2700s return

Jamie2k9

The_Wanderer wrote: »

Instructions concerning the specific operation of 2700's have been removed from the General Appendix. Nothing to stop them being put back in at a future date if the need ever arose.

I see, still looks like a done deal.

The instructions were fine to be left for 6 years, the sudden removal makes no sense.

The need arises now, in future they will have new trains and probably clear the way for 8100 and 2900 removal from the appendix.

Captain Chaos

The 2700s more than likely won't return. Some of the sets are in a very bad way, external mould and nature is taking over inside some cabs. The sets that got painted into the silver ICR livery are not too bad but the sets that are in the old Commuter livery are really starting to deteriorate.

They are the same as the first block of 10 201s, 8200 DART units and the 5x 141s left in Inchicore, they are still on the books and no one is willing to write them off for whatever reason.

Thrashssacre

With all the hst withdrawals and the ones being kept around being halfed in length surely irish rail could pick up a few mark 3 sets and regauge them easy enough, surely there’s a few spare 201/071s knocking around?

Even just 2/3 sets to take the pressure off the 29000 and maybe keep them off intercity work.

end of the road

Thrashssacre wrote: »

With all the hst withdrawals and the ones being kept around being halfed in length surely irish rail could pick up a few mark 3 sets and regauge them easy enough, surely there’s a few spare 201/071s knocking around?

Even just 2/3 sets to take the pressure off the 29000 and maybe keep them off intercity work.

unfortunately it's not as simple as regauge and hook up to a loco as hst mk3s receive power at a different current rate then normal mk3s so will only work with the class 43 power cars. this means as i understand it, serious and costly work to convert them to the power rate of loco hauled stock, and then any work to make them compatible with the 201s, which will need to use the head end power to provide power.
if they were to take some hsts, and i suspect it's very unlikely, then they would be better taking some power cars as well, as that would remove the issue of making them compatible with the 201s, and trying to convert power rates.

Thrashssacre

end of the road wrote: »

unfortunately it's not as simple as regauge and hook up to a loco as hst mk3s receive power at a different current rate then normal mk3s so will only work with the class 43 power cars. this means as i understand it, serious and costly work to convert them to the power rate of loco hauled stock, and then any work to make them compatible with the 201s, which will need to use the head end power to provide power.
if they were to take some hsts, and i suspect it's very unlikely, then they would be better taking some power cars as well, as that would remove the issue of making them compatible with the 201s, and trying to convert power rates.

Ah that’s a shame.... doubt getting the power cars would be as easy as the scots as well as transport for wales seem to be snapping many of them up. Would have been nice to give the 201/071 a bit more work and preserve their working life a bit longer while also allowing irish rail to provide additional service that many may have found to be superior to what they offer now.

dowlingm

I wonder if Porterbrook or one of the other lessors ever looked the 2700s over with a view to installing NIR gear and shopping them as a surge/capital maintenance fleet as major overhauls came due either side of the border (such as seems to be the case for 29Ks now). Might be a bit late now if the conditions are as reported above.

goingnowhere

Firstly this whole bad state claim, 2700 are aluminium bodies so cannot rust

Secondly Translink cannot lease stock it’s some weird rule

The power system used on the HST Mk3 is the CIE system. CIE system is 220/380 V 50 Hz, UK is 240/415 V 50 Hz

In both cases it is the 3 phase supply at the national standard, we use 220V in Ireland and moved to 230V to match EU, the UK uses 240V and didn't really bother to move to 230V. Its fantasy really to think about it really not happening.

dowlingm

goingnowhere wrote: »

Firstly this whole bad state claim, 2700 are aluminium bodies so cannot rust

Secondly Translink cannot lease stock it’s some weird rule

while aluminium bodies may not oxidize they can still degrade - VIA Rail abandoned the rebuild of their LRC coaches after an initial batch because the wear and tear was found to be so extensive.

Interesting re Translink - seems a bit limiting. Wonder what the rationale is.

Geuze

Captain Chaos wrote: »

The 2700s more than likely won't return. Some of the sets are in a very bad way, external mould and nature is taking over inside some cabs. The sets that got painted into the silver ICR livery are not too bad but the sets that are in the old Commuter livery are really starting to deteriorate.

They are the same as the first block of 10 201s, 8200 DART units and the 5x 141s left in Inchicore, they are still on the books and no one is willing to write them off for whatever reason.

I can't understand this.

This 2700 class was built in 1997-1998, so about 20 years old?

I thought trains can have a lifespan up to 40 years?

With a strong economy, more people travelling, climate change, modal shift, surely it's crazy to let 25 vehicles rot away in Inchicore?

How much would it cost to fix them up?

GM228

Geuze wrote: »

How much would it cost to fix them up?

In excess of €30M according to the only tender submission they received. The NTA will not pay for it.

Markcheese

GM228 wrote: »

In excess of €30M according to the only tender submission they received. The NTA will not pay for it.

Is that because you could end with aunreliable rebuilt train, 30 million (plus) bill and unspecified time frame? As opposed to a slot on the production line and at least some kind of comeback to the supplier..?

It does seem bonkers that they're effectively scrap metal.. Half way through their lifespan..

Geuze

GM228 wrote: »

In excess of €30M according to the only tender submission they received. The NTA will not pay for it.

That is in excess of 1m per vehicle.


Sure new DMUs aren't much more than that?

loyatemu

Geuze wrote: »

That is in excess of 1m per vehicle.


Sure new DMUs aren't much more than that?

presumably that's why the NTA won't pay it.

Geuze

loyatemu wrote: »

presumably that's why the NTA won't pay it.

OK.

