Too many firearms

Bogwoppit

An interesting one here.

http://www.kildarenow.com/news/thousands-of-gun-licenses-in-small-proximity-leading-to-concern-by-co-kildare-superintendent/120539

Grizzly 45

Think we have found the "Texas" of Ireland.:D:D
In one word "So?".What is the super trying to say here?He is supposed to judge the applications on merit ,not on how many there are in his district.[6.5 per square kilometer going by his figures.]

Cass

That is the same "news outlet" that brought us gems such as this.

The article shows a picture of a Colt 1911 that was taken from Wikipedia. The pictured firearm is a 45 calibre pistol which cannot be legally licensed in Ireland since 2009. Also trying to license a pistol for "killing vermin" (as the quoted reason for the firearm in the article) is against the law as the only legitimate use for a pistol is target shooting. Also the applicant must be a member of an authorised pistol/rifle range.

Only .22 lr calibre pistols can be licensed since 2009 for the reasons above. The article makes no mention of the type of firearm being sought, which is most likely a rifle. Showing the pistol they have, and reading the article it would imply the person involved in the case is seeking a non licenseable firearm for illegal purposes.

Cass

Sorry in advance for the figures below. Was thinking as i wrote it so it may meander a little.

As for the current article the Super is complaining about 2,500 (claimed) firearm licenses within a 380 sq km area. Surely that is down to where geography. IOW you'll find a higher concentration of people within a set distance from a town or village. As you move out to more rural areas where the population density is a fraction of that in a town then the number of firearms per square Km is going to be less.

Kildare County has an area of 1680 square Kms. It has a population of 222,000 people. On average (which is less than accurate) that is 132 people per square km.

So 2,500 licenses/guns in 380 sq kms is 1% of the population in 25% of the county. If we take that average over the entire county then it's 4% have firearm licenses over the entire county. Which means some 10,000 licenses. That means the other 25 counties have the other 99.5% of the total amount of licenses.

It's important to distinguish licenses from guns as the article/Super states. People have more than one gun, are joint license holders, etc. So the amount of licenses is NOT an accurate measure of the amount of guns. We have a rough idea of the mount of licenses in the country. It's in the 210,000 region. So if we take the figures above then 0.5% of the total firearms licenses in the country are licensed in Kildare.


You see now how the math does not support the truth of the situation. You cannot apply averages across the county as people don't live in locations based on averages. You'll find a higher percentage living closer to towns than in rural areas so the figures will be skewered towards a higher rate near towns or in clusters. Then take into account gun clubs, ranges, etc. and you'll find that number gets higher again.

Lastly its the same mistake made on how people base the national figures. 210,000 licenses over a population of 4.4 million. Divide one into the other and you get 4.5%. The problem is there are not 210,000 people with guns it's 210,000 licenses. Considering those with two or more guns, those with joint licenses, etc. the number of people with firearms is more along the 150,000 marker. So now the figure goes from 4.5% to 3% or so.

ezra_

The key thing here is Judge Zaidan. He is new to the area, was up the West before

Google his name on the legal forum, this is the judge who (rightly I think) locks up people who drive with no insurance or dangerously. He is quick with custodial sentences and large fines (again, I agree with him on a lot of them like litter).

His name strikes fear into the briefs and if I was ever done for a speeding ticket in his area, even if I knew I wasn't actually speeding, if it was in his catchment area I'll just pay.

If he comes in on the side on the firearm holder, he will take no truck from the Guards. Same goes the otherway, I guess.

gunny123

ezra_ wrote: »

The key thing here is Judge Zaidan. He is new to the area, was up the West before

Google his name on the legal forum, this is the judge who (rightly I think) locks up people who drive with no insurance or dangerously. He is quick with custodial sentences and large fines (again, I agree with him on a lot of them like litter).

His name strikes fear into the briefs and if I was ever done for a speeding ticket in his area, even if I knew I wasn't actually speeding, if it was in his catchment area I'll just pay.

If he comes in on the side on the firearm holder, he will take no truck from the Guards. Same goes the otherway, I guess.

Seems unusual for an irish judge, normally they listen to sob stories from anto and deco and give suspended sentences for mass murder.

ezra_

gunny123 wrote: »

Seems unusual for an irish judge, normally they listen to sob stories from anto and deco and give suspended sentences for mass murder.

Nope - I think the technical term is a 'hanging' judge.
Doesn't seem to tolerate any crap from the people in front of him.

His stance on firearms will be interesting.

yubabill1

Sup't Wall is onto a loser there, saying that there is no policy.

He would have to treat the next guy with two guns the same as this guy, assuming the refusal is upheld, given Sup't Wall's concern about the prevalence of gun licences.

