READ MOD WARNING POST #1 BEFORE POSTING- Joshua Vs Klitschko

snowflaker

Joshua Points

I think I'll watch the fight in Full as I've been asleep for half the day lol

vetinari

I'll have to rewatch the first 4 rounds, no idea how anyone gave some of them to Klitschko. Not a whole lot happened in them but Joshua was throwing a lot more punches. It seemed like a tactic by Wlad to just take those rounds easy.

StringerBell

Josh was throwing, and missing a lot more then Wlad who was scoring in those rounds, from my memory anyway. I had rounds 1 and 2 to Wlad, round 3 to AJ and round 4 to Wlad

.ak

Round 2 and 4 defo to Wlad in terms of the earlier rounds. I was really impressed by Wlad, really was outboxing him at stages. AJ will learn a lot from that fight.

MD1990

Joshua KO

Morrison J wrote: »

Ortiz v Pulev in the works. Exactly the kind of fight Ortiz needs to get his name more in the conversation for the really big fights.

https://twitter.com/julianisjulius/status/858780544162832388

Ortiz might not win that fight.

His last few fights he has looked terrible.

nacho libre

Klitschko Points

snowflaker wrote: »

The Fury fight was awful. Klit was awful without any undue influence from Fury.

And are people forgetting Fury's failed drugs test? He was stripped of the belts, so why give him any credit? I mean do Lance Armstrong's TdF victories still count in your book?

In Lance Armstrong's case, it was simply the best cheat won. His main rival, for years, Ulrich, was also cheating. All of his main rivals were.

If Fury did cheat it may well have increased his stamina, but it did not suddenly make him a skillful boxer. Wlad was bad against Fury mainly because of how Fury boxed. If Fury had not boxed so well, Wlad would have been confident to throw, and done to Fury what he did to so many others.

Regarding Wlad not showing a killer instinct against Joshua, this overlooks Joshua actually using his head and making Wlad miss punches and block punches. I was proven wrong by Joshua. I think Wlad when he sees the fight will opt out of a rematch.

nacho libre

Klitschko Points

Lukker- wrote: »

There's no way of knowing really, Fury's excellent game plan also might have just totally nullified Wlad's strengths. .

That is exactly what happened, his timing and use of his reach was excellent- he wasn't there to be hit most of the time. He took away Wlad's jab.
The loss to Fury did motivate Klitschko, but i think Wlad felt more confident to throw against against Joshua because he did not present him with the awkward style of Fury, even though the risk if he was countered was much greater.

nacho libre

Klitschko Points

Lukker- wrote: »

His jab is definitely better than it was. Shot selection seems to have improved, as well as his head movement. His footwoork is much the same, basic plodding forward style and it'll be what costs him if he ever fights an in shape Fury. Fury has much better jab too.

If Fury had knock out power i would agree, it's an easy night for him, but he doesn't. I think no matter how slick Fury is in that fight, it's inevitable Joshua would still get to Fury at some stage. Fury has been knocked down by lesser punches than Joshua, so i wouldn't be confident of him withstanding a solid punch from a hard hitter like Joshua

Morrison J

Klitschko Points

People really overplay the featherfisted Fury thing. He can knockout any of the top heavyweights. He doesn't ice people but you don't stop a guy as tough as Chisora if you've zero power in your punches. The same guy who went the distance with Whyte (who had Joshua rocked).

walshb

Joshua Points

Fury with a solid beard would likely beat AJ on points or late stoppage in a competitive fight. For me there are just one too many instances of Fury being on queer steeet from much less heavy hitters than AJ.

Wlad with a solid beard would annihilate AJ. Wlad knows he is vulnerable, and it affects his offence. Wlad with a solid chin would be throwing much more spiteful shots.

Btw, Fury is not feather fished, but he doesn't instill confidence in me with his punch delivery and power.

I'm telling you..Wilder will be shown to be the real danger man. One clean shot to AJ and AJ won't make it. Same for Fury.

You could really see the size difference between Bellew and Wilder the other night.

nacho libre

Klitschko Points

Wilder is simply too crude to land something meaningful on Joshua before Joshua gets to him first. Wilder also has a suspect chin. He, as they say, has a punchers chance, but a half decent boxer easily negates that.

Fury simply does not have the power to deter Joshua from coming forward. When was the last time he knocked someone clean out?
Fury would likely be well ahead on points before being stopped. If only Vitali would announce he is coming out of retirement to avenge his brother's loss.
He certainly looked pissed off after the fight on Saturday.

walshb

Joshua Points

Come on...AJ is hardly sweet Pea. He can be tagged. I bet Wilder tags him. But, maybe AJ tags Wilder first. It's a toss up.

Btw, you say Fury would likely be well ahead on points before AJ gets him out of there. You think Fury avoids getting hit clean for a fair few rds? I reckon it's more an early job. Fury's chances really increase the longer it goes. Anyway, Fury has been yet again shut down by AJ via twitter. Just train and get back to your fighting weight!

selectamatic

Joshua