my previous points. ENJOY weekend.0
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stopped reading posts here early last night as it became infected with the After Hours teacher bashing brigade.
Having thought about it more I think SC have been VERY smart in this.
One strike day before break and the s and s directive not kicking in till first day after is smart. It shows we are serious but at the same time there is likely to be talks over the mud term and the threat of with drawal of s and s first day back will help focus minds at said meetings .
Now it's the 7 days of proposes strikes imo where they have been very smart. Obviously this is a big threat to the govt BUT I also feel they are putting a bit of pressure on the membership too! If they come back with a "deal" it is likely to be more readily accepted by members not wanting to lose a week's wages before Xmas.............so minds are focussed now on all sides.
This brings me to my final point ..........what kind of a deal do we expect or accept?
It. ant just be LRA lite.....but it won't be too far from it or the govt risk opening the floodgates .
in my opinion any deal MUST include
1. Proper pay equalisation for LPTs
2. Provision for payment of S and S
3. No attempt to bring back CP hours
some movement on POR would also be desirable
I don't think any reduction in pension levy (pay restoration ) is realistic tbh
I'll be honest I don't and never have had a massive problem with s and s . In my opinion the supervision aspect of it anyway is something that I do voluntarily every day as I like to have a wander and a chat with the students at one of the breaks. I know this may not be a popular opinion but I think it really is a basic requirement of a teacher .......the subbing of course is a diff story but as someone involved in extra curricular I also understand the demands on. schools from this pov. So if we even got the 800 a year I'd see it as a bonus . Again not a popular opinion I suppose.
Now the CP hours are a diff story. They are my "red line issue" . They serve NO PURPOSEThey don't save money . They are demoralising. I will not sign up to any agreement they form part of.
what do ye think ?0 -
stopped reading posts here early last night as it became infected with the After Hours teacher bashing brigade.
Having thought about it more I think SC have been VERY smart in this.
One strike day before break and the s and s directive not kicking in till first day after is smart. It shows we are serious but at the same time there is likely to be talks over the mud term and the threat of with drawal of s and s first day back will help focus minds at said meetings .
Now it's the 7 days of proposes strikes imo where they have been very smart. Obviously this is a big threat to the govt BUT I also feel they are putting a bit of pressure on the membership too! If they come back with a "deal" it is likely to be more readily accepted by members not wanting to lose a week's wages before Xmas.............so minds are focussed now on all sides.
This brings me to my final point ..........what kind of a deal do we expect or accept?
It. ant just be LRA lite.....but it won't be too far from it or the govt risk opening the floodgates .
in my opinion any deal MUST include
1. Proper pay equalisation for LPTs
2. Provision for payment of S and S
3. No attempt to bring back CP hours
some movement on POR would also be desirable
I don't think any reduction in pension levy (pay restoration ) is realistic tbh
I'll be honest I don't and never have had a massive problem with s and s . In my opinion the supervision aspect of it anyway is something that I do voluntarily every day as I like to have a wander and a chat with the students at one of the breaks. I know this may not be a popular opinion but I think it really is a basic requirement of a teacher .......the subbing of course is a diff story but as someone involved in extra curricular I also understand the demands on. schools from this pov. So if we even got the 800 a year I'd see it as a bonus . Again not a popular opinion I suppose.
Now the CP hours are a diff story. They are my "red line issue" . They serve NO PURPOSEThey don't save money . They are demoralising. I will not sign up to any agreement they form part of.
what do ye think ?
If you (Asti) do make any deal, point 2 is already covered. Point 3 was dealt with in the budget. Posts will start to return next September and extra DPs for larger schools. Croke park hours will never be fully scrapped, but could eventually be further modified or reduced.
However point 1 will be the problem. I cant see them really going much further than the INTO/TUI deal at present. At best will be promise to continue restoration after the LRA expires. All the while you guys still have the problem of the junior cycle dispute going on.0 -
LRA lite with lots of promises to be honoured in 12/24 months time ........just like beforejoebloggs32 wrote: »If you (Asti) do make any deal, point 2 is already covered. Point 3 was dealt with in the budget. Posts will start to return next September and extra DPs for larger schools. Croke park hours will never be fully scrapped, but could eventually be further modified or reduced.
However point 1 will be the problem. I cant see them really going much further than the INTO/TUI deal at present. At best will be promise to continue restoration after the LRA expires. All the while you guys still have the problem of the junior cycle dispute going on.
Would not vote for that
And if I lose 4\5\6\7 days of pay to end up with that I'll be RAGING
so if that's what SC would accept o hope they do it over the mid term and just end the whole thing0 -
LRA lite with lots of promises to be honoured in 12/24 months time ........just like before
Would not vote for that
That's it exactly. How can we accept promises when the DES has proven it doesn't keep them. The SnS payments were promised under HRA and nowhere in that agreement was there any mention of those payments being contingent on us accepting the next agreement. So on the one hand, it's very hard to see how the inferior pay scales can be scrapped immediately but on the other hand how can the union sell a deal to it's members that is based on promises to scrap them. That's going to be the key issue in resolving this dispute.
