2700s return

IE 222

How sets does Cork require for daily operations. Would there any scope in swapping 2600 sets for 5 3ICR sets rotating with Dublin and Tralee services.

Jamie2k9

IE 222 wrote: »

How sets does Cork require for daily operations. Would there any scope in swapping 2600 sets for 5 3ICR sets rotating with Dublin and Tralee services.

No ICRs not suitable for Cork commuter because they are limited to 3 car (?), to big in terms of capacity and 3 car sets are limited and in high demand especially because all routes can't take 7 car formations.

They need 5-6 2600 from a quick look at a timetable.

goingnowhere

Peak need

2*2 for Cobh
2*2 for Midleton
4*2 for Tralee

4+4+8=12
Fleet = 16

So 2 spare and 2 under heavy maintenance

Jamie2k9

goingnowhere wrote: »

Peak need

2*2 for Cobh
2*2 for Midleton
4*2 for Tralee

4+4+8=12
Fleet = 16

So 2 spare and 2 under heavy maintenance

8 sets of 2600 (?)

Isn't the 2600 only on Tralee weekends, not weekdays mainly?

The_Wanderer

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

8 sets of 2600 (?)

Isn't the 2600 only on Tralee weekends, not weekdays mainly?

2600 to Tralee is only booked Saturday, Sunday and Monday morning (0445 ex Tralee).

Sat
0625 CK -TL
2055 CK - TL

Sun
0710 TL - CK
1435 CK - TL (4pce)
1845 CK - TL
1710 TL - CK (4pce)
2110 TL - MW Ety.

Mon
0445 TL - CK

Peak requirement is for 5 sets in service.

2 for Cobh.
2 for Midleton.
1 for Mallow.

3 sets for maintenance
1 x B Exam Limerick
1 X Heavy Mtce Limerick or wheel turning at Inchicore.
1 x standby Cork or wheel turning at Inchicore.

Ireland trains

Im not sure but It looks like irish rail might actually have started to refurbish the trains as on their tweets it used to say 'sorry we are utilising all fleet capacity at peak times and we hope to add more in the future' but now they are saying 2019

Colonel Claptrap

Seen this on Facebook today...

2 Page article in this months Modern Railways magazine entitled “Electrification in Ireland’s 10 year Rail plans”. Magazine out today. Some salient points as quoted by David Franks:

300 new vehicles by 2022- 100 for extra capacity and 200 to replace the oldest DART vehicles

Option under investigation of using 8 of the 10 stored Class 8200 vehicles as a crowd buster set with loco haulage. Government has also asked what stock maybe available from overseas.

28 stored railcars to be reintroduced from 2019/2020 following refurbishment (Class 2700), Class 2750 and car 2716 with Class 2600 vehicle 2609 as a 2 car set

Retractioning of remaining active 201 locos now at procurement exercise

Lots of other bits & pieces. All pretty positive

Ireland trains

Great news about all that stuff.
I have a subscription but it won't arrive till next week.
The 200 trains to replace the DART coaches but there is 148 DART coaches and that includes the newer DARTs. Are you sure its not the 100 trains to replace the DARTs because otherwise 100 additional capacity coaches is 25 4 car trains which won't be enough to operate all the future DART services

end of the road

the 8100s would be the only ones replaced in the near future as they are coming upon 40 years old in the next 5 years or so. even then, i should think that will depend on their condition, cost to maintain and availability of parts. if all 3 are good then they may stay longer. it's very unlikely the 8500 class will be replaced they are still very young and will be when any new stock would arrive.
25 4 car trains should be fine to replace the 8100s and run further dart services depending on how much is electrified if anything at all.

Jamie2k9

Option under investigation of using 8 of the 10 stored Class 8200 vehicles as a crowd buster set with loco haulage. Government has also asked what stock maybe available from overseas.

Oversea's won't happen nor will a loco hauling 8200. If you want to do anything with the 8200 then strip them down and convert to DMU,

IE 222

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Oversea's won't happen nor will a loco hauling 8200. If you want to do anything with the 8200 then strip them down and convert to DMU,

Would a 2700 either end of an 8200 have enough power and breaking to run with a striped down lighter unit in between.

