one of this "which hybrid" thread again

Nuw

Hi all,

The brother is in search of an automatic petrol that won't break the bank on running cost, he's doing a good few miles in the city so I was thinking a hybrid would actually suit his needs quite well. Budget is >8000€.

Which one would you guys recommend? He's not a big fan of the prius image, but could be convinced if it really is the best of the bunch.

He likes the ct200h but is not convinced on the comfort of these as he heard it's somewhat of a harsh ride.

He could probably do with a yaris in terms of size but I'd advise against it as he does do a good few miles on motorways as well, not often (3-4 times/year), but long trips (6-7 hours driving, and back, so 13-15 really), but maybe an owner could tell it's decent (if not good) on motorways?

On paper, I root for the Honda Civic as it's probably the most comfortable/relaxed drive, but I'd love your opinions.

Thanks!

zoom_cool

Lexus ct200
Not sure you get one for €8k maybe from uk

Nuw

zoom_cool wrote: »

Lexus ct200
Not sure you get one for €8k maybe from uk

Thanks, budget might be flexible a bit for the right one.
If I may ask, what makes you recommend this one over the others?

The Lexus has the same electrics as the Prius so it would be down to which he prefers.

Toyota hybrids are some of the best cars ever built. There have been a few recalls so check this was done and that they have full Toyota service history.

I averaged 4.4 L/100 km Summer and 4.8 L/100 Km Winter , efficient tyres do help as does air pressure, I ran 38 PSI.

Get A or B rated tyres for efficiency and wet grip.

It takes some practice to get used to the hybrid drive and how to get the best out of it. Do a google search of boards like below.

site:www.boards.ie : pulse and glide

Pulse and glide works quiet well and there are many small villages I could drive through using no engine at all.

Basically I describe it like this, pulse and glide is coasting with an electric push. There are many road conditions that you can take full advantage it doesn't mean you have to drive slow at all but you take advantage of pulse and glide when you can.

Pulse and dglide works up to 67 Kph on the Mk II at least.

Anyway for the price you can't go wrong, they take high mileage very well but some issues can surface with batteries 10 years old + and you would most likely need to get a reconditioned one form the U.K.

The Automatic is bullet proof and unlikely to fail, it's a very simplistic version of an automatic and the current models are even better.

The Prius has been known to hit 400,000 miles with very little issues. North American taxis are proof of this.

You'd most likely have a lot less problems that plague higher mileage diesels today and not only that, a far more relaxing drive with non of that horrid diesel rattle and noise. Hard acceleration can be noisy due to the CVT holding high revs until speed builds , once up to speed it is quiet.

For 8K you might get a MK III from 2009 though some Gen II were registered in 09 the MK III came out in late 09.

Again, full Toyota service is essential.

Service every 10K miles 15 K Kms, at least that's what it was for the MK II , sparks every 60,000 kms depending on the ones they fit, brakes will last a long time due to regen.

I had a MK II for 4 years with no faults, there was about 200,000 Kms when I sold it. I now drive a Nissan Leaf and have 50,000 Kms on it in 1 year and 9 months.

Nuw

Thanks for this detailed input, I'll pass it on.

Anyone any experience from the Honda side?

n97 mini

We just sold our 2010 Prius. It replaced a 2003 Civic IMA Executive (which was manual, 2006+ is automatic (CVT)).

Civic is considerably cheaper, and simpler. The interior is nicer and made of higher quality materials. Amazingly even though the Prius had auto wipers it was missing a few basics, like heated seats (they were leather so it mattered!) and heated mirrors. Civic had both but not auto wipes (Civic 2006+ might have, not sure). Civic didn't have satnav but the Prius satnav was too expensive to update anyway, at €430 a pop!

Prius has bigger boot due to being a hatch. It's also better for overtaking. Civic has an independent suspension all round so is a better car to drive. Prius is a bit "boaty". Prius on 17" wheels gives a harsh ride, the wheels on the Civic were 15" so much more comfortable. Both had similar levels of cabin noise.

Maintenance costs are about the same as despite its much greater complexity the Prius (and Civic) are serviced pretty much the same as any petrol car.

Economy wise there is very little in it in real life. Driven carefully both return excellent numbers, driven carelessly both will show a big hit. (This is where a manual is better too, giving the driver the choice of gear ratio)

We still have a 2004 Civic IMA in the family. 126k miles. Battery (as reflected in the economy) is as good as it was in 2007 when I bought it. Given the choice both myself and my wife would pick the Civic every time over the 2010 Prius.

HTH.

Nuw

Nice feedback, thanks!

