Loss of employers bank lodgement

Dial Hard

Dingledangle wrote:

This is true. Just trying to stand by a person, I think of as genuine and kind, there's nothing wrong with that is there.

No, but you can't ask for advice from completely neutral strangers on the internet and then get your knickers in a twist when they question your friend's judgement.

Avatar MIA

Walter2016 wrote: »

Night safe or AIB banking lobby (open 8am to 9pm) would be out of hours.

I was wondering if the OP would mention that.

Stheno

Dingledangle wrote: »

I don't know the in's and out's of night safe. I wouldn't imagine it is safe for the person doing it on their own, is it?

Was your friend lodging to a night safe?

Avatar MIA

Dingledangle wrote: »

I don't know the in's and out's of night safe. I wouldn't imagine it is safe for the person doing it on their own, is it?

Your friend accepted the responsibility of making the lodgement and getting 15 minutes extra pay, so I don't think a defence of 'it's your fault I lost the money... because it's unsafe to let me do it on my own'

If you only take one piece of advice away from this discussion is that it's best not to blame the manager for this loss.

For future lodgements that might be something worth mentioning. However, who'd trust this person with €8k again. And by trust I mean having common sense.

Stheno

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Your friend accepted the responsibility of making the lodgement and getting 15 minutes extra pay, so I don't think a defence of 'it's your fault I lost the money... because it's unsafe to let me do it on my own'

If you only take one piece of advice away from this discussion is that it's best not to blame the manager for this loss.

For future lodgements that might be something worth mentioning. However, who'd trust this person with €8k again. And by trust I mean having common sense.

The far greater issue to me is not advising the owner of the loss for six weeks

livedadream

Stheno wrote: »

The far greater issue to me is not advising the owner of the loss for six weeks

not that fact that he lets randomers into his car while the cash is present and on working time or calling into his mammys for tea?

seems a bit movie in the making to me...

who even picks up hitchhikers these days anyway...

Avatar MIA

Stheno wrote: »

The far greater issue to me is not advising the owner of the loss for six weeks

Agreed. However, I can understand how someone could be petrified at the thought of losing €8k and not act rationally.

As has been mentioned above, it's not likely to be all cash, and if cheques the greater the delay the greater the risk of not getting a replacement cheque from the customer.

Avatar MIA

Dingledangle wrote: »

I don't think they did in the week as they only work a few hours, but I presume they would have to Saturdays and Sundays, as I remember them saying they didn't like doing it. But they would sometimes be finished too early and banks not open so would wait until the bank opened. I'm really not sure, I would just be guessing on what I can remember them ever saying previously.

Do you mean her bank closes for lunch?

In that case, in future, her shift should not end where she needs to leave work and the bank she needs to travel to is not open. That's for the future though.

2RockMountain

livedadream wrote: »

Either way if I trusted an employee wth 8000 of cash from my business and found out they were stopping ANYWHERE on the way to the bank it would be considered a huge risk and gross misconduct it's common sense do the job then check on your parents.

It would very difficult to claim 'gross misconduct' if you hadn't set out clear, written procedures for the employee beforehand, such as 'no stopping, no passengers'. The employer isn't giving the employer a great gift or benefit in 'trusting him with €8k' - the employer is getting someone to do a messy and potentially dangerous bit of work for 15 minutes pay - probably less than a fiver.

Avatar MIA wrote: »

The bold bit is totally irrelevant. How do their parents manage the other 9 hours they are in work.

BTW, if they travel to the bank it's during work hours anyway - why are they getting paid for 15 minutes during the work day?

And they should be getting mileage for 8 miles not the most likely far less (after tax) 15 minutes.

The employee isn't fiddling the employer by stopping off at their parents. He gets 15 minutes paid time, whether he takes 10 minutes or 2 hours to do the bank run. From a time point of view, it is none of the employer's business where the employee goes or how long the journey takes. There is a security issue here, but if the employer didn't make a rule of 'no stops', it would be very hard for them to make a big deal of this now.

Avatar MIA

2RockMountain wrote: »

The employee isn't fiddling the employer by stopping off at their parents. He gets 15 minutes paid time, whether he takes 10 minutes or 2 hours to do the bank run. From a time point of view, it is none of the employer's business where the employee goes or how long the journey takes. There is a security issue here, but if the employer didn't make a rule of 'no stops', it would be very hard for them to make a big deal of this now.