How could they be in such bad shape?

Markcheese

Why did they get retired in the first place? (assume it was unreliability but why?),

end of the road

capacity cuts as part of cost cutting i believe. they were the least reliable of the suburban rattlers and could only be used as 2 car sets since the incident on the rosslare line where a unit decoupled while on a service.

Losty Dublin

Geuze wrote: »

I can't understand this.

This 2700 class was built in 1997-1998, so about 20 years old?

I thought trains can have a lifespan up to 40 years?

With a strong economy, more people travelling, climate change, modal shift, surely it's crazy to let 25 vehicles rot away in Inchicore?

How much would it cost to fix them up?

DMU's have a slightly shorter life span compared to hauled carriages, and a far shorter life than locomotives. This is mainly due to the additional stresses and systems on board a DMU that can go wrong when in service over locos and carriages.

When ordered the 2700's were expected to have an in life service of about 15-18 years, assuming they didn't receive a complete rebuild in service. The same life was expected from the 2600 and 2800 class, the former of which are 25 years into traffic now and with no sign of slowing down.

Drifter50

Geuze wrote: »

That is in excess of 1m per vehicle.


Sure new DMUs aren't much more than that?

You are correct, the 22K units average out at 1.2m per vehicle

Jem72

They cost significantly more than 1.2m per vehicle - around twice that at this point. From memory, the 22Ks were a little over 2 million a unit when they were originally bought. The new ones are costing almost 2.5 million - around 100 million for 41 units.

Still, over a million per unit represents very bad value for a refurb.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/tender-out-for-up-to-80-pre-owned-trains-to-meet-urgent-demand-1.3813067

goingnowhere

When you only got a single quote, what do you expect?

Markcheese

goingnowhere wrote: »

When you only got a single quote, what do you expect?

Well that depends, did you only ask 1 crowd to quote,?or Did only 1 crowd bother getting back to you with a quote, and did they end up knowing they were the only guys quoting...?
Not that if it matters if the lads with the purse strings reckon the quote is not value for money..
And if the million quid a unit had very little comeback because of being a refurb.. (the contracter blames the engine maker, the engine maker blames the transmission, who reckons the wiring wasn't appropriate, so back to the contractor and round again), that could be a very expensive box of lemons. twice.

Geuze

OK, thanks for all info.

Is there a market in second hand DMUs?

Could we buy, say 40-60 units, and have them within 3 months?

I realise they have to be re-bogied.


EDIT - I see IE is doing this, sorry.

tnegun

What did you see?

end of the road

Geuze wrote: »

OK, thanks for all info.

Is there a market in second hand DMUs?

Could we buy, say 40-60 units, and have them within 3 months?

I realise they have to be re-bogied.


EDIT - I see IE is doing this, sorry.

IE were looking at leasing units from the uk, however the costs and timeframe to get them into service didn't work in favour of it.
it is very unlikely you would be able to simply pick up second hand units and have them in service in 3 months. assuming they would fit our loading gauge and are available straight away, they would have to be checked out, modifications made, paperwork sorted out, get them to ireland, test them, train the drivers on them. i would say you would be looking at a year all in all tbh. maybe a bit less, but very much unlikely to be 3 months unfortunately.

Polar101

Losty Dublin wrote: »

When ordered the 2700's were expected to have an in life service of about 15-18 years, assuming they didn't receive a complete rebuild in service.

Hopefully the 29k trains had a longer expectancy when they were bought.

Jem72

Well, they need major refurbishment work soon since the floors are collapsing. This would have started already except that they can't afford to take anything out of service at the moment.

Given that Irish Rail are looking at making a huge new commuter order, it would be consistent with past behaviour for them to spend a fortune doing up the 29Ks and then parking them all up somewhere once they've got shiny new trains to play with.

DoctorPan

Jem72 wrote: »

Given that Irish Rail are looking at making a huge new commuter order, it would be consistent with past behaviour for them to spend a fortune doing up the 29Ks and then parking them all up somewhere once they've got shiny new trains to play with.

29ks are to be casscaded down to Cork Suburbans once the full new DART fleet are in operation. They'll be rattling about for many a year yet

Markcheese

You'd think that some train manufacturer/ maintenence company would be all over this...
An immediate refurb of the 2700s - followed by an ongoing refurb of the 29ks, and a new order to boot... Obviously it'd be more beneficial nationally to be done in Ireland but its not impossible to ship them anywhere...

Jamie2k9

DoctorPan wrote: »

29ks are to be casscaded down to Cork Suburbans once the full new DART fleet are in operation. They'll be rattling about for many a year yet

I would view this as a significant downgrade for Cork. There would be extra capacity but compared to 2600 the 2900 are poor.

They will require significant work plus the floor issues. I think if economic conditions stay positive IE will look to get rid in the mid 2020s.

DoctorPan

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I would view this as a significant downgrade for Cork. There would be extra capacity but compared to 2600 the 2900 are poor.

They will require significant work plus the floor issues. I think if economic conditions stay positive IE will look to get rid in the mid 2020s.

Highly unlikely as they are intended to get a mid life refurb like the Enterprise and ICRs, as well as other mechanical changes to ensure they'll last.

IE isn't going to get rid of them as they don't have the option of buying new diesel stock as they are significant people movers.

Jamie2k9

DoctorPan wrote: »

Highly unlikely as they are intended to get a mid life refurb like the Enterprise and ICRs, as well as other mechanical changes to ensure they'll last.

IE isn't going to get rid of them as they don't have the option of buying new diesel stock as they are significant people movers.

Have they costed this, I don't think the recent ICR/DD mid life refresh can be compared to what the 2900 require.