2700s return

GM228

I think the 2700s need a new thread now having previously spoke about the current status of the rumoured 2700 return recently.

I'm told fron a reliable source that 20 2700s will indeed be returning to service in 2017 following board approval after a costings exercise, but apparently they won't simply be receiving the minimum work required, they are to be overhauled and receive electrical modifications.

Apparently a tender will be issued soon for their overhaul with first set due on test in Q2 2017.

Watch this space.

Jamie2k9

GM228 wrote: »

I think the 2700s need a new thread now having previously spoke about the current status of the rumoured 2700 return recently.

I'm told fron a reliable source that 20 sets will indeed be returning to service in 2017 following board approval after a costings exercise, but apparently they won't simply be receiving the minimum work required, they are to be overhauled and receive electrical modifications.

Apparently a tender will be issued soon for their overhaul with first set due on test in Q2 2017.

Watch this space.

Such an overhaul is the most sensible. Wonder will they try and have a setup where they are like the 2600, 2800 or 2900?

Cravens

So what's the plan? These refurbs heading off Limerick?

GM228

Cravens wrote: »

So what's the plan? These refurbs heading off Limerick?

Rumour is they will be based at Drogheda to supplement the commuter fleet, to enable better ICR utilisation by removing ICRs from certain commuter work, enabling full ICR operation on the Rosslare line and increase some train lenghts accross the Network.

Musketeer4

Oh, this is good news. I had figured they were destined to eternally operate the Inchicore sound barrier.

How many 2700 railcars are there? I assume if they are bringing only a portion back on line it will involve selection of the best and a lot of cannibalisation of other units for parts in order to control costs.
I even though the fleet would already have been cannibalised since the engines are the same as in the 2600 and 2800s. Will the cannibalised remainder be doomed to the cutters torch? Would the ITG have any interest in a few?

end of the road

GM228 wrote: »

Rumour is they will be based at Drogheda to supplement the commuter fleet, to enable better ICR utilisation by removing ICRs from certain commuter work, enabling full ICR operation on the Rosslare line and increase some train lenghts accross the Network.

meh, i will believe that when i see it!!
full ICR operation on the rosslare line providing the basic standard of comfort the users of this line actually pay for would be a huge shock indeed. we were supposed to get it years ago.

Musketeer4 wrote: »

Oh, this is good news. I had figured they were destined to eternally operate the Inchicore sound barrier.

ah well they have a number of modern locomotives and other stuff to do that.

savagethegoat

they don't have any modern locomotives, newest over 20 years old

Musketeer4

That's relatively new in locomotive money.

hurricanemk1c

20 2-car sets = 40 vehicles

Full fleet is 27 vehicles + 2 bicab vehicles

My information was 10 sets, that would go down to Limerick and replace the 2800s, which would then transfer north for the Phoenix Park Tunnel service, releasing up to 5 ICR sets in the morning/evening peaks.

20 years old is mid-life there abouts in locomotive terms. Although the engine technology (barring the EM2000) is about 50 years old in the 201 fleet (soon to be changed)

Musketeer4

Whats the EM 2000?

Are the 201s going to be re-engined?

GM228

hurricanemk1c wrote: »

20 2-car sets = 40 vehicles

Full fleet is 27 vehicles + 2 bicab vehicles

My information was 10 sets, that would go down to Limerick and replace the 2800s, which would then transfer north for the Phoenix Park Tunnel service, releasing up to 5 ICR sets in the morning/evening peaks.

20 years old is mid-life there abouts in locomotive terms. Although the engine technology (barring the EM2000) is about 50 years old in the 201 fleet (soon to be changed)

10 sets is correct, PPT services will be ICRs, 14 MkIVs (2 sets) are being reintroduced to release the ICRs for this.

I'm told the 2800s will stay in Limerick as they are regarded as a common fleet with the 2600s which makes perfect sense.

GM228

Musketeer4 wrote: »

Whats the EM 2000?

The computer system on the 201s

Musketeer4 wrote: »

Are the 201s going to be re-engined?

Yes, project has recently been approved.

hurricanemk1c

The tender is on e-Tenders and closed 22/04/2016 @ 1200

EM2000 is the loco management computer, monitoring performance and logging faults

The only times I remember (more than willing to be corrected though) 26s and 28s interworking from current depots was the swap over for leaf fall season as 2600s didn't have sanders (now fitted). Apart from that 2600s only go to Limerick for exams.

Musketeer4

What type of engine will be fitted? Who was awarded the contract?

Does this mean an end to ying ying ying ying?:(:(

hurricanemk1c

Musketeer4 wrote: »

What type of engine will be fitted? Who was awarded the contract?