I'm pretty sure it's an implied contract that when the employer says, 'Here's €8k, take it to the bank.' it's beholden on the employee not to lose said €8k. If they then lost it by doing silly things, then it's the employees fault. A protocol cannot cover every scenario. For example, should the protocol instruct, 'The employee must not juggle the bundles of cash as they walk to the bank.' Picking up a hitchhiker falls into the same commonsense requirement.

livedadream

2RockMountain wrote: »

It would very difficult to claim 'gross misconduct' if you hadn't set out clear, written procedures for the employee beforehand, such as 'no stopping, no passengers'. The employer isn't giving the employer a great gift or benefit in 'trusting him with €8k' - the employer is getting someone to do a messy and potentially dangerous bit of work for 15 minutes pay - probably less than a fiver.

to be fair im not talking about getting paid im talking about the lack of common sense someone would have to have to stop off somewhere with that amount of cash on them or pick up randomers that are hitching a lift. and guidelines or not there is an expectation of certain things in employment not everything has to be written down, and again to be fair i think being sacked is the lest of this guys problems...


its pretty easy for the employers to say well jesus i dont have it in your contract that you need to wipe your arse are going to the toilet either its just assumed you will use common sense, the same with lodging money that doesnt belong to you.

Carlos Orange

2RockMountain wrote: »

It would very difficult to claim 'gross misconduct' if you hadn't set out clear, written procedures for the employee beforehand, such as 'no stopping, no passengers'.

As a human I would consider losing 8K of employer cash gross misconduct. As a matter of law I don't have a clue. I did hear of someone loosing a couple of thousand in cash before and nothing happened to that employee because there were a couple of lawyers on the company board and they were reluctant to get rid of the person. Reading some cases below the law probably doesn't line it too well with my personal beliefs.

http://insighthr.ie/discipline-process-for-gross-misconduct/

anewme

But has the person any idea what really happened to the cash? Did they definitely pick up a hitch hiker on the way to the bank that day. Even so, if the person was in the car at the same time as the Hitch hiker.....did they not see the hitch hiker take something from the car? Surely they did not leave a random stranger alone with 8k sitting there? Was it in an envelope?

This might seem a lot of questions but you can't just lose8k.

I've worked in big businesses and small businesses and in a small business it was often all hands on deck so it could be a case of.....will someone take the bank lodgement? Granted, it was more cheques than cash, but nobody ever lost anything. What I'm saying, is that the processes and procedures that are HR originated in a big business are not always as well documented in a small business. Smaller business is more likely to be badly hit though by this loss.

I'd be livid if someone "lost" 8k. I can understand the person panicking but the money has to be somewhere or else it was stolen while in the persons remit. They actually had a duty to report it to the Gardai.

I know it's your friend op and you can vouch for them especially if you've said they have had their own share of problems, but to an outsider, this story would appear to have more holes than a Swiss cheese, and they should prepare thenselves for those type of questions. Legal advice before meeting the employer.

zoe 3619

No real advice to offer,but this must be incredibly stressful for your friend.
The longer it goes on for,the more difficult it will become.Whatever the consequences turn out to be,telling the boss would probably be a huge relief. It would take the uncertainty from the situation,and anything that needs to be done (such as cancelling cheques or reporting random hitch-hikers to the guards) is better done sooner rather than later.
Losing the money may have been careless,but keeping quiet for so long has compounded the situation hugely.

BorneTobyWilde

Was it you who lost it OP.

2RockMountain

Avatar MIA wrote: »

I'm pretty sure it's an implied contract that when the employer says, 'Here's €8k, take it to the bank.' it's beholden on the employee not to lose said €8k. If they then lost it by doing silly things, then it's the employees fault. A protocol cannot cover every scenario. For example, should the protocol instruct, 'The employee must not juggle the bundles of cash as they walk to the bank.' Picking up a hitchhiker falls into the same commonsense requirement.

livedadream wrote: »

to be fair im not talking about getting paid im talking about the lack of common sense someone would have to have to stop off somewhere with that amount of cash on them or pick up randomers that are hitching a lift. and guidelines or not there is an expectation of certain things in employment not everything has to be written down, and again to be fair i think being sacked is the lest of this guys problems...


its pretty easy for the employers to say well jesus i dont have it in your contract that you need to wipe your arse are going to the toilet either its just assumed you will use common sense, the same with lodging money that doesnt belong to you.

