Loss of employers bank lodgement

jimmycrackcorm

seamus wrote:

Even if the employee agreed to pay back the €8k, the employer would be required to take his financial situation into account, which might require an €80 deduction every month for nearly 9 years.

The optimum course of action is for the employee to agree a temporary reduction of their gross wage. E.g. If the employee is earning 50k then agree a reduced salary of 42k for a year. That way the employer is not out on 8k and the employee is effectively is saving 12k on paying back ( I.e. Not paying 4k that would go to the tax man, on top of having to effectively earn an extra 8k to make up for a nett payment after marginal tax).

anewme

2RockMountain wrote: »

THere is no theft. The employer gave the employee the money.

Of course there is a theft. Where is the money otherwise?

anewme

seamus wrote: »

Taking the OP's story at face value, the Gardai might bring them in for a quick chat and interview, but it would become pretty clear that there's no theft after occurring.

If you take the OP's story at face value...then the Hitchhiker stole the money....the onus was therefore on the employee to report a theft to the Gardai

seamus

anewme wrote: »

If you take the OP's story at face value...then the Hitchhiker stole the money....the onus was therefore on the employee to report a theft to the Gardai

Sure. But that doesn't make the employee guilty of theft or complicit in the theft.

There is no law against a failure to report.

Again, it would be a civil matter between employee and employer, one any employer would be unlikely to bring to court over €8k.

anewme

seamus wrote: »

Sure. But that doesn't make the employee guilty of theft or complicit in the theft.

There is no law against a failure to report.

Again, it would be a civil matter between employee and employer, one any employer would be unlikely to bring to court over €8k.

Agreed that employer would more than likely not bother..........but my point is there has definitely been a theft somewhere along the line..........the €8K did not go into thin air. it looks very suspicious that the employee did not report a theft of €8K that they had responsibility over.

if I gave someone a lift and then something was missing from my car, I'd ring the Gardai straight away, in case there was CCTV of the person somewhere if they were hitching etc. By sitting on it for 8 weeks, there is no hope of catching the real thieff and that in itself looks suspect.

Colser

You're hardly going to throw the money on the seat so how could the hitchhiker find it without the friend noticing...I haven't seen a someone hitching in years anyway.

2RockMountain

Kristopherus wrote: »

So If you give me €8K to lodge and I don't lodge it and don't tell you for 6/7 weeks that I did'nt lodge the money and cannot find it, what would you think?

The employer in this case would be well justified in thinking the €8k was stolen.

They would well be justified in thinking something is up - but theft is one of a number of possibilities.

anewme wrote: »

Of course there is a theft. Where is the money otherwise?

It is sitting in the ditch outside the employee's Mammy's house where he dropped it.

That's one possibility.

anewme

2RockMountain wrote: »

They would well be justified in thinking something is up - but theft is one of a number of possibilities.

It is sitting in the ditch outside the employee's Mammy's house where he dropped it.

That's one possibility.

Why mention the hitch hiker then. You cant just lose 8k and not have any idea where its gone.

The whole thing is just odd.

Stealthfins

2RockMountain wrote:

THere is no theft. The employer gave the employee the money.

Seriously,you can't be serious.

The money is gone,who's the last responsible person to have the money ?

RossieMan

The employer because the employee doesn't look like they should be let out by themselves at all.

But yes, I agree it's theft at this stage.

2RockMountain

Stealthfins wrote: »

Seriously,you can't be serious.

The money is gone,who's the last responsible person to have the money ?

Yes, the last responsible person is the employer. They are the one that decided it was OK to give €8k of their hard-earned with no proper instructions or procedures.

anewme wrote: »

Why mention the hitch hiker then. You cant just lose 8k and not have any idea where its gone.

The whole thing is just odd.

Why not mention the hitch-hiker? Or maybe the money fell out at the stop where he picked up the hitch-hiker?

Or maybe the employee whipped it, or maybe his mammy whipped it, or maybe the hitch-hiker took it - lots of possibilities, but no certainty at all.

I could understand the employer involving the Gardai, but I doubt if they would press charges based on the evidence we've heard.

Satriale

OP. I havent seen the first post and im not even sure if you are still reading, but just on the offchance, did you try all the Garda stations on your route. If i found 8k, thats the first place i'd go.

ted1

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

The optimum course of action is for the employee to agree a temporary reduction of their gross wage. E.g. If the employee is earning 50k then agree a reduced salary of 42k for a year. That way the employer is not out on 8k and the employee is effectively is saving 12k on paying back ( I.e. Not paying 4k that would go to the tax man, on top of having to effectively earn an extra 8k to make up for a nett payment after marginal tax).

And the employer saves over 10% in prsi. That course of action would be morable wrong. The employers insurance should cover the loss

2RockMountain

ted1 wrote: »

And the employer saves over 10% in prsi. That course of action would be morable wrong. The employers insurance should cover the loss

I really hope that insurers don't toss around cash that easily. The employer treated his €8k very casually. Insurance should not cover his lack of attention and rigor.