I know 2900s can hual a Dart. Not sure about the older DMUs

flyingsnail

IE 222 wrote: »

Would a 2700 either end of an 8200 have enough power and breaking to run with a striped down lighter unit in between.

I know 2900s can hual a Dart. Not sure about the older DMUs

They could definitely pull them, the problem would be in having enough acceleration and speed while doing so to keep to timetables.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

IE 222

flyingsnail wrote: »

They could definitely pull them, the problem would be in having enough acceleration and speed while doing so to keep to timetables.

Thats what I thought. I guess it would be the same for the 26 & 28 class.

L1011

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

1500v DC locos are not really off the shelf products these days so the cost would be even higher than the usual 1600mm premium

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Ireland trains

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

Option under investigation of using 8 of the 10 stored Class 8200 vehicles as a crowd buster set with loco haulage.

It would not be able to go south of gcd /pearse (I think) because of the speed restrictions for loco hauled trains. It would be kind of interesting to see it and would it cost Irish rail any money

goingnowhere

Its right up there with the lets double head Dublin Cork trains

The only thing you could do would be to stick a 2700 set either side of a pair to give a 6 coach set but thats a lot of hassle

Simpler just get them to work again, parts are no problem and its not like Alstom haven't got engineers in Dublin who work on the ONIX drive system, after all the Luas is electrically very similar to the Alstom DARTs

andrewfaulk

Fred Swanson wrote: »

Does anyone know why 1500V DC was chosen in the first place?

Probably made sense in the late 70s when the Dart was being planned as just a small network to serve between Howth and Bray..

Always thought the change to AC should be made before the start expanding outwards.. Costs would be high up front but in terms of savings and performance it would be worthwhile..
If a conversion to AC was made the 8200s could be tweaked to operate as AC stock

end of the road

Ireland trains wrote: »

It would not be able to go south of gcd /pearse (I think) because of the speed restrictions for loco hauled trains.

it likely will be able to, the speed restrictions would likely not prohibit it seeing as locomotive hauled trains go south including maintenence and during the summer season, the belmond train. it may not be timetabled to do so in practice however.

Ireland trains wrote: »

It would be kind of interesting to see it and would it cost Irish rail any money

it will cost irish rail money as the sets would have to be refurbished. they have been lying outdoors for what, 10 years now?

L1011

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It was the norm for heavy rail metro operations at the time.

tabbey

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

1500V dc was the norm for main line electrification until after WW2. Even the TransPennine electrification in England 1954 was 1500V dc, although this was planned before the war. Large parts of France south of Paris was and remains 1500V. Netherlands is also 1500V, while Belgium and Italy is little more at 3000Vdc.

The trend to 25kV ac has occurred because a smaller lighter copper wire can be used, and transformer sub-stations can be fewer, covering a longer distance.

This however comes at a price, the higher the voltage, the greater clearance between wires and bridges is needed. For open country long distance electrification, this is not a problem. But in a densely populated area with lots of bridges, it is a considerable additional cost. To change to high tension electric would require raising bridges and for DART especially substantial blasting of granite between DunLaoghaire and Sandycove.

When DART was planned in the late 1970s, there was no intention to extend electric wires to Belfast never mind any other mainline. To have gone for the expensive option at that time would not have been countenanced.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

GM228

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Oversea's won't happen nor will a loco hauling 8200

This is the next possible project, it is still just an idea at the moment, but serious consideration is been given to it, it was actually mooted long ago before the 2700 project got underway.

GM228

IE 222 wrote: »

Would a 2700 either end of an 8200 have enough power and breaking to run with a striped down lighter unit in between.

I know 2900s can hual a Dart. Not sure about the older DMUs

This was considered but the idea dropped pretty quickly as issues regarding wheel slip/slide, keeping air pressure, keeping to time and several other issues were identified.