Anyone would have experience using a yaris hybrid on motorway runs?
Any other feedback on the insight? Looks cheap enough to buy... not sure how it is to drive though.

zilog_jones

I don't have experience with the Yaris but just based on the class and size of car I wouldn't recommend it for regular motorway driving. Maybe the Auris Hybrid is also worth considering? It would be in-between the Yaris and Prius in terms of size.

Regarding Prius vs. CT200h: The Prius has more space inside and should be slightly better with fuel consumption (better aerodynamics), but the CT200h has the nicer interior. The 3rd gen Prius interior is a bit of compromise due to efforts in weight reduction and using plant-based plastics.

If you look in the UK it's easier to get better spec with nice toys, e.g. JBL stereo, heated seats, etc. Prius "Luxury" in Ireland is still quite basic.

I hear the Insight is cheap because it's made kinda cheap - poor quality interior, etc. Again no personal experience.

Deleted User wrote: »

Again, full Toyota service is essential.

Is it? I'll probably service mine myself once the warranty is up - seems quite easy to do with good access. The Hybrid health check (whatever that really entails) can allegedly be done without servicing, but it will be interesting to see what the local dealers will actually offer. Of course you should check if any recalls have been done (there have been a few).

brakes will last a long time due to regen.

Rear discs on the 3rd gen Prius can have problems with corrosion and sticking calipers (especially in areas that salt the roads a lot), which may require caliper and or disc replacement if not looked after.

n97 mini wrote: »

Civic didn't have satnav but the Prius satnav was too expensive to update anyway, at €430 a pop!

Satnav upgrades are free on post-facelift models (2012 onwards) - might not help the OP though.

Maintenance costs are about the same as despite its much greater complexity the Prius (and Civic) are serviced pretty much the same as any petrol car.

The hybrid system in the Prius is maybe more sophisticated than the Civic but not necessarily more complex. In the 3rd gen Prius there is no auxiliary belt, no starter motor, and the transmission is quite simple in many ways (just unconventional more than anything else). Some components are quite expensive but usually reliable - there's a lot of expensive emissions crap in modern diesels that are much more likely to fail

n97 mini

zilog_jones wrote: »

The hybrid system in the Prius is maybe more sophisticated than the Civic but not necessarily more complex.

It's considerably more complex! The IMA "motor" is essentially just an upgraded flywheel in a thin wedge between the engine and transmission. And that's it. Otherwise it's just software and a battery. (The IMA motor starts the ICE, but there is a conventional starter in the event of a system failure tho I've never heard it in my car in 9 years of ownership)



Someone likened the approaches taken by Toyota and Honda in the Prius and Civic IMA to the approaches taken by them in the Supra and NSX. One is brutalist twin turbo active aerodynamics, the other is simple and efficient design. But out of the box there's not a lot between them.

The Prius has a much more powerful hybrid system and offers better economy.

Nuw

Nuw wrote: »

Anyone would have experience using a yaris hybrid on motorway runs?
.

If someone thinks they know what a car gets on the motorway then they're most likely resetting the trip computer just before they get to the motorway while the car has warmed up this is an incorrect way to calculate fuel consumption.

It's what the average consumption per tank or life is what matters because what you may loose on the motorway you gain in town and on slower routes.

Ideally you reset the trip computer after a fill and then again after you fill up the next time.

n97 mini

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The Prius has a much more powerful hybrid system and offers better economy.

Than what?

n97 mini

n97 mini wrote: »

Than what?

Than the honda hybrids.

n97 mini

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Than the honda hybrids.

Have you owned both?

n97 mini

n97 mini wrote: »

Have you owned both?

No, so I'm wrong i suppose ?

n97 mini

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No, so I'm wrong i suppose ?

What you read in magazines vs real life experience is not always the same. Having owned Civic IMAs cumulatively for 12 years and a Prius for three years, I can say with conviction the Prius is better for overtaking, but around town there's little difference. The hybrid system is an order of magnitude more complex in the Prius, but that doesn't mean it's better. The proof, economy wise, is in the pudding, and I honestly can't say one is better than the other. Both have their strengths and weaknesses, and there is a lot of overlap.

When it comes to economics the Civic is the winner by a country mile. New (UK prices) the Civic was £16k when the Prius was £24k. Additionally the Civic doesn't hold its value nearly as well as the Prius, making excellent 2nd hand value.

I was basing my views on magazines but reviews by Honda hybrid owners.

The Toyota Hybrid system is a lot more powerful though.

n97 mini

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I was basing my views on magazines but reviews by Honda hybrid owners.

The Toyota Hybrid system is a lot more powerful though.

Drive both. A lot isn't a word I'd use.

Nuw

Thanks for your input everyone, interesting to have several feedback.

