Traffic offence letter from NI?

danindub

Hi all,

New one for me (as a new driver...). I drove my partner's car (I'm insured) to Belfast last week and today he received letter calling for £45/£90 penalty fee in his name, for taking left turn in a bus lane, together with photo of a car and reg plate.

Makes me wonder, firstly surely the owner of a vehicle doesn't have responsibility for the fee and quite frankly doesn't need to know where his/her car is used, and secondly, NI can't possibly execute the payment order on him?

Any thoughts would be most appreciated.

Notch000

if it wasnt a registered letter i'd use it to start the fire

cml387

The registered owner most certainly does have responsibility for the fee.

I don't think the PSNI can enforce a fine down here however.

MarkR

danindub wrote: »

Hi all,

New one for me (as a new driver...). I drove my partner's car (I'm insured) to Belfast last week and today he received letter calling for £45/£90 penalty fee in his name, for taking left turn in a bus lane, together with photo of a car and reg plate.

Makes me wonder, firstly surely the owner of a vehicle doesn't have responsibility for the fee and quite frankly doesn't need to know where his/her car is used, and secondly, NI can't possibly execute the payment order on him?

Any thoughts would be most appreciated.

As the registered owner, it would be assumed that they were driving. Of course they need to know who is driving their car. You don't let random people off the street drive it!

And you may be pursued through the courts for it also it seems.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/motorists-who-ignore-fines-from-the-north-to-face-court-26637772.html

cml387

That's from 2010. I wonder has it actually ever happened?

markpb

danindub wrote: »

Makes me wonder, firstly surely the owner of a vehicle doesn't have responsibility for the fee and quite frankly doesn't need to know where his/her car is used

How do you think speed camera vans work here?

Agricola

I'd be inclined to have a bout of selective amnesia about it too. Or write back that you'll pay motoring fines in NI when re-takes it's rightful place under the jurisdiction of 'Ireland'

danindub

markpb wrote: »

How do you think speed camera vans work here?

I actually don't know. But I've heard about tickets from speed cameras being successfully challenged.

If you wear my shoes to walk off a cliff, am I guilty of your murder?

Henry Ford III

Failure to pay will see the car up on ANPR, and likely be pulled next time it's in N.I.

cml387

danindub wrote: »

I actually don't know. But I've heard about tickets from speed cameras being successfully challenged.

If you wear my shoes to walk off a cliff, am I guilty of your murder?

Regardless of what you think, the registered owner of the vehicle is liable unless they can prove otherwise. It happens all the time,for example where a car is shared by a couple. There is an option on the paperwork for the culprit to fess up.

markpb

danindub wrote: »

I actually don't know. But I've heard about tickets from speed cameras being successfully challenged.

Did you hear that from a freeman?

danindub

cml387 wrote: »

Regardless of what you think, the registered owner of the vehicle is liable unless they can prove otherwise. It happens all the time,for example where a car is shared by a couple. There is an option on the paperwork for the culprit to fess up.

Interesting, generally it would be prosecuting side's job to proof beyond reasonable doubt that defendant is guilty, not defendant's that he's not?

How can owner possibly proof he wasn't driving at the time? Because he wasn't

andekwarhola

Imagine people dedicated the same time to driving and observing the road as they did to barrack room lawyering when they get caught.

danindub

andekwarhola wrote: »

Imagine people dedicated the same time to driving and observing the road as they did to barrack room lawyering when they get caught.

Funny you said that, see in ROI you can enter bus lane for left turn. Apparently in NI you can't... So there.

R.O.R

danindub wrote: »

Funny you said that, see in ROI you can enter bus lane for left turn. Apparently in NI you can't... So there.

Ignorance of driving laws in a foreign country is no defence. So there.

cml387

danindub wrote: »

Funny you said that, see in ROI you can enter bus lane for left turn. Apparently in NI you can't... So there.

Really? I didn't think so. But I stand to be corrected.

danindub

R.O.R wrote: »

Ignorance of driving laws in a foreign country is no defence. So there.

And I'm not saying it is. I'm saying that I don't see how my partner can be made responsible for the fine if I refuse to pay it.

vandriver

If there is a permitted left turn,the bus lane ends before the junction to give ordinary motorists room to pull over legally.
(I know you are a new driver,but your observation skills need to improve quickly)

MarkR

danindub wrote: »

Funny you said that, see in ROI you can enter bus lane for left turn. Apparently in NI you can't... So there.

Swing and a miss. Strike 2.

robbie99

danindub wrote: »

Funny you said that, see in ROI you can enter bus lane for left turn. Apparently in NI you can't... So there.

You can over take on the left if you are turning left and have indicated your intention. But that doesn't mean you can drive in a bus lane.

GM228

danindub wrote: »

Interesting, generally it would be prosecuting side's job to proof beyond reasonable doubt that defendant is guilty, not defendant's that he's not?

Not entirely correct, the prosecution has fulfilled it's legal burden of proof by using a photo or other evidence the vehicle has done something illegal.

