ASTI OctNov Action *Post 1 for usual plea for restraint Especially New Posters *

Lord TSC

Here's what gets me about the "But the country is broke" attitude. Not just the increase TDs got in the budget, but the fact that during the entire election last time, FG were falling over themselves to promote the fact the country was back on track, the recession was over, everything was great again, etc etc.

And now that people are saying "Ok, if everything is great, can we restore some of the lowered conditions", its back to "Oh hang on, the country is in trouble".

It can't be both ways for the government. You don't get to promote the idea of the economy being fixed, and then when everyone says "Great, so...", throwing the hands up and saying that its not.

tayto lover

Lord TSC wrote: »

Here's what gets me about the "But the country is broke" attitude. Not just the increase TDs got in the budget, but the fact that during the entire election last time, FG were falling over themselves to promote the fact the country was back on track, the recession was over, everything was great again, etc etc.

And now that people are saying "Ok, if everything is great, can we restore some of the lowered conditions", its back to "Oh hang on, the country is in trouble".

It can't be both ways for the government. You don't get to promote the idea of the economy being fixed, and then when everyone says "Great, so...", throwing the hands up and saying that its not.

That angered me too.
It just proves that they are liars either way.

political analyst

Lord TSC wrote: »

Here's what gets me about the "But the country is broke" attitude. Not just the increase TDs got in the budget, but the fact that during the entire election last time, FG were falling over themselves to promote the fact the country was back on track, the recession was over, everything was great again, etc etc.

And now that people are saying "Ok, if everything is great, can we restore some of the lowered conditions", its back to "Oh hang on, the country is in trouble".

It can't be both ways for the government. You don't get to promote the idea of the economy being fixed, and then when everyone says "Great, so...", throwing the hands up and saying that its not.

Why not challenge the TDs' pay increase in the courts on the grounds of discrimination?

mirrorwall14

The s and s is easily sorted by allowing an opt out and paying for it.

The NQT issue is a broader public service issue and I think the government as a whole are going to have to suck it up at this stage and layout a plan to restore everyone to one pay scale and allowances over the next few years. I honestly don't understand why they haven't done it already. It won't cost 2 billion, that figure includes pay restoration for all other public servants of pension levy and cuts etc. The government could fight those far more easily if they took the unfairness at the bottom of the scale so I do not understand it except that they want their money back and don't give a crap about new entrants.


However the croke park hours are not as easy. Other civil servants are doing them (albeit that at least it's not detention and they are productive) so there needs to be some Jiggery poker by the government and unions on this one.

After a long chat between some teachers and non teachers last night I think they may have to do something like all teachers are timetabled for a
40 mins preparation class a week (not to be done collectively but properly on their timetable. We all plan during our frees anyway let's be realistic about it. That gets 22hrs done during the school year. Couple that with the PT meetings and staff meetings not in prior agreements and I think you are there.

That would allow the government the optics that we are still doing croke park hours the same as everyone else. It includes more class preparation in our number of hours worked which is no harm for future OECD reports and perceptions etc. It is stil non contact time. I think all teachers would prefer recognition of work we do rather than sitting in ridiculous meetings and it is the middle ground between breaking Landsdowne Road versus staying in.

spurious

political analyst wrote: »

Why not challenge the TDs' pay increase in the courts on the grounds of discrimination?

Why not benchmark them to a starting teacher's salary as they were on when I started teaching in 1984?

implausible

mirrorwall14 wrote:

After a long chat between some teachers and non teachers last night I think they may have to do something like all teachers are timetabled for a 40 mins preparation class a week (not to be done collectively but properly on their timetable. We all plan during our frees anyway let's be realistic about it. That gets 22hrs done during the school year. Couple that with the PT meetings and staff meetings not in prior agreements and I think you are there.

The new JC arrangements reduce involved teachers' timetables by 40 mins, so that might work.

Lord TSC

political analyst wrote: »

Why not challenge the TDs' pay increase in the courts on the grounds of discrimination?

I mean, I'd have neither the money nor the knowledge of how to even start doing that.

political analyst

Lord TSC wrote: »

I mean, I'd have neither the money nor the knowledge of how to even start doing that.

Then why don't the unions consider it?

jayo76

I would much prefer to have a 40 minute preparation/ correction class a week than continue to endure the tripe we do at the moment as Croke Park hours. Of course everyone does know the vast majority of teachers put multiples of 40 minutes into correction and prep anyway, not to mention extra curriculur or so I would be very surprised if the Government or management bodies went with this. The attitude seems to be teachers will continue with that anyway, lets force them into these pointless meetings.