I see yisser points, and there is some truth in them, but it's not a black and white issue either.

There are people who have no real concept of larger amounts of money. Anything beyond the few hundred quid they get in their hand each week has no real meaning for them. It is possible that this person has no real concept of what €8k means, and how it is different in buying power from €800 or €80k or €800k. That may explain why things that seem obvious to you and me (no stops, no hitchers) were not obvious at all to the employee.

This is why if an employer is getting an employee to do a job like this, they should have clear instructions about how to do it. It is possible that the employee is invalidating their car insurance by carrying this money, so the employer shouldn't slip into this kind of task without thinking it through..

Dial Hard

2RockMountain wrote:

There are people who have no real concept of larger amounts of money. Anything beyond the few hundred quid they get in their hand each week has no real meaning for them. It is possible that this person has no real concept of what €8k means, and how it is different in buying power from €800 or €80k or €800k. That may explain why things that seem obvious to you and me (no stops, no hitchers) were not obvious at all to the employee.

Ah here. The only people I can think of having no concept of what 8k is worth are the super-rich and I think it's safe to assume the OP's mate doesn't fall into that category.

Walter2016

Dial Hard wrote: »

Ah here. The only people I can think of having no concept of what 8k is worth are the super-rich and I think it's safe to assume the OP's mate doesn't fall into that category.

The funny thing is that cash in the course of a business has no "meaning" to many - after a while you don't see the real value in it as it is just a commodity used in a transaction.

In the business I'm in we'll handle over €1m in December, we'll count it, we'll bag it and it will get collected by seneca.

At the end of dec, I'll get about 4k in wages - that 4k to me is a far bigger amount than the €1m that will pass my eyes in the course of work.

So, in a way 8k in a business sense may not seem a large amount - that is until you lose it.


But still, best advice is to be straight up. No matter what it will be noticed at some stage.

_Brian

There is no other way to look at this other than gross misconduct..

IMO this "friend" is looking at dismissal, and an uncomfortable chat with the guards. TBH I don't believe the whole hitchhiker story, its just madness, very convenient that its so untraceable. If I were the employer I'd be viewing this as a likely theft.

Blatter

The hitchhiker story is only believable from the point of view that it's hard to believe somebody could be stupid enough to make up something so far-fetched and unbelievable as an explanation for €8k going missing. It'd be much easier to claim that you left the car unattended and unlocked for a period whilst the money was inside.

Mrs OBumble

Thinking some more about this, the thing about it not being noticed for weeks just doesn't ring true. No business would just not notice for that long.

OP, I originally thought that you might have been the friend. But it's just too far-fetched.

Now I'm wondering if it's an attempt to get some cash out of you? What evidence do you have about the situation, other than what the person has told you?

My advice would be to not even consider giving them any cash, no matter how "desperate" they may become. If they tell you something like they will <<some form of self-harm>> if they cannot get it by tomorrow (or whatever), then contact the guards yourself.

Suzyq

If I were the employer, the 6 week delay in telling me would ring huge alarm bells. The parents/hitch hiker/lightheadedness is all information that's not my issue.

At the end of the day, I've paid someone to lodge €8k to my bank account and it has disappeared. They've chosen not to tell me for 6 weeks.

I'd be amazed if they didn't get the guards involved.

CruelCoin

_Brian wrote: »

There is no other way to look at this other than gross misconduct..

IMO this "friend" is looking at dismissal, and an uncomfortable chat with the guards. TBH I don't believe the whole hitchhiker story, its just madness, very convenient that its so untraceable. If I were the employer I'd be viewing this as a likely theft.

The insurance company isn't going to accept a 6 week + delay in notification.
At a minimum the OPs friend should have gone to the guards to get a report.

Whoever this is, my jaw would hit the floor if they kept their job.

The company is 8k down and the OPs friend doesn't remember if they even went to the bank? This isn't the kind of person i'd trust with the keys to the stationery closet.

OP, your friend need to go to the guards, obtain legal advice and then tell the employer, and bloody asap.

_Brian

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Thinking some more about this, the thing about it not being noticed for weeks just doesn't ring true. No business would just not notice for that long.

OP, I originally thought that you might have been the friend. But it's just too far-fetched.

Now I'm wondering if it's an attempt to get some cash out of you? What evidence do you have about the situation, other than what the person has told you?