As the registered owner is presumed to be liable unless proved otherwise the evidential burden of proof transfers to the registered owner to show they weren't driving.

If the evidence is so strong against a person (such as a photo of their vehicle) so as to leave only a remote possibility in their favour, which can be dismissed with the sentence "of course it is possible, but not in the least probably," without any evidence to suggest otherwise the case is proved beyond a reasonable doubt.

ohnonotgmail

danindub wrote: »

And I'm not saying it is. I'm saying that I don't see how my partner can be made responsible for the fine if I refuse to pay it.

she can be absolved of that responsibility by telling the PSNI that you were driving. it then becomes your responsibility.

Mint Sauce

danindub wrote: »

And I'm not saying it is. I'm saying that I don't see how my partner can be made responsible for the fine if I refuse to pay it.

Is there points being applied? Then you just write back/sign the form to say who was driving. If its just a fine, I would be inclined to pay, and argue amongst your self on who owes who.

NI is litterered with APNR, as are most patrol cars. The plate will be possibly flagged if there is a fine outstanding, possibilty pulled over, and escorted to the nearest ATM to pay

endagibson

Mint Sauce wrote: »

NI is litterered with APNR, as are most patrol cars. The plate will be possibly flagged if there is a fine outstanding, possibilty pulled over, and escorted to the nearest ATM to pay

You'll be lucky if that's all that happens.

ironclaw

endagibson wrote: »

You'll be lucky if that's all that happens.

+1 on this. PSNI are far, far more advanced than their counter parts in the Republic. I'd recommend you pay the fine OP as it could make for a larger fine and a stern roadside talking to. Your partner could also be hauled up to a station to sort it all out if pulled. For the sake of the few pounds, settle it and be done.

endagibson

ironclaw wrote: »

+1 on this. PSNI are far, far more advanced than their counter parts in the Republic. I'd recommend you pay the fine OP as it could make for a larger fine and a stern roadside talking to. Your partner could also be hauled up to a station to sort it all out if pulled. For the sake of the few pounds, settle it and be done.

Thinking on what would happen next; does the fine increase similar to in the ROI and then go to court? If the OP's partner doesn't go to court, if there a failure to appear warrant issued (or whatever such a thing would be called)?

Walter2016

endagibson wrote: »

Thinking on what would happen next; does the fine increase similar to in the ROI and then go to court? If the OP's partner doesn't go to court, if there a failure to appear warrant issued (or whatever such a thing would be called)?

Very simply done - fine increases, then court action, then if no attendance a higher court imposed fine, then out for collection.

Is it worth it?

Mint Sauce

endagibson wrote: »

Thinking on what would happen next; does the fine increase similar to in the ROI and then go to court? If the OP's partner doesn't go to court, if there a failure to appear warrant issued (or whatever such a thing would be called)?

Just dont plan on driving to NI anytime soon if the OP allows it to escalate to that. I stand corrected on my last comment, although would still say that would be the least that would happen before it escalated. You dont mess with them lads and girls, even at checkpoints, when you have one officer with side arms, having the chat, how are you sir, where are you going today, and a second standing on the kerb with a semi automatic, you mind your P's and Q's.

jgorres

danindub wrote: »

If you wear my shoes to walk off a cliff, am I guilty of your murder?

You never know, if it comes to court :rolleyes:

Fluffy Cat 88

ironclaw wrote: »

+1 on this. PSNI are far, far more advanced than their counter parts in the Republic. I'd recommend you pay the fine OP as it could make for a larger fine and a stern roadside talking to. Your partner could also be hauled up to a station to sort it all out if pulled. For the sake of the few pounds, settle it and be done.

If you plan on ever visiting NI again in that car, pay the fine and consider it a lesson learned.

911s

Do the NI authorities have access to our registered owner database or how did they find out owners name & address

eringobragh

I got a parking fine up north 3 years ago, no less than 6 letters landed last one being very threatening saying they'd lift the car when I'm in the North again - good luck with that lads

Was so close to bunging some Monopoly money in an envelope and posting it up to them.

Anyway the parking fines are civil issue with council so the peelers won't get involved there. Not sure if this extends to speeding / bus lane fines

GM228

911s wrote: »

Do the NI authorities have access to our registered owner database or how did they find out owners name & address

Yes they do, Ireland and the UK have shared details for many years now, and from 6th May 2017 Ireland (as well as the UK and Denmark) will join the rest of the EU in sharing data with each other.

ScouseMouse

A few years ago someone I know got a gatso fine in the post in the UK and nominated an irish family member as the driver. The irish family member got a letter asking were they the driver and it was just binned. Another letter a few weeks later, and that was binned.

Nothing ever came of it.

blindsider

Presume that Brexit, esp. a 'hard' Brexit will put a stop to all this data sharing.....