Lord TSC

political analyst wrote: »

Then why don't the unions consider it?

Admittedly, this is just an off of the top of my head guess. But maybe because it's not technically "discrimination"? Maybe cause they feel there'd be no point, as a court case would yield no positive result, yet be very expensive. Maybe they feel the strikes are a better, more efficient way to both get their point across and achieve the best results for their members?

As far as "discrimination"...I'd imagine, legally, the TDs are within their right to increase their own wages. Morally, maybe not, and it undercuts their ability to say "the country is in financial trouble". But I don't know, legally, if there's any grounds to challenge for "discrimination".

feardeas

km79 wrote: »

stopped reading posts here early last night as it became infected with the After Hours teacher bashing brigade.
Having thought about it more I think SC have been VERY smart in this.
One strike day before break and the s and s directive not kicking in till first day after is smart. It shows we are serious but at the same time there is likely to be talks over the mud term and the threat of with drawal of s and s first day back will help focus minds at said meetings .
Now it's the 7 days of proposes strikes imo where they have been very smart. Obviously this is a big threat to the govt BUT I also feel they are putting a bit of pressure on the membership too! If they come back with a "deal" it is likely to be more readily accepted by members not wanting to lose a week's wages before Xmas.............so minds are focussed now on all sides.
This brings me to my final point ..........what kind of a deal do we expect or accept?
It. ant just be LRA lite.....but it won't be too far from it or the govt risk opening the floodgates .
in my opinion any deal MUST include
1. Proper pay equalisation for LPTs
2. Provision for payment of S and S
3. No attempt to bring back CP hours
some movement on POR would also be desirable
I don't think any reduction in pension levy (pay restoration ) is realistic tbh

I'll be honest I don't and never have had a massive problem with s and s . In my opinion the supervision aspect of it anyway is something that I do voluntarily every day as I like to have a wander and a chat with the students at one of the breaks. I know this may not be a popular opinion but I think it really is a basic requirement of a teacher .......the subbing of course is a diff story but as someone involved in extra curricular I also understand the demands on. schools from this pov. So if we even got the 800 a year I'd see it as a bonus . Again not a popular opinion I suppose.

Now the CP hours are a diff story. They are my "red line issue" . They serve NO PURPOSEThey don't save money . They are demoralising. I will not sign up to any agreement they form part of.

what do ye think ?

Glad to see people thinking about a resolution. IMO your point on S and S will be a given.

Pay equalisation may happen over time, I think a time scale might have to be agreed and that might have to be dependent on the economy. A similar clause was in Croke Park.

As for the CP hours, I don't like them either but I think they should have been managed in a much better way. They could have been used to help distribute leadership among staff. However I assume that the ptm would have to be outside school or at least those not covered by previous agreements. Also staff meetings are needed and could be part of it as well. If there was genuine flexibility regarding the use of the 10 (from next year) discretionary hours and that they could be used for CPD/extra curricular/individual planning and departmental planning [minus the set menu from Principal and DP] they might be more palatable. I don't see them being taken off the table now.

I don't know what shape a deal will be but I think if it is enough to get a recommendation for acceptance it will be especially if we've been at the gate for seven days.

I also expect the new junior cycle to be sorted out as well. I teach English and that situation is a shambolic farce at this stage.

mirrorwall14

implausible wrote: »

The new JC arrangements reduce involved teachers' timetables by 40 mins, so that might work.

Yeah thats what I was thinking. Its a fairly easy fix because it just bangs us back up to the 22hrs making it a very easy sell for the government. Even with previous agreements on PT meetings it would come very close.

As far as I know Prior Agreements have 3 PT meetings after school and 3 staff meetings half in half out. Almost every school in the country uses Croke park hours for 2 additional meetings. Add in an extra staff meeting along with removing the 1/2 in 1/2 out bit with that and you are almost at 33hours

Danick

I'm a secondary school teacher with two kids under two and I want my children to get a solid education from the local secondary school in ten years time.

The reason we have such good hard working and committed teachers in this country is because the job used to be an attractive proposition - decent pay and holidays. It is a very difficult job that requires many hours of preparation outside of school.

Think about it - if we offer poor pay to our new entrants then we will lose the really talented people to other professions and attract people who are not suited to teaching. We will be left with a teaching force that won't have the brains or dedication required to educate out children to the highest level.

In future before people start to talk about the obvious perks of teaching - think about this - do we want bright motivated teachers teaching our children in the future?

Lord TSC

Danick wrote: »

In future before people start to talk about the obvious perks of teaching - think about this - do we want bright motivated teachers teaching our children in the future?

