.223

fiestaman

Looking for some info on .223. With a very good moderator would there be much of a difference between it and a silenced .17hmr noise wise? Regarding ammo what is the cheapest stuff you could use for hunting ie rabbit grey crows odd fox and what would the price roughly be or would it boil down to the usual that the gun would prefer one type and you have to stick with that regarding the price. I see different guns been advertised with different twist barrels, is there a twist to go for?

Cass

fiestaman wrote: »

Looking for some info on .223. With a very good moderator would there be much of a difference between it and a silenced suppressed .17hmr noise wise?

Fixed that for ya.

There is a difference, but it's not much. Unfortunately it depends on the suppressor used. Most HMRs use a rimfire suitable mod which works fine, but if you use a larger mod it'll have a bit more effect. For example i used a T4 on one of my HMRs.

Now compare them to the 223. I use the same T4 on the 223 and the difference between the heard report compared to the HMR is slightly louder but not by much. The 223 with a suppressor is noticeably quieter. More of a "pfssssst".

Regarding ammo what is the cheapest stuff you could use for hunting ie rabbit grey crows odd fox and what would the price roughly be or would it boil down to the usual that the gun would prefer one type and you have to stick with that regarding the price.

Ammo for the 223 goes from as little as €7.50 a box up to €31 a box. Some rifles will prefer certain bullets/rounds so you need to consider this and the actual round.

The cheap €7.50 stuff is not very accurate at anything from 100 yards out. Also it's FMJ so not ideally suited to hunting. The most expensive stuff would be Hornady V-Max. Price ranges from €26 to €31 depending on where you buy. It's lethal on game and will knock out to distances with consistent and good accuracy.

Stuff in the "middle" would include American Eagle, Sako, Fiocchi, Remington, Steel match, etc. Now some of it comes in 50 rounds per box, but per bullet it's in the middle price range. Some of this is FMJ so again not suitable. Others are target rounds which usually are not suited to hunting, but if a hollow point would do.

The finally the cheap stuff including TulAmmo, Barnaul, Americaqn Eagle, Wolf, etc. This stuff can be steel cased, and is as cheap as they come. Accuracy is alright, but nothing to get excited about, but can be crap. However they can serve a purpose. I use TulAmmo for short range comps. Accuracy is perfect for the distances and considering the amount i shoot per comp (40+) i don't want to be using Hornady V-Max at €30 or so a box. So at €7 a box or cheaper if i buy in bulk it's perfect.

I tend to stick to ballistic tips. I prefer them for expansion, stopping dead after hitting the game, and finally for effectiveness. I hate runners so want to minimise this by using the appropriate ammo.

I see different guns been advertised with different twist barrels, is there a twist to go for?

Most will come with 1:12. A few will have 1:9 and then you have the occasional ones with 1:8, 1:7.5, etc.

The general rule of thumb is the higher the number of the twist rate, the lower the weight of the bullet. So 1:12 will use 40gr up to 53gr. 1:9 twist will use 55gr up to 69gr, and anything faster than 1:9 would only use 69gr +.

However some rifles seem to buck this trend. The CZ and Tikka can come in 1:12 and 1:9 depending on the model. However my CZ Kevlar was a 1:9 twist but shot pretty much anything i fed it from 40 gr all the way up to 75gr. Now it did shoot some rounds better than others, but none were overly poor.


The other thing about the 223 calibre is regardless of bullet there is not a huge amount of stuff to remember. What i mean about that is this.

I can zero my rifle for 100 yards with 55gr v-max. Now if i use a 55gr, 53gr, 50gr, 45gr, etc. whether it be v-max, Hornady, Fiocchi, American Eagle or whatever the 100 yard zero remains pretty much the same. IOW any difference is so small as to not cause a problem.

The only difference you'll notice is when you start to push the various rounds out the distances (200 yards plus). At this point the POI will change for the different rounds.