GM228

Ireland trains wrote: »

It would not be able to go south of gcd /pearse (I think) because of the speed restrictions for loco hauled trains. It would be kind of interesting to see it and would it cost Irish rail any money

This would not be an issue, the limit of 20MPH is only between Pearse and Sandymount and would not have any detrimental effect in running of a loco hauled train.

Jamie2k9

GM228 wrote: »

This is the next possible project, it is still just an idea at the moment, but serious consideration is been given to it, it was actually mooted long ago before the 2700 project got underway.

Perhaps but I still can't see it. Yes it could in theory work for Rosslare or Sligo but surly not commuter.

Will 225 make it into traffic over the summer, suspect 230 will take a lot longer.

goingnowhere

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It goes back to the DRRTS study of 1973 which proposed an extensive DART network around the city including underground sections

25kV was too heavy
750DC is to fragile in snow and exposed to the sea
1500V requires less clearance than 25kV and no transformer to lug around.

Bear in mind a 25kV train is really a DC train with a transformer so dual voltage is trivial to support since we don't use tap changers anymore and go with VVVF AC drives (which didn't exist in 1973)

GM228

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Perhaps but I still can't see it. Yes it could in theory work for Rosslare or Sligo but surly not commuter.

Will 225 make it into traffic over the summer, suspect 230 will take a lot longer.

225 is more or less ready and painted quite some time now (since last year), it just needs some minor work and tweaks so yes it should be, 230 is a different story....

IE 222

GM228 wrote: »

This is the next possible project, it is still just an idea at the moment, but serious consideration is been given to it, it was actually mooted long ago before the 2700 project got underway.

Would the plan be to have them as a push/pull set or keep them dead with loco run arounds.

Push/pull could work Dublin commuter but hualed wouldn't work to well. Maybe they could work Longford services as hauled stock.

GM228

IE 222 wrote: »

Would the plan be to have them as a push/pull set or keep them dead with loco run arounds.

Push/pull could work Dublin commuter but hualed wouldn't work to well. Maybe they could work Longford services as hauled stock.

Push-Pull if rumours are to be believed.

kc56

goingnowhere wrote: »

It goes back to the DRRTS study of 1973 which proposed an extensive DART network around the city including underground sections

25kV was too heavy
750DC is to fragile in snow and exposed to the sea
1500V requires less clearance than 25kV and no transformer to lug around.

Bear in mind a 25kV train is really a DC train with a transformer so dual voltage is trivial to support since we don't use tap changers anymore and go with VVVF AC drives (which didn't exist in 1973)

Wasn't there also an issue with regenerative braking that only worked with DC back then?

Jamie2k9

GM228 wrote: »

Push-Pull if rumours are to be believed.

Well this would make the plan more plausible, lot of work all the same getting something as big off the ground.

Clearly getting rid of the Mark III PP sets is going to prove costly if this idea happens!

IE 222

GM228 wrote: »

Push-Pull if rumours are to be believed.

That would be the best and probably the cheapest but yet expensive option.

If they go for push/pull I wonder will they convert the remaining set as 2 driving trialers and look overseas, as mentioned, to see if any secondhand stock can be found to add to them. This would also tie in with suggestions of them looking to bring back some of the stored 201s.

Is the 3 carriage push/pull set that was shipped to Ennis still intact. Shouldn't be to difficult to pick another up 2 or 3 mark111 if they could buy that back.

Jamie2k9

IE 222 wrote: »

That would be the best and probably the cheapest but yet expensive option.

If they go for push/pull I wonder will they convert the remaining set as 2 driving trialers and look overseas, as mentioned, to see if any secondhand stock can be found to add to them. This would also tie in with suggestions of them looking to bring back some of the stored 201s.

Is the 3 carriage push/pull set that was shipped to Ennis still intact. Shouldn't be to difficult to pick another up 2 or 3 mark111 if they could buy that back.

Yes but probally a lot more damage since they were send down to Clare, they have 6402 (Cafe/Bar and accessible WC), 6105 DVT and non push/pull coach 7146.