My advice would be to not even consider giving them any cash, no matter how "desperate" they may become. If they tell you something like they will <<some form of self-harm>> if they cannot get it by tomorrow (or whatever), then contact the guards yourself.

Great advice there.
It's all too convenient that none of this story can be checked out.
The friend, if there really is one sounds like Walter Mitty

anewme

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Thinking some more about this, the thing about it not being noticed for weeks just doesn't ring true. No business would just not notice for that long.

I've worked in small business where this type of thing might not show up till you were doing the bank rec at month end. Especially if you had a bit of cash in the account

seamus

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Thinking some more about this, the thing about it not being noticed for weeks just doesn't ring true. No business would just not notice for that long.

Dunno, some of the stories you hear online; someone loses a big chunk of cash for the company, spends days agonising over what to do, only to discover that someone in accounts or sales has seen it and assuming it was their own screw up and taken steps to try and cover it up.

If the owner of this company is as light-headed as to give the days' takings to someone flaky to lodge, they may not bother looking at the business account for weeks.

I know the OP has done a legger, but for future reference, an employer cannot generally chase an employee for losses, not even docking from wages, unless

1. They can prove in court that the employee was acting with intent or gross negligence, or
2. Deductions for losses and damage have been included in the employee's contract

Even in the case of no. 2, deductions must be reasonable and take into account the employee's circumstances. Small deductions for small damages are fine. Huge deductions for huge losses are not.
At some point it becomes the employer's fault for giving the employee responsibilities beyond his capability.
Even if the employee agreed to pay back the €8k, the employer would be required to take his financial situation into account, which might require an €80 deduction every month for nearly 9 years.

Most employers would just fire the employee and take the hit.

_Brian

seamus wrote: »

Dunno, some of the stories you hear online; someone loses a big chunk of cash for the company, spends days agonising over what to do, only to discover that someone in accounts or sales has seen it and assuming it was their own screw up and taken steps to try and cover it up.

If the owner of this company is as light-headed as to give the days' takings to someone flaky to lodge, they may not bother looking at the business account for weeks.

I know the OP has done a legger, but for future reference, an employer cannot generally chase an employee for losses, not even docking from wages, unless

1. They can prove in court that the employee was acting with intent or gross negligence, or
2. Deductions for losses and damage have been included in the employee's contract

Even in the case of no. 2, deductions must be reasonable and take into account the employee's circumstances. Small deductions for small damages are fine. Huge deductions for huge losses are not.
At some point it becomes the employer's fault for giving the employee responsibilities beyond his capability.
Even if the employee agreed to pay back the €8k, the employer would be required to take his financial situation into account, which might require an €80 deduction every month for nearly 9 years.

Most employers would just fire the employee and take the hit.

Your implication is that the employer can do little in this instance other than terminate.

I think they should be contacting the guards and report a theft of €8k, that and initiate termination of employment.

2RockMountain

_Brian wrote: »

Your implication is that the employer can do little in this instance other than terminate.

I think they should be contacting the guards and report a theft of €8k, that and initiate termination of employment.

THere is no theft. The employer gave the employee the money.

Kristopherus

2RockMountain wrote: »

THere is no theft. The employer gave the employee the money.

So If you give me €8K to lodge and I don't lodge it and don't tell you for 6/7 weeks that I did'nt lodge the money and cannot find it, what would you think?

The employer in this case would be well justified in thinking the €8k was stolen.

seamus

_Brian wrote: »

Your implication is that the employer can do little in this instance other than terminate.

I think they should be contacting the guards and report a theft of €8k, that and initiate termination of employment.

Kristopherus wrote: »

So If you give me €8K to lodge and I don't lodge it and don't tell you for 6/7 weeks that I did'nt lodge the money and cannot find it, what would you think?

The employer in this case would be well justified in thinking the €8k was stolen.

The employer can make the complaint, but without pretty good evidence that contradicts the "lost" claim, the DPP is unlikely to proceed with any kind of charges.

At best one could make the claim that the attempt to repay the money implies a feeling of guilt on behalf of the employee, but it doesn't prove theft.

So there is little the employer can do in real terms. A complaint of theft doesn't mean anything unless the Gardai believe it has weight.

Taking the OP's story at face value, the Gardai might bring them in for a quick chat and interview, but it would become pretty clear that there's no theft after occurring.