I like the 223. It's a versatile round, with so many options in terms of ammo, rifles, etc. Are you thinking of buying, changing up to, getting another or trading?

fiestaman

Thanks, I am considering moving up from a .17hmr but was wary of noise difference and ammo price increase. I'd only be hunting no target, maybe odd day shoot a few at paper to pass an hour. wouldn't mainly be after foxes but greys and mags would be no.1 & a few rabbits so don't know whether I can justify but if you go out for a fox at least you have the right tool. .17 is grand but the wind can play havoc and it nearly windy more days now than it is calm. Are the .223 ammo in boxes of 20 or 25

Cass

The 223 has the hmr beaten for wind bucking and distance. That is not a criticism of the hmr as you're not comparing like for like. It'd be like comparing the 22lr and hmr. They're both rimfire but the hmr (for hunting) beats the .22lr for distance, and killing power.

The HMR has good distance, cheaper ammo than the 223 and is perfect for the game you're after. The 223 would give you more distance, but cannot kill your game anymore than the hmr.

fiestaman wrote: »

Are the .223 ammo in boxes of 20 or 25

Mostly in 20s and some come in 50s like the Steel match and Fiocchi.

Snakezilla

I have both .17hmr and .223 - I didnt have the heart to part with the Hmr and Im glad I kept it.

The Hmr is my dedicated rabbit/winged vermin gun and the .223 is my dedicated fox and longer range paper punching gun. Its a Remington 700 with a 1:9 and the only ammo I found it doesnt like is Winchester.

You should really be 110% sure if you want to get rid of the Hmr. With he difficulty and long process of licensing in this country , theres nothing worse than getting rid of a gun and regretting it later down the road...I think we've all been there :P

yubabill1

I had a 17HMR from 2003 until about 10 years ago when I went for 223. Mostly shoot rabbits and an odd fox and I try to buy bulk ammo to keep the price down.

I've used the Tulammo a lot and I wouldn't give it reliable accuracy beyond 75 yds for rabbits (I mostly go for the heart, but I suppose you would hit them in the body reliably out to 150). it's FMJ and 62gr, so you need faster than 1:12 twist to stabilise it properly. You also need to be shooting fairly rural, as there's always the risk of ricochet with FMJ.

Other value ammo I've managed to get are Fiocchi 50gr HP and Hornady steel match (I cleared Sean out in Thurles that time - thanks for the heads-up, Cass).

I don't like to go much over 50c per round, but I do have some Hornady VMax and Federal PSP's for foxes.

For winged vermin, I go scattergun but an FMJ will kill crows etc. every time if you hit them across both shoulders where the wings fold, but I'm not advocating that - you would want to be very sure of your backstop - whereas the 17 HMR will do the biz more easily; you could vaporise them with a VMax, but at over 1.00 per trigger squeeze.....

I wouldn't go back to HMR, but I am always aware of shots that I have to pass up with the 223 that would be feasible with the HMR (around houses etc - not for noise, but on the very off-chance of some one-in-a-million mishap).

WRT twist rate - my Tikka 1:8 shoots anything I have found well, from 45gr up to 75gr. If you want to split hairs for target precision shooting, it does give better accuracy with certain loads (I won't go into it, because finding out is some of the best fun) but all I have tried are good enough for any rabbit shooting, except Tulammo, which I've peeled back to 75yds (most of my shots are 75 or less, but it's nice to have the knowledge that you can make a 200yd shot, so I often bring a few rounds of another brand along).

So, if you're mostly going for winged stuff or rabbits, you have to bear in mind that there will be shots that are not on with 223, especially with any ammo that is not frangible like VMax.

If you want to knock the odd fox sideways, the 223 is good medicine, though. It's a jack of all trades and master of none.

Cass

yubabill1 wrote: »

I've used the Tulammo a lot and I wouldn't give it reliable accuracy beyond 75 yds for rabbits (I mostly go for the heart, but I suppose you would hit them in the body reliably out to 150).