Probably possible for IE to get them back if they really wanted to. I believe IE have kept a Mark III coach for future weed spray/train recording duty and BGH have an extra one which they could prehaps loan back to IE.

GM228

A lot of what is in Modern Railways is very credible, however where the idea of looking at overseas stock and/or buying other stock has come from is a mystery to me.

Jamie2k9

Also think ITG have a Mark IIIA which would leave potentially 6 coaches.

GM228

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Also think ITG have a Mark IIIA which would leave potentially 6 coaches.

The ITG don't have a MkIIIA, however the RPSI have a MkIII.

L1011

If we're reduced to borrowing stock off heritage groups, there are more mk2s around than mk3s.

IE 222

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Yes but probally a lot more damage since they were send down to Clare, they have 6402 (Cafe/Bar and accessible WC), 6105 DVT and non push/pull coach 7146.

Probably possible for IE to get them back if they really wanted to. I believe IE have kept a Mark III coach for future weed spray/train recording duty and BGH have an extra one which they could prehaps loan back to IE.

Was it not an EGV they kept for maintenance dept.

TheBoyConor

A number of ICR sets will be freed up with the demise of the LJ-Waterford and Ballybrofey-Limerick lines.

All this talk of rehabilitating Mk3s is a bit walter mitty.

end of the road

TheBoyConor wrote: »

A number of ICR sets will be freed up with the demise of the LJ-Waterford and Ballybrofey-Limerick lines.

ballybroaphy is 28 operated and lj waterford is mostly 2800 as wel with the odd ICR doing a run after coming off a dublin service. so nothing in terms of ICRS freed up with them gone.

TheBoyConor

I see. Well in that case the extra 2800s would surely plug a stock gap in the services.

I can't see the logic of bring back loco hauled services. Its really a retrograde step backwards in my opinion. Locos destroy the PW aswell. With relatively lightweight railcars the PW will last way longer before it is worn out.

Shn99

All LJ-Waterford are ICRs....

tabbey

Shn99 wrote: »

All LJ-Waterford are ICRs....

It is still only one set, for a few hours in the morning and evening.

end of the road

TheBoyConor wrote: »

I see. Well in that case the extra 2800s would surely plug a stock gap in the services.

it would but it would be a small one really. it still won't get us out of having to procure extra stock.

TheBoyConor wrote: »

I can't see the logic of bring back loco hauled services. Its really a retrograde step backwards in my opinion. Locos destroy the PW aswell. With relatively lightweight railcars the PW will last way longer before it is worn out.

i suppose the logic would be that loco hauled carriges may be quicker to procure and build and they can work with existing locomotives. it shouldn't be a retrograde step backwards as pushpull would be the order of the day. in saying that i can't see any extension of loco haulage from what currently exists.

goingnowhere

Nenagh line needs 2 sets of 2800 to operate

Waterford needs either 2 sets of 2800 or 1 2800 and 1 ICR

So peak AM you are looking at being 4 2800 sets better off, so you get swap out the current 7 car ICR used at peak in Dublin for a proper commuter train and use those 7 cars somewhere elsewhere so

A train which is 3 car goes to 4 and one which is 4 can be moved to 6

Net result is 1000+ more capacity at peak hour

Jamie2k9

Not strictly correct, if the ICR wasn't operating Waterford/Limerick J services it would be parked up doing nothing unless they were to add an extra return to Dublin to make it available outside peak hours...

Ireland trains

Irish rail leave a lot of time for the turnaround of their trains so I'd say they could squeeze in some more services by reducing the turnaround time or add in an extra service of the turnaround time is that big. Let's say for example Heuston to Portlaiose takes 1h 7 min so you need 3 trains but you would be able to turn the train around quickly at Portlaiose and when it gets back to Heuston you have about 40 min which in that time you could run a service to Hazelhatch and back.
Also irish rail have changed the 07:10 Newbridge to Grand canal dock to a 5 car ICR so does anyone know if some peak time service has been reduced to a 4 car ICR.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.