Does this mean an end to ying ying ying ying?:(:(

Tender hasn't been awarded yet so we don't know. Multiple options including multi-engines, and whispers of both MTU and Caterpillar

GM228

hurricanemk1c wrote: »

The only times I remember (more than willing to be corrected though) 26s and 28s interworking from current depots was the swap over for leaf fall season as 2600s didn't have sanders (now fitted). Apart from that 2600s only go to Limerick for exams.

2800s can often be found working the Cork diagrams when 2600s are undergoing maintenance.

From a maintenance/parts storage point of view more so than an operational point of view it makes more sense to keep the 2600/2800 maintenance together in Limerick and the 2700s in Drogheda.

hurricanemk1c

Equally how do the 2700s fit in at Drogehda, with no common parts at all with the 29000 fleet? Any heavy work goes to Inchicore anyway.

I understand what you are saying about spares allocation, but I believe 2800s are preferred for PPT due to faster acceleration required around there

Cravens

The only reason besides convenience of not having to train maintenance crews at Limerick on a different type again that I could have thought of was that with 10 sets of 2700s being brought back, that'd still be two more sets than the 2800 fleet ever had built. Hence it could be a less strained fleet than the 2800s in Dublin.

I don't know about the acceleration figures, how much time savings would we be talking about here?

GM228

hurricanemk1c wrote: »

Equally how do the 2700s fit in at Drogehda, with no common parts at all with the 29000 fleet? Any heavy work goes to Inchicore anyway.

I understand what you are saying about spares allocation, but I believe 2800s are preferred for PPT due to faster acceleration required around there

ICRs are to be used on the PPT services, there are no plans at present to use anything else.

Most heavy work on the DMUs is actually carried out at Limerick and Drogheda bar the most heaviest work such as collision damage and structural repairs.

Limerick based sets usually only visit Inchicore for wheel turning (wheel turning also happens at Portlaoisr) and major electrical work.

To base the 2700s in Limerick will require the spare parts being in Limerick with the 2600/2800 spres being split between Limerick and Drogheda as most are common parts. Half the 2600/2800 parts don't need to move if they stay where the are, the 2700 parts (which are mostly in storage in Inchicore) need to be moved either way.

GM228

Cravens wrote: »

The only reason besides convenience of not having to train maintenance crews at Limerick on a different type again that I could have thought of was that with 10 sets of 2700s being brought back, that'd still be two more sets than the 2800 fleet ever had built.

There are 10 sets of 2700s returning and 10 sets of 2800s, not 8 sets of 2800s.

Cravens

GM228 wrote: »

There are 10 sets of 2700s returning and 10 sets of 2800s, not 8 sets of 2800s.

Ah, I fell victim to inconsistent info on the infallible wikipedia. In one place it says 8 units and the other it says 10 units.

Misinformation aside, I suppose it'd be sensible enough for whatever stock returns to the Dublin area to have their cab-end gangways restored?

GM228

Cravens wrote: »

Ah, I fell victim to inconsistent info on the infallible wikipedia. In one place it says 8 units and the other it says 10 units.

Misinformation aside, I suppose it'd be sensible enough for whatever stock returns to the Dublin area to have their cab-end gangways restored?

Gangways won't be restored. There's no need.

end of the road

GM228 wrote: »

Gangways won't be restored. There's no need.

i have to disagree. they allow movement between sets. more efficient to have them then to not. but whatever IE feels is best.

XPS_Zero

Excuse my ignorance. What's the big difference between these and the normal commuter setts ?

Jamie2k9

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance. What's the big difference between these and the normal commuter setts ?

The set up is different i.e. engines/parts and so on.

end of the road

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance. What's the big difference between these and the normal commuter setts ?

they are 2 car sets, so allow greater flexibility in terms of sets. you can have 2 4 6 or (all be it a rare occurrence) 8 car sets. engines and other equipment will be different i should think. they all have the same cummins generators though i believe.

IE 222

Five 4 car sets would run docklands services in the morning. Split a set off peak to run the shuttle with a 2 car set.

Evening only needs 4 sets to cover services. Two 6 car sets and two 4 car for evening services or swap the two 6 cars onto maynooth for extra capacity and put two 2900s onto docklands evening.

Is there any hope of the 2750s making a come back or are they first to be cannibalise

Thrashssacre

So if the whole point of bringing them back into service is too free up ircs which are working commuter services shouldent 20 units leave them with 27000s and some ircs spare? Will these be used to lenghten existing services or will a timetable increase be on the cards for some routes?

end of the road

Thrashssacre wrote: »

So if the whole point of bringing them back into service is too free up ircs which are working commuter services shouldent 20 units leave them with 27000s and some ircs spare? Will these be used to lenghten existing services or will a timetable increase be on the cards for some routes?

god only knows with IE. if we are lucky they might go to operating all services on the couple of long distance lines which should have had that years ago like they were supposed to but didn't get them in full because "reasons"

GM228

Some more details on the 2700 return in the NTAs 2016 review which was recently published.