The other issues are much easier to sort out. Re SnS we were quite happy to keep doing it as long as we got the HRA payments. So all they have to do is give us what was agreed.
With CP hours I think most members would accept 5 PTMs per year and one staff meeting per term but that's it.( Subject meetings were always something that took place informally in my school, often as a working lunch, before the CPA and should continue that way.) If the DES can be reasonable enough to accept that then that issue is easily resolved.
But the LPT issue is the difficult one and in my opinion it wouldn't be so if the DES hadn't shown that they can't be trusted to keep promises.0 -
coillsaille wrote: »That's it exactly. How can we accept promises when the DES has proven it doesn't keep them. The SnS payments were promised under HRA and nowhere in that agreement was there any mention of those payments being contingent on us accepting the next agreement. So on the one hand, it's very hard to see how the inferior pay scales can be scrapped immediately but on the other hand how can the union sell a deal to it's members that is based on promises to scrap them. That's going to be the key issue in resolving this dispute.
The other issues are much easier to sort out. Re SnS we were quite happy to keep doing it as long as we got the HRA payments. So all they have to do is give us what was agreed.
With CP hours I think most members would accept 5 PTMs per year and one staff meeting per term but that's it.( Subject meetings were always something that took place informally in my school, often as a working lunch, before the CPA and should continue that way.) If the DES can be reasonable enough to accept that then that issue is easily resolved.
But the LPT issue is the difficult one and in my opinion it wouldn't be so if the DES hadn't shown that they can't be trusted to keep promises.
Would agree very much with the above. S and S payment should not be an issue, honour the previous agreement and that deals with that. Croke Park hours could also easily be dealt with as above, but requires an acceptance by Government that outside of PT meetings and 1 staff meeting a term the other hours be scrapped. I would not vote for a deal that allows flexibility on 8 hours, 10 hours whatever. Coloured by experience in my own school here, but 5 hours at the moment are meant to be flexible, in our place they are not. They are still dictated by management and most staff just go along with that.
The LPT issue is the hard one to solve, pay discrimination is wrong, it has to be sorted. But how can we accept promises it will be when previous promises have been broken?
Also I really dont want us to enter an agreement which prevents any industrial action and hence an acceptance of Junior Cert. I would love a reform of Junior Cert curriculum in my subject but and I will not outline them here i have major concerns about the reforms as they stand.0 -
Lansdown Road Agreement (LRA) expires in 2018. A mere 14 months it will be 2018. I can see this industrial dispute dragging on till then. It will be cheaper for the gov to pay supervisors rather than throw out the LRA.
The union collective of INTO/ASTI/TUI and dept of ed&sci, Finace and public expenditure will be inevitably entering discussions sometime in advance of this LRA ending.
I predict nothing exceptional coming out of this induatrial action and the normal course of talks taking place in advance of one agreement ending and beginning of a new one in 2018.
The ASTI may well claim some form of success in 2018, however this is untrue as long as they remain outside the collective.0 -
Also I really dont want us to enter an agreement which prevents any industrial action and hence an acceptance of Junior Cert. I would love a reform of Junior Cert curriculum in my subject but and I will not outline them here i have major concerns about the reforms as they stand.
Yes I totally agree and forgot to mention that. I for one have had enough of these agreements. Firstly they are now completely meaningless in terms of achieving anything for us after the DES reneged on the last one, secondly they prevent us from taking action when we are attacked, as happened to NQTs during CP, or when promised are broken.
The ideal outcome would be a settlement on SnS and additional hours, as I outlined above, along with an agreed time frame for scrapping inferior pay scales - but without us having to enter LRA. Such a deal would be easier to sell to members and would leave us free to take action if the DES didn't stick to the time frame.
But I don't know if such an settlement is possible.0 -
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shopper2011 wrote: »Lansdown Road Agreement (LRA) expires in 2018. A mere 14 months it will be 2018. I can see this industrial dispute dragging on till then. It will be cheaper for the gov to pay supervisors rather than throw out the LRA.
The union collective of INTO/ASTI/TUI and dept of ed&sci, Finace and public expenditure will be inevitably entering discussions sometime in advance of this LRA ending.
I predict nothing exceptional coming out of this induatrial action and the normal course of talks taking place in advance of one agreement ending and beginning of a new one in 2018.
The ASTI may well claim some form of success in 2018, however this is untrue as long as they remain outside the collective.
What about the nuclear and thermonuclear options : Full all out strike and last minute directive in early june to withdraw from JC/LC correcting?0
This discussion has been closed.
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