Shelflife

Im not sure what planet some people are on that think an employer will simply roll over on an €8k loss.

First the Insurance wont cover it, if it was a robbery it prob would but not in this instance.

If it happened to me as an employer (it would be spotted missing in the same week) the employee would be called in and asked where the money was, if they came up with a fairy tale of picking up hitchhikersand visiting their parents solving world hunger etc , I would give them 24 hours to replace the cash before I called the Guards in, saying you simply lost it wont cut any ice.

After criminal proceedings were finished if I still hadnt my money civil proceedings would take place.

If you dont follow up on it you are leaving yourself open to it happening again.

seamus

Shelflife wrote: »

I would give them 24 hours to replace the cash before I called the Guards in, saying you simply lost it wont cut any ice.

After criminal proceedings were finished if I still hadnt my money civil proceedings would take place.

If the employee has been there a long time, you could realistically find yourself on the other side of a wrongful dismissal counter-claim.

If you didn't believe their story, why would you give them 24 hours at all - just fire them and call the Gardai. Why would you blackmail them and open yourself up to a world of pain?

If you dont follow up on it you are leaving yourself open to it happening again.

Yes, if you don't fire the employee who lost it. And put actual procedures in place for lodging cash.
Calling the Gardai or throwing your money away on a civil case won't stop it happening again.

Shelflife

I never mentioned an instant dismissal, youre the one suggesting that you fire them and then call the guards, even in a suspected theft case you still must follow correct procedure.

Youre not blackmailing them, you are giving them one last chance to sort out the issue. Many will try to repay stolen money when they realise the guards are about to get involved.

You want to give yourself the best chance of getting your cash back so thats the way you should play it.

CruelCoin

ted1 wrote: »

The employers insurance should cover the loss

They will flat out refuse ANY loss of this scale without a gardai report, and even then 6 weeks is waay past the cut-off point.

Insurance payout is a non-runner.

One way or another, that employee has caused a permanent 8k loss to their employer.

2RockMountain

Shelflife wrote: »

After criminal proceedings were finished if I still hadnt my money civil proceedings would take place.

Civil proceedings could be fun.

Question 1: Mr Employer, please show us the risk assessment that you carried out (as required by law) to assess the safety of the employee carrying your cash to the bank?

Shelflife wrote: »

If you dont follow up on it you are leaving yourself open to it happening again.

If you change your procedures to put proper precautions and instructions in place, you are on a lot safer ground.

Shelflife

I agree that it could well be a waste of time to follow up on a civil case if there were no procedures in place.

And I also realise the likelyhood of being paid by the employee is prob slim as well.But its something that you would have top look into at least.

seamus

Shelflife wrote: »

Youre not blackmailing them, you are giving them one last chance to sort out the issue. Many will try to repay stolen money when they realise the guards are about to get involved.

It's potentially blackmail - "get me my money or I'm going to tell the Gardai you've stolen it"

If the employee has genuinely lost it, then you're telling them to cover the loss out of their own pocket under threat of arrest.

If you believe it's been stolen, then why wait to ring the Gardai?

Like I say, you could land yourself in actual trouble making threats like that.

2RockMountain

It raises the question of employee's responsibility for losses as a result of their errors.

Losing €8k cash is (in principal) no different from losing €8k of chemicals or food ingredients by adding the wrong item into the pot, or losing €8k of granite in a kitchen by dropping a lump hammer at the wrong time and place.

Are employee's now on the hook for any such errors?

Mrs OBumble

2RockMountain wrote: »

Are employee's now on the hook for any such errors?

Depends what you mean by "on the hook".

I'd certainly expect someone who made expensive errors like that to be fired for gross incompetence, in the cooking case anyways: wasting 8k worth of ingredients would be pretty damn hard to do.

The granite floor would probably be covered by the builder's insurance - I can't imagine the insurance company would be too happy to have someone who'd done a f*** up that big on a site they were covering any more.

2RockMountain

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Depends what you mean by "on the hook".

I'd certainly expect someone who made expensive errors like that to be fired for gross incompetence, in the cooking case anyways: wasting 8k worth of ingredients would be pretty damn hard to do.

The granite floor would probably be covered by the builder's insurance - I can't imagine the insurance company would be too happy to have someone who'd done a f*** up that big on a site they were covering any more.

By 'on the hook', I meant liable for the cost of their errors.

Yes, an employer can fire in certain circumstances, including gross misconduct.

But can the employer chase the employee for the €8k cost of the ingredients, or the €8k cost of the worktop? Presumably not, as far as I'm aware. So why could the employer chase the employee for the €8k cash that was lost in transit (which is one possible explanation for the loss).