All this at a time when murders, weapons/firearms offences and burglaries continue their long-term decline (as if they had anything to do with licensed firearms)

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/frances-fitzgerald-responds-to-crime-figures-1.2592917

long range shooter

Strange they dont have that concern elsewhere in Europe??

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

looks like Ireland is quite far down on the list

clivej

"Concern is being voiced by a Co Kildare Superintendent about the high proximity of guns being licensed per square kilometre.
At Kilcock District Court yesterday, Niall Swan of Enfield, Co Meath, appeared, in relation to appealing the refusal of a firearm license."

http://bit.ly/2dVcUfd

ezra_

Thread about it here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057655724

Sparks

We're basically the second or third lowest on that list from what I can tell (we're ranked fourth-lowest, but we have a different definition of the word "firearm" from the others).

And the super's wrong. It's not 2500 firearms licenced in 380 square kilometres. It's 2500 firearms licenced in about 4 square metres. Unless he has a very big office.

Honestly, I don't know where to start on this one. The utterly atrocious spelling and grammar from a newspaper article? The lack of any context or current law in the content of the article? The daftness of the super's case as reported? The lack of any real details so you could make any judgements about the case for yourself?

The whole thing's a big crock of ....

long range shooter

Sparks wrote: »

We're basically the second or third lowest on that list from what I can tell (we're ranked fourth-lowest, but we have a different definition of the word "firearm" from the others).

And the super's wrong. It's not 2500 firearms licenced in 380 square kilometres. It's 2500 firearms licenced in about 4 square metres. Unless he has a very big office.

Honestly, I don't know where to start on this one. The utterly atrocious spelling and grammar from a newspaper article? The lack of any context or current law in the content of the article? The daftness of the super's case as reported? The lack of any real details so you could make any judgements about the case for yourself?

The whole thing's a big crock of ....

He needs a secretary for all the paperwork,thats where the problem is,i think:D

goz83

long range shooter wrote: »

He needs a secretary for all the paperwork,thats where the problem is,i think:D

Would be a very tight fit in a 4sqm office

g00167015

clivej wrote: »

"Concern is being voiced by a Co Kildare Superintendent about the high proximity of guns being licensed per square kilometre.
At Kilcock District Court yesterday, Niall Swan of Enfield, Co Meath, appeared, in relation to appealing the refusal of a firearm license."

http://bit.ly/2dVcUfd

The reason given by the Superintendant for the refusal has already been explicitly judged by the High Court to be unlawful.

The Superintendant has no entitlement under statute to even CONSIDER the fact that certificates are held in respect of other firearms. In doing so he is acting ultra-vires of his statutory discretion, in other words, illegally.

long range shooter

goz83 wrote: »

Would be a very tight fit in a 4sqm office

4 sqm is loads of space,can fit 3 in there

Sparks

g00167015 wrote: »

The reason given by the Superintendant for the refusal has already been explicitly judged by the High Court to be unlawful.

The Superintendant has no entitlement under statute to even CONSIDER the fact that certificates are held in respect of other firearms. In doing so he is acting ultra-vires of his statutory discretion, in other words, illegally.

Unfortunately not true and the Minister (McDowell) even defended the practice. It's not explicitly stated in the act as a specific section though. It's covered under section 4(2)(b) and "guidelines", which is why that section is so loosely worded.

Rimfire Shooter

Are the numbers above average compared to other equivalent areas?

Isn't there one or more ranges in the area?

Sparks

I doubt anyone in the paper or AGS checked or cared; that'd be up to the defence to point out in court at this point really
(And that that's the system says this whole mess is broken beyond belief)

Cass

Forget about ranges, gun clubs are far more prevalent. In my area in Laois there are 7 gun clubs all bordering each other. That means most people within a few miles have at least one gun.

I would not call that a proliferation of guns, just a case of people within a club using the tools of that club.

It really does shine a light on their real attitude of "any excuse to cut the number of guns".

Sparks

To be fair, with some ranges, many of the people shooting there live in other garda districts and travel to go shoot; whereas gun clubs are in many cases by their own rules strictly a local affair and you have to live in the area.

gunny123

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/highest-legal-gun-ownership-in-border-counties-339592.html

tac foley

You'll note that the above document refers to all firearms as 'weapons'. The stance of boards.ie and the moderators who run it is quite clear - we are collectively the legal owners of state-licensed 'firearms', not 'weapons' of any kind.

That distinction is a word that really matters where the legal ownership of firearms is concerned.