The sad fact is there's a healthy chunk of the general public who see teachers as little more than spoiled babysitters, not educators, and thus really don't care about them being "bright" and "motivated"

Mardy Bum

Lord TSC wrote: »

Danick wrote: »

In future before people start to talk about the obvious perks of teaching - think about this - do we want bright motivated teachers teaching our children in the future?

The sad fact is there's a healthy chunk of the general public who see teachers as little more than spoiled babysitters, not educators, and thus really don't care about them being "bright" and "motivated"

This is the crux here. Teaching in Ireland used to be valued. Now it is not and the opprobrium directed at teachers from those who have not even attended third level speaks volumes, never mind those who automatically think teaching is beneath them who work in certain professions which pay considerably more initially and in the long run. In the past these people respected teachers. The boom has contributed to this along with the failings of individual teachers and principals which are used to tar a profession.

The drop in pay has already had an effect on the standard of candidates applying for PDE/PME's from what I can see.

oppenheimer1

Lord TSC wrote: »

The sad fact is there's a healthy chunk of the general public who see teachers as little more than spoiled babysitters, not educators, and thus really don't care about them being "bright" and "motivated"

You would have to admit that for a few thats exactly what they are - and there's a small number of them in every school.

Unlike the rest of the public service, almost everyone has been through the public education system and has seen woeful underperformance by a small number of teachers - yet nothing was, or could be done about it due to the depts hands being tied by the unions. These so called educators have damaged many young people and it angers many that they were able to continue "teaching".

If the ASTI were serious about their profession rather than protectionism then they would be to the forefront of wanting real reform of conditions. No one would have an issue with good teachers being rewarded and slackers being punished.

feardeas

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

The s and s is easily sorted by allowing an opt out and paying for it.

The NQT issue is a broader public service issue and I think the government as a whole are going to have to suck it up at this stage and layout a plan to restore everyone to one pay scale and allowances over the next few years. I honestly don't understand why they haven't done it already. It won't cost 2 billion, that figure includes pay restoration for all other public servants of pension levy and cuts etc. The government could fight those far more easily if they took the unfairness at the bottom of the scale so I do not understand it except that they want their money back and don't give a crap about new entrants.


However the croke park hours are not as easy. Other civil servants are doing them (albeit that at least it's not detention and they are productive) so there needs to be some Jiggery poker by the government and unions on this one.

After a long chat between some teachers and non teachers last night I think they may have to do something like all teachers are timetabled for a
40 mins preparation class a week (not to be done collectively but properly on their timetable. We all plan during our frees anyway let's be realistic about it. That gets 22hrs done during the school year. Couple that with the PT meetings and staff meetings not in prior agreements and I think you are there.

That would allow the government the optics that we are still doing croke park hours the same as everyone else. It includes more class preparation in our number of hours worked which is no harm for future OECD reports and perceptions etc. It is stil non contact time. I think all teachers would prefer recognition of work we do rather than sitting in ridiculous meetings and it is the middle ground between breaking Landsdowne Road versus staying in.

That sounds reasonable in fairness. Wish 40 minutes was all it would take but it might just work. Might be mumbling about whole school things but proper staff meetings could do those in jig time and a proper middle management system with time concessions and pay focussed on real school needs rather than some of the nonsense would help too.

That could be those taken care of. S and S would be covered as per LRA and a definite timetable for equalisation. Still think we'll be out a while before anything is done mind you.

evolving_doors

Latest from Irish Times 'paper of record'.

Dept is going to get the parents in... As principals and deputies get no ASTI derogation then the parents will effectively be running the show, (presume the secretary will be left with a few tips to pass on).

I suppose, shur how hard can it be to supervise 30 teenagers in a class. Or a few hundred at lunch time.

judeboy101

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Latest from Irish Times 'paper of record'.

Dept is going to get the parents in... As principals and deputies get no ASTI derogation then the parents will effectively be running the show, (presume the secretary will be left with a few tips to pass on).

I suppose, shur how hard can it be to supervise 30 teenagers in a class. Or a few hundred at lunch time.

They are welcome to my 2B science class anyday

man_no_plan

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

After a long chat between some teachers and non teachers last night I think they may have to do something like all teachers are timetabled for a
40 mins preparation class a week (not to be done collectively but properly on their timetable. We all plan during our frees anyway let's be realistic about it. That gets 22hrs done during the school year. Couple that with the PT meetings and staff meetings not in prior agreements and I think you are there.