It shows 11 sets returning (and potentially destined for PPT services) instead of 10 and a later re-introduction (2018). Tender should be issued next month.

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/151116_2016_Rail_Review_Report_Complete_Online.pdf

4.1 Class 2700 DMU reintroduction 14 x 2 car DMU class 2700 fleet were withdrawn from service in 2012 as part of the fleet strategy project to optimise capacity and reduce costs. It is proposed to re-introduce this fleet into service on a phased basis during 2018/ 2019 and release ICR sets to other services. Each vehicle requires interior and exterior refurbishment, as well as modifications and heavy maintenance across a range of systems to bring them to a condition suitable for service. Initial estimates suggest the cost of the works will be in the region of €200,000-€300,000 per vehicle depending on the scope chosen.

The most expedient option would be for the work to be offered as a turnkey to a major contractor. In this scenario, it is envisaged that the procurement timeline for contract award and critical path material supply would take up to 12 months, followed by an additional 24 months for the refurbishment program

The re-introduction of the 14 x 2 Class 2700 DMU fleet, (11 sets for service and 3 retained for maintenance holdings) would assist in providing additional and a more suitable Commuter Rolling Stock to Phoenix Park services and would allow the reallocation of 4 ICR sets to other services.

Subject to IE Procurement process commencing in January 2017 and critical path material availability, the best possible timeline indicated by the market would be for delivery to take place in stages from Q2 2018 to Q2 2019, with entry into service from Q4 2018. These timeframes will be confirmed following tender process and contract award

P.S. The report also reveals IEs best kept secret, 41new centre ICR cars to create more 4 and 5 car ICRs subject to some legal issues to be confirmed!

Subject to contract award in Q1 2017, Mitsui have indicated delivery could take place in phases from Q1 2019 to Q3 2019, with entry into service from Q2 2019. These will be confirmed on contract award

end of the road

GM228 wrote: »

Some more details on the 2700 return in the NTAs 2016 review which was recently published.

It shows 11 sets returning (and potentially destined for PPT services) instead of 10 and a later re-introduction (2018). Tender should be issued next month.

i reccan the hybrid won't return and the 2 bubble cars. basically the normal sets will return. in relation to the hybrid what happened the other vehicles of their original sets? scrapped or were they simply spare single vehicles?

GM228 wrote: »

P.S. The report also reveals IEs best kept secret, 41new centre ICR cars to create more 4 and 5 car ICRs subject to some legal issues to be confirmed!

i had heard about this actually. it is welcome but in the great scheme of things what we actually need is more complete sets. or even better more appropriate stock for the heuston suburbans. no chance of those though.

GM228

end of the road wrote: »

in relation to the hybrid what happened the other vehicles of their original sets? scrapped or were they simply spare single vehicles?

The Hybrid was made of the maintenance spare 2600 and 2700, they never had a match and were swaped over with the running sets once or twice before becoming the Hybrid.

L1011

Was it not a the 2600 spare and half a crashed 2700?

Captain Chaos

L1011 wrote: »

Was it not a the 2600 spare and half a crashed 2700?

It was a 2600 spare and 2700 spare. But they were both ex crashed units as the planned spares were in use to replace them so when repaired they became the spares.

dowlingm

I wonder how much longer the 2600s can be expected to last.

end of the road

dowlingm wrote: »

I wonder how much longer the 2600s can be expected to last.

another 20 years i should think.

GM228

Captain Chaos wrote: »

L1011 wrote: »

Was it not a the 2600 spare and half a crashed 2700?

It was a 2600 spare and 2700 spare. But they were both ex crashed units as the planned spares were in use to replace them so when repaired they became the spares.

Only 2716 was damaged (sideswipe incident in 2000) and replaced by the then spare 2724 (which had already previously swaped with 2726). 2609 developed a major fault shortly after entry into service in 1994 and was swaped with the then spare 2613.

2609 and 2716 then remained out of service in store at Inchicore and unrepaired until 2005 when they were repaired and modified by Hunslet-Barclay in Kilmarnock to be the Hybrid set and re-entering service in July 2007.

dowlingm

end of the road wrote: »

another 20 years i should think.

Maybe that will turn out to be true. DMUs have the disadvantage of having to absorb engine vibration which unpowered stock doesn't. Don't know if the builders were quite as conservative as Budd with their virtually indestructible RDC stainless steel frames.

tabbey

end of the road wrote: »

another 20 years i should think.

They were solidly built and should last another 20 years assuming proper maintenance.
They are ideal for the East Cork services, and passengers always appear happy, unlike their 2900 cousins.