GM228

eringobragh wrote: »

Anyway the parking fines are civil issue with council so the peelers won't get involved there. Not sure if this extends to speeding / bus lane fines

Indeed most prking fine are a civil issue in Northern Ireland as they are enforced under decriminalised parking enforcement (DPE), however some parking infractions such as dangerous parking or parking causing an obstruction are not decriminalised and are enforced through criminal proceedings just like speeding etc is still a criminal matter which can land you in hot water with the PSNI.

ScouseMouse

Just a hypothetical question, but if the owner nominated a named driver at a friends address, and they ignored the letter, what would happen?

The registered owner did their duty?

GM228

blindsider wrote: »

Presume that Brexit, esp. a 'hard' Brexit will put a stop to all this data sharing.....

Probably not, the agreement is between Ireland and the UK and nothing to do with the EU.

markpb

GM228 wrote: »

Probably not, the agreement is between Ireland and the UK and nothing to do with the EU.

But the transfer of personal information out of the EU might be something they'd worry about.

GM228

markpb wrote: »

But the transfer of personal information out of the EU might be something they'd worry about.

With regards the transfer of information to third countries (non-EU countries) there are no issues at EU level once the third country has an adequate level of data protection, the EU even gives a list on non EU countries who have data protection in line with EU standards and the list includes Switzerland, Guernsey, Argentina, Isle of Man, Faroe Islands, Jersey, Andorra, Israel, New Zealand, Uruguay, the US and Canada.

Considering the UK already has DP in line with EU standards I don't think the EU could exclude the UK post Brexit unless the UK reduced their DP standards which is extremely unlikely to happen.

In anycase I doubt any issue would arise as DP does not apply to the prevention or investigation of criminal offences.

ohnonotgmail

blindsider wrote: »

Presume that Brexit, esp. a 'hard' Brexit will put a stop to all this data sharing.....

I wouldn't presume anything about what will happen post brexit.

Commotion Ocean

PSNI have no access to database in Shannon. How did they get your information and location?

I'd say if you were caught doing 120 mph on a dual carriageway, then the Gardaí might play ball with the PSNI and give the police up there the information corresponding to your plates, ....... but for something as petty as misusing a bus lane for an illegal turn, Jesus.

GM228

dfeo wrote: »

PSNI have no access to database in Shannon. How did they get your information and location?

Yes they do, since March 2010 Shannon and the DVA have access to each others systems through an information sharing agreement.

Commotion Ocean

GM228 wrote: »

Yes they do, since March 2010 Shannon and the DVA have access to each others systems.

What's the point though, if it isn't enforceable? Many posters are saying to just use it as kindling.

Will the Gardaí act on it and enforce it on behalf of the PSNI? Will they forcefuly bring you up the Belfast to court up there if you refuse to pay?

GM228

dfeo wrote: »

What's the point though, if it isn't enforceable? Many posters are saying to just use it as kindling.

Will the Gardaí act on it and enforce it on behalf of the PSNI? Will they forcefuly bring you up the Belfast to court up there if you refuse to pay?

No the Gardaí and PSNI can't enforce outside of each others jurisdiction.

However the benefit is if the PSNI know who you are and your stopped or flagged again up North for whatever reason you may find yourself arrested on foot of an outstanding warrant for failing to pay your fine or failing to attend court.

Commotion Ocean

GM228 wrote: »

No the Gardaí and PSNI can't enforce outside of each others jurisdiction.

However the benefit is if the PSNI know who you are and your stopped or flagged again up North for whatever reason you may find yourself arrested on foot of an outstanding warrant for failing to pay your fine or failing to attend court.

Really? So if I was caught by a PSNI camera doing 200 km/h on the A1, they'd send the ticket down here and that would be the end of it, so long as I don't go back to the UK before the statute of limitations expires on the offense?

Would I not be banned by the PSNI in my absence? Under a recent EU legislation, driving bans are mutually recognisable in ALL EU countries now.

GM228

dfeo wrote: »

Really? So if I was caught by a PSNI camera doing 200 km/h on the A1, they'd send the ticket down here and that would be the end of it, so long as I don't go back to the UK before the statute of limitations expires on the offense?

Would I not be banned by the PSNI in my absence? Under a recent EU legislation, driving bans are mutually recognisable in ALL EU countries now.

Yes you can be convinced and fined in your absence. A warrant can still issue for non-payment of the fine. The PSNI don't ban you but the courts could.

Mutual recognition of driving disqualification is only in place between Ireland and Northern Ireland*** - not the entire EU. The EU wide recognition is of driving offences (Ireland, UK and Denmark currently exempt), not driving disqualifications.

One thing to note about the agreement is if you are disqualified from driving in the North the authorities inforn the NDLS and the Gardaí and the ban also applies to your Irish licence and vice versa.

**The mutual recognition of disqualification agreement between Ireland and Northern Ireland is currently inactive (since 2015) but will be re-activated by the Transport Bill 2016.

cml387

Anyone who has witnessed a Northern registered car hurtling down the overtaking lane with not a care in the world will soundly applaud this initiative.