........... except Tulammo, which I've peeled back to 75yds (most of my shots are 75 or less,

Correct, but it can go slightly further.

The TulAmmo i use for 100 yards or less comps at the range. It's cheap and does the job plus it's better than paying €28 per box for Hornady. Especially with the amount of rounds per comp.

It can go from 1" to 1.5" groups at 100 yards with no consistency, but at sub 100 is reliable enough for decent groups for the comp.

As for hunting, never use it. Too incosistent, inaccurate and as you said FMJ which i simply wouldn't use.

Other value ammo I've managed to get are Fiocchi 50gr HP and Hornady steel match (I cleared Sean out in Thurles that time - thanks for the heads-up, Cass).

The HP Fiocchi are muck, imo. Worse even than the TulAmmo but without the price saving. I've tried it in three 223 rifles (semi auto, ractory bolt, custom 223) and none of them could group less than an 1" at 100 yards.

It was so bad i fired three rounds out of a box given to me, and gave the box to another lad. He got the same results and passed the box. I think i went to about 4 people before just being used to break a barrel in.

The BT stuff is far better, but Hornady is still is more consistent and accurate.

I don't like to go much over 50c per round, but I do have some Hornady VMax and Federal PSP's for foxes.

For the comps absolutely. It;s why i use TulAmmo. When i bulk buy it works out at about 10c a round. However for foxes and even rabbits i don't mind the cost when i get piece mind of knowing what i aim at, drops.

yubabill1

Cass wrote: »

The HP Fiocchi are muck, imo. Worse even than the TulAmmo but without the price saving. I've tried it in three 223 rifles (semi auto, ractory bolt, custom 223) and none of them could group less than an 1" at 100 yards.

It was so bad i fired three rounds out of a box given to me, and gave the box to another lad. He got the same results and passed the box. I think i went to about 4 people before just being used to break a barrel in.

The BT stuff is far better, but Hornady is still is more consistent and accurate.

Fiocchi HP gives me around .75" @ 100, I come from the old days when MOA was considered acceptable for hunting, so I would even take 1" groups @ 100 - for me the rabbit kill zone is around 2"

Agree about Tulammo - wrecks your head if you don't understand it. Has its uses though, especially if you're shooting a lot at closer ranges.

Would love to be able to shoot premium ammo all the time, but can't justify the dosh. I know the 223 is cheap to run, but I still stay on the cheap side of cheap. What does that make me?........Answers on a postcard.

Cass

yubabill1 wrote: »

Fiocchi HP gives me around .75" @ 100, I come from the old days when MOA was considered acceptable for hunting, so I would even take 1" groups @ 100 - for me the rabbit kill zone is around 2"

I'd take it too for a hunting rifle, but the custom 223 was not able to make it under 1" and the worse was a fraction of 2". The average was 1,5".

For a so called good bullet i was urtterly disappointed. I thought maybe it was the rifles used, but i ran some 50gr HP AE through them and they grouped much better. 1" or less in all rifles.

Agree about Tulammo - wrecks your head if you don't understand it. Has its uses though, especially if you're shooting a lot at closer ranges.

It's cheap and cheerful shooting no doubt.

Would love to be able to shoot premium ammo all the time, but can't justify the dosh. I know the 223 is cheap to run, but I still stay on the cheap side of cheap.

Don't get me wrong, i'm not so flush as to have hundreds of rounds of premium ammo in stock. I have two to three boxes and use it carefully rather than sparingly. IOW only shots i need good accuracy with or longer shots. For everything else, hunting wise, i stick with Fiocchi BT at €42 per 50. Cheaper than Hornady but no massive drop in quality.

What does that make me?........

The exact same as me. :cool:

yubabill1

Cass wrote: »

I'd take it too for a hunting rifle, but the custom 223 was not able to make it under 1" and the worse was a fraction of 2". The average was 1,5".

For a so called good bullet i was urtterly disappointed. I thought maybe it was the rifles used, but i ran some 50gr HP AE through them and they grouped much better. 1" or less in all rifles.