Here are some from us as we went and test drove a Prius and an Insight over the weekend:

Prius is miles ahead in terms of interior (MK2, T-Spirit), it feels well put together and has a lot going for it in terms of ease of use and feeling of space. To drive it felt a bit "disconnected" if you see what I mean, not necessarily a turn off given the environment it will be used in though. It seems practical enough in terms of interior space and the seats were OK.

Insight felt a lot cheaper on the inside, the biggest niggle was the lack of a decent central armrest, but the design somewhat makes up for this as it is quite funky to look at and even though the materials do feel cheap, it also seems well screwed together. To drive, it felt a lot more like any other car the same size, a lot more "connected" to the road than the prius without being uncomfortable. Practicality is on par to the prius (for what it will be used for anyway), space and seats were decent enough.

Both returned the same MPG on the somewhat small run we had (few miles in stop/start traffic, few miles on the M1/M50) at 45 mpg for the prius and 44 for the insight, even though these numbers don't mean a lot (only one short run with two different drivers each time).

So far the Insight seems to be the winner for the brother, cheaper to buy, more than decent for what he'll do with it, looks funky (especially inside), drives like a regular car, returns more than decent mpg...

Anyway, more on this after we go and test drive the ct200h and the civic.

zilog_jones

I think the 3rd gen Prius would be a fairer comparison against the Insight (they were both new in 2009), especially in terms of driving dynamics where there were significant improvements. I had discounted the 2nd gen based on this.

Nuw

zilog_jones wrote: »

I think the 3rd gen Prius would be a fairer comparison against the Insight (they were both new in 2009), especially in terms of driving dynamics where there were significant improvements. I had discounted the 2nd gen based on this.

I see what you mean, however a good MK3 would be a tad over budget, mind you so will be a ct200h....

Let see how it goes, might try a MK3 later on.

zilog_jones

Your original post said "greater than €8,000" so wasn't really sure what your limit is, and yes the CT200h isn't cheap either

Nuw

zilog_jones wrote: »

Your original post said "greater than €8,000" so wasn't really sure what your limit is, and yes the CT200h isn't cheap either

Indeed... wasn't entirely sure then what the budget would be as the maths weren't properly done yet, it was more of a ballpark figure

I think he's set on less than 8k now, preferably, but could stretch a bit if the car is really a good notch better. So far, he's not convinced any will strike a better balance between buying cost/running cost/driving experience than the insight, let see what comes of the civic (test due tomorrow), and if i can convince him to give the lex a try.

I'll update the thread once the rest of them have been seen/tested (probably by the end of the week) with our thoughts, and, hopefully, his final decision .

zilog_jones

At that price point, I think the Civic would certainly be worth considering.

n97 mini

Superficially while the specs look the same the Insight II has a lower capacity battery, around 550w vs 880w (iirc), and weaker motor than the Civic IMA II: 10kw vs 15kw. But owing to the Insight being smaller and lighter the fuel economy should be around the same. I only drove the Insight II briefly, but it is built to a budget and designed to be significantly cheaper than the car from another manufacturer which it sort of resembles

n97 mini

n97 mini wrote: »

Drive both. A lot isn't a word I'd use.

No, I'm talking about the electric power not combined power.

n97 mini

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No, I'm talking about the electric power not combined power.

True, it is, but I'd consider "hybrid system" to mean the combined power.

n97 mini

n97 mini wrote: »

True, it is, but I'd consider "hybrid system" to mean the combined power.

I suppose you could interpret it that way, but I meant that the electric motor in the prius is a lot more powerful so can make better use of regenerated energy and less reliance on the engine.

Nuw

So, we went to see the civic yestereve, quite impressed to be honest, it's a good notch above the insight, especially the interior. The big one would be the boot (especially the lack of folding backseat).

Other than that it feels well panted on the road, not fast but it's enough for your average drive, even on the motorway. It felt less playful than the insight though, more "grown-up" if you will. In the Insight we had a sense of it being a happy little thing, the civic felt pretty boring by comparison. Don't get me wrong here, both are good to drive, Civic is better in every way (except the boot) and neither are 'exciting', but in the insight you have a (little) sense that you're driving something somewhat special.

In any case, it looks like the civic is the winner so far and given the budget might be tighter than originally thought, it probably will remain at the top of the list.

If it changes, I'll update this thread.

In any case, thank you all for your different feedback.

Did you test drive the Prius ?

Nuw

Deleted User wrote: »

Did you test drive the Prius ?

Not the MK3, no. At least not yet. Might give it a go later on, but budget probably won't allow it, let see how it develops.

Nuw

Just a quick update on this to let you guys know, neither the ct200h nor the prius mk3 would fit the budget, looks like civic it is. Appreciate everyone's input, thanks lads!

Cool, best of luck, keep us updated. Either way, better than diesel..... :-)