That would allow the government the optics that we are still doing croke park hours the same as everyone else. It includes more class preparation in our number of hours worked which is no harm for future OECD reports and perceptions etc. It is stil non contact time. I think all teachers would prefer recognition of work we do rather than sitting in ridiculous meetings and it is the middle ground between breaking Landsdowne Road versus staying in.

So stick in the planning class along with the TT reduction from JC to bring it back up to a theoretical 22hrs per week? Or everyone goes back to 22hiurs and does the JC work in their own time?

the2kwans

<snip> anti-teacher generalising.
Please read the charter.

Mardy Bum

Bruton says we are going to be removed from the payroll if we go ahead with industrial action according to INDO.

Cam someone please describe to me how we new teachers are getting a 22% pay increase when the only thing we got in LRA was 2000?

2011abc

(Threaten) All out strike if pay stopped for not doing the work we aren't/weren't paid for .Simple !

jayo76

How can i be docked pay or removed from payroll if i am not available to do a task I am currently paying not to do?? I have taken a 1500 euro a year pay cut to opt out of S and S, if I am then to be removed from the payroll due to non availability for this surely it would be illegal.

griffzinho

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Bruton says we are going to be removed from the payroll if we go ahead with industrial action according to INDO.

Cam someone please describe to me how we new teachers are getting a 22% pay increase when the only thing we got in LRA was 2000?

€796 x 2 = €1592 supervision payment
€1,000 under Lra next year
€1,000 x 2 under Into and Tui deal
€1,500 approx average increment per year in this period of Lra.

That possibly totals approx 22% or more and is all in all and all very good during a 26/27 month period.

Remember a lot of private sector employees get no increment.

Mardy Bum

griffzinho wrote: »

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Bruton says we are going to be removed from the payroll if we go ahead with industrial action according to INDO.

Cam someone please describe to me how we new teachers are getting a 22% pay increase when the only thing we got in LRA was 2000?

796 x 2 = 1592 supervision payment
1,000 under Lra next year
1,000 x 2 under Into and Tui deal
1,500 approx average increment per year in this period of Lra.

That possibly totals approx 22% or more and is all in all and all very good during a 26/27 month period.

Remember a lot of private sector employees get no increment.

The increment is what ever teacher gets and you have to work 600 hours to get so it has nothing to do with pay equalisation. My last increment was less than 800 euro. Yes in the private sector if you are good you get raises or move employer. You cannot do this as a teacher.

Every teacher is entitled to s and s. I have been doing that for two years for nothing and was promised I'd be paid for it two years ago.

None of this is pay equalisation apart from TUI INTO deal which reinforces two tier pay.

Lord TSC

Quick question.

My brother is a sub teacher in a school that, as far as I know, is entirely ASTI. He's not a union member (none of the subs are) and he gets two or three days a week most weeks.

Is he basically going to find the phone stops ringing while this is going on? My understanding is that by withdrawing from S&S, "normal teachers" (by which I mean timetabled ones, be they full or part time, are basically saying "No teacher shall do any more S&S in this school". Hence the whole discussions of parents having to be brought in to supervise, etc.

Or will sub teachers, the ones who wait for the phonecall, now find their timetables filled right up, and they'll be given the S&S work before they get the non-teachers in?

History Queen

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Bruton says we are going to be removed from the payroll if we go ahead with industrial action according to INDO.

Cam someone please describe to me how we new teachers are getting a 22% pay increase when the only thing we got in LRA was 2000?

And not every new teacher is getting even 2000. Some are getting nothing if higher up post 2011 scale and some are getting less than 500 euro. The lies being reported as fact are breathtaking

deiseindublin

Can ASTI teachers legally be removed from payroll if they turn up to work as per their contact? Seems farsical.

griffzinho

Mardy Bum wrote: »

The increment is what ever teacher gets and you have to work 600 hours to get so it has nothing to do with pay equalisation. My last increment was less than 800 euro. Yes in the private sector if you are good you get raises or move employer. You cannot do this as a teacher.

Every teacher is entitled to s and s. I have been doing that for two years for nothing and was promised I'd be paid for it two years ago.

None of this is pay equalisation apart from TUI INTO deal which reinforces two tier pay.

It is still an approx 22% rise in pay over 26/27 months. That is what you asked to be explained. That is what you got. There can be no debate. It is a rise in pay from point x to a point y that is approximately 22% higher within thetimeframe specified. Dispute that all you want but Maths doesn't lie. It is 22% increase in a time when inflation is at or near 0 to 1% per year to BTW.

As for increments. Pay rise percentages are expressed in gross pay terms. Your 'net' increment would be far less admittedly due to tax, pension and pension levy deductions.