I've seen others say the same as you on here.

I've gotten .75 consistently from them and they hunt well for me: I've had a good bit of accurising done on the Tikka - pillar bedded, stock shaved to float the barrel properly, trigger lightened, AI bottom metal/mag.

Not saying it's competition for a custom rifle BTW.

Probably horses for courses wrt ammo - if your rig likes it, then go with it.

The AE are very reliable, alright.

PSXDupe

Guys

Where are you getting Tulammo, never seen it around. I'm also on the look out for cheaper ammo for short range shooting.

Is it 55gr rounds? I've a Remington 700 VLS

Thanks

Cass

Atlantic in Carlow. €7.50 per box, 3 for €20, and cheaper when you buy in bulk.

It's 62gr, steel cased.

Weight of a bullet is misleading. We all talk about twist rate and suitable weight of bullet, when if fact it's bearing surface length of the bullet that is key. Every calibre is fixed. Meaning a 40 gr bullet and 75 gr bullet in 223 have the same diameter. To make it heavier they make it longer. This is when twist rate comes into play. The longer a bullet the more bearing surface that engages the lands and grooves.




However if i were to talk to someone about suitable bullet for twist rate in terms of bearing surface i'd be talking in thousandths of an inch. For example (and excuse the numbers they are completely made up because i don't have the actual numbers) a 40 gr would not be a 40 gr but a 0.4721 bullet compared to the 0.5512 bullet (75 gr).

It's easier to talk in weights.


The reason i say weight is not ideal is because sometimes this weight to bearing surface is not always as predictable as you'd think. I'll discuss this in 308 as i know them. My rifle is 1:10 twist. It's suitable for bullets of 168 - 185 gr. They have longer bearing surfaces than 123 - 155 gr bullets so work better in the faster twist rate.

However the Lapua Scenar 155 gr is a long bullet. So long in fact that it's bearing surface length is the same as the 175 gr Sierra, and close to the 180 gr bullet. Because of this the bearing surface is longer, and the "lighter" bullet acts more like a "heavy" bullet. This means that although it's a 155 gr bullet it works, quite well, in a 1:10 twist.

It's for this reason that some rifles will shoot heavy or light bullets that seem to contradict the twist rate:bullet weight ratio.

PSXDupe

Thanks Cass

So from what I understand about this ammo.

It's a steel core and from reading on the net steel core ammo are a little longer

My .223 is 1:12 twist so chances are this stuff is not suitable because it's longer as it has a steel core and longer again because is 62gr

Which all comes down to it having a longer bearing surface

PSXDupe

Has anyone experience of shooting these Tulammo 62gr in a 1:12 twist 223

Do they stabilise?

Cass

PSXDupe wrote: »

It's a steel core

The website claims it's lead core, but i cannot say for sure if this is the case throughout the range of ammo.

My .223 is 1:12 twist so chances are this stuff is not suitable because it's longer as it has a steel core and longer again because is 62gr

It can be gotten in 55gr Hp or FMJ, 62gr HP or FMJ, and 75gr in HP or FMJ.

PSXDupe wrote: »

Has anyone experience of shooting these Tulammo 62gr in a 1:12 twist 223

Do they stabilise?

I tried them in a How 1500 with 1:12. Results were not great. It held roughly an inch or marginally more at 100 yards. If it's a cheap target round you're after they are good enough. For longer range stuff, probably not.

Most stuff i've seen, and i don't see a lot of dealers stocking it, is 62gr. As said above you can get 55 and 75 gr too. You can also buy it, in the states, in HP (Hollow Point), and they come in boxes of 20, 40 and 100.

Would like to see some more RFDs stocking it and stocking the larger boxes. I normally buy a few hundred at a time which brings the price down, but it'd be nice to have say 5 boxes with 500 rounds than 25 boxes with the same 500 rounds. First world problem i know. :D