And drawing noxious comparisons between the crazy mass-murderer Anders Breivik and state-licensed firearms certificate holders will make no friends among the gun-owners here, that's for sure. Norway does not have the same conditions of ownership as we do, nor the ability, that he demonstrated, of ordering firearms of any kind by mail-order, let alone semi-auto centre-fire guns.

tac

Cass

tac foley wrote: »

The stance of boards.ie and the moderators who run it is quite clear - we are collectively the legal owners of state-licensed 'firearms', not 'weapons' of any kind.

The thing is Tac, we should all have that mentality. Well at least in Irish terms.

The laws surrounding our sport are firearm laws, the acts are called Firearm Acts. We (General public) are not as enlightened in Ireland as elsewhere in the world where the meaning or use of a word has no bearing on the people or the attitude of the people that govern it. As such we have to have a certain amount of PR (Political Correctness) when discussing it.

I swear at times it'd be less embarrassing to be labeled a drug dealer than a legal firearm owner. We talk in whispers to each other and stop when someone else comes along.

That distinction is a word that really matters where the legal ownership of firearms is concerned.

The only time i know of Weapon being used in law is the 1990 offensive weapons act. It's aptly named as it's about items used as weapons to inflict harm or death on others.

So even the legislative writers made the distinction. Wonder why others (politicans and some of the AGS) won't.

And drawing noxious comparisons between the crazy mass-murderer Anders Breivik and tate-licensed firearms certificate holders will make no friends among the gun-owners here, that's for sure. Norway does not have the same conditions of ownership as we do, nor the ability, that he demonstrated, of ordering firearms of any kind by mail-order, let alone semi-auto centre-fire guns.

tac

A bigger "joke" (if such a word can be used when referring to the tragedy) is that the recent, and ongoing, EU gun grabs proposals would not have had any effect on the firearm he used in that attack. Imagine quoting that tragedy as a reason for tighter firearm legislation and then not even addressing the actual firearm used, but target the "Evil Glocks, ARs, etc" that they just want gone at any cost.

The Super in question states too many firearms in his district. It doesn't rank as the highest and basing figures of what was reported it would not be in the top ten of counties with high firearm ownership rates.

The PULSE system is so out of touch with actual figures, according to recent reports, that even the figures it has cannot be relied upon. However with an actual firearm ownership rate of somewhere in the 3% of population mark, with (touchy subject) a murder rate with legally held firearms in the single digits for the last 5 years or so, and a sport with one the best safety records of all sports it's another baseless sentiment that serves only to squeeze the already burden shooting community.

Sparks

Thing is, that above link (apart from being from 2015) is as much a "document" as the Examiner is a "newspaper". It's one step shy of the Sun printed on a bigger sheet of paper.

tac foley

You'd think that with modern technology the way it is, that the printers of this bilge would provide a handy pre-made hole in the top corner of their product to take the string...

tac

Nekarsulm

Usual sensationalist reporting, where the factual content is a lot less important than the headline grabbing strapline.
As they note in paragraph six, "Although there are more than 12,800 licensed firearms recorded in Dublin, the capital has the lowest level of legal firearm ownership in Ireland with just 1% of the population having a firearms certificate."

The reporter seems unable or unwilling to ask even basic questions, such as "If Dublin has the lowest level of legal gun ownership in the State, could it be that all the gang and criminal related murders are not remotely related to law abiding gun owners"?

tac foley

Nekarsulm wrote: »

The reporter seems unable or unwilling to ask even basic questions, such as "If Dublin has the lowest level of legal gun ownership in the State, could it be that all the gang and criminal related murders are not remotely related to law abiding gun owners"?

Sir, the problem with your premise is that apart from making sense, it is also 100% true.

'Truth' and 'sense' are two words that are demonstrably absent from the Newspaper reporters' 101.

Just about globally.

tac

Cass

Sparks wrote: »

Thing is, that above link (apart from being from 2015) is as much a "document" as the Examiner is a "newspaper". It's one step shy of the Sun printed on a bigger sheet of paper.

Just to clarify i was referring to reports from the Garda Inspectorate. I wouldn't use a paper or anything printed in them to hold chips.

gunny123

All Irish and British newspapers are completely anti-firearm. I do not honestly recall a positive article about firearms or shooting, apart maybe a very rare article on olympic shooting or something like that. Being anti-gun is one of the tenets of trendy-lefty liberal media types. We are never going to get a fair crack of the whip from them because it contradicts the "all guns are bad, all hunters are bambi slayers" line.

Grizzly 45

Not just Irish and Brit media.It's the entire Western media.Go anywhere it is the same bilge in any langauge."Guns are baaad,baaan them"Fortunately the interweb is now becoming a more diverse source of alternative news[although there is enough manure on there as well],so that at least one can be reasonably informed on world matters if one so chooses.and not suffer from the "Good evening,here are the approved opinions we want you to have hour."programme on the family stupidifier in the living room corner.