The real problem is the bizarre attitude of Irish Rail management, prematurely withdrawing / or storing good rolling stock, then leaving it out exposed to the elements and vandals, until it is no longer serviceable.

tabbey

dowlingm wrote: »

Maybe that will turn out to be true. DMUs have the disadvantage of having to absorb engine vibration which unpowered stock doesn't. Don't know if the builders were quite as conservative as Budd with their virtually indestructible RDC stainless steel frames.

I'd love a fleet of Budd RDCs

end of the road

dowlingm wrote: »

Maybe that will turn out to be true. DMUs have the disadvantage of having to absorb engine vibration which unpowered stock doesn't. Don't know if the builders were quite as conservative as Budd with their virtually indestructible RDC stainless steel frames.

oh i'd doubt it. it's unbelieveable how well built the RDC railcars were. i don't think anything built later can ever compete tbh.

Losty Dublin

tabbey wrote: »

They were solidly built and should last another 20 years assuming proper maintenance.
They are ideal for the East Cork services, and passengers always appear happy, unlike their 2900 cousins.

The real problem is the bizarre attitude of Irish Rail management, prematurely withdrawing / or storing good rolling stock, then leaving it out exposed to the elements and vandals, until it is no longer serviceable.

2600 were intended to have a working life of between 15 and 20 years. They are now into their 23rd year and with no sign of slowing down.

Cravens

Does anyone know if the 2700's are out testing now? Only I am currently in Hansfield and I heard a horn that sounded suspiciously like a 2700's off in the distance. Certainly didn't sound like a 29k or a 22k or any loco. It'd kinda tie in with the timetable IE had for the reintroduction of the class from February.

L1011

A 4 car 2700 would be a huge improvement over the 3 car 22000s on peak services there. Utterly unsuitable for standing passengers

end of the road

L1011 wrote: »

A 4 car 2700 would be a huge improvement over the 3 car 22000s on peak services there. Utterly unsuitable for standing passengers

absolutely agree and this is a rather common topic on here. mind you i wouldn't hold your breath on IE changing the way it uses it's stock though.

GM228

Cravens wrote: »

Does anyone know if the 2700's are out testing now? Only I am currently in Hansfield and I heard a horn that sounded suspiciously like a 2700's off in the distance. Certainly didn't sound like a 29k or a 22k or any loco. It'd kinda tie in with the timetable IE had for the reintroduction of the class from February.

No the tender hasn't even issued yet (was due out last month).

There is no plan to reintroduce them from February (that was the original speculation until full overhaul got the green light), it is expected first set would be ready for trials around February 2018 though.

GM228

Following several delays it looks likely the tender will issue shortly once board approval of the actual tender specification is completed.

Estimated cost of the project is now at approximately €360,000 per vehicle, significantly higher than the original estimated "€200,000-€300,000" per vehicle as per the NTA. €8m is to be set aside for the project.

end of the road

GM228 wrote: »

Following several delays it looks likely the tender will issue shortly once board approval of the actual tender specification is completed.

Estimated cost of the project is now at approximately €360,000 per vehicle, significantly higher than the original estimated "€200,000-€300,000" per vehicle as per the NTA. €8m is to be set aside for the project.

how many would that give us? about 9 10 sets? they really need to get them all back as 10 2 car sets will only eat a small bit into the capacity issue. but i presume parts are now an issue so some will be needed for christmas trees? better then nothing and welcome news but i fear it won't be enough.

XPS_Zero

GM228 wrote: »

Following several delays it looks likely the tender will issue shortly once board approval of the actual tender specification is completed.

Estimated cost of the project is now at approximately €360,000 per vehicle, significantly higher than the original estimated "€200,000-€300,000" per vehicle as per the NTA. €8m is to be set aside for the project.

How does this compare to buying new ones? Cost wise? or second hand ones from UK companies or French ones or something?

end of the road

XPS_Zero wrote: »

How does this compare to buying new ones? Cost wise? or second hand ones from UK companies or French ones or something?

refurbishing these would definitely be a lot more cost effective then buying second hand ones from elsewhere. buying second hand units from elsewhere would have both refurbishing and regauging costs whereas the 2700s just have the cost of refurbishment. there is also the training on an unfamiliar type with something from elsewhere rather then a refresher course for if even that on an all ready familiar type in the 2700s.

while we do need new vehicles anyway, i reccan refurbishing the 2700s would be more cost effective then buying a lot more extra new vehicles as a good refurbishment should see them through the next 20-30 years meaning less new vehicles required. i do believe all units need to be done though and hopefully in time that will happen if the first round are successful.

Losty Dublin

XPS_Zero wrote: »

How does this compare to buying new ones? Cost wise? or second hand ones from UK companies or French ones or something?

A new vehicle of this type would cost around €1.5 million+ a vehicle. Add in the time to tender, build, deliver, commission and staff training and you are looking at 3-4 years. While the cost sounds high, you are talking about a working life of millions and millions of miles and 20+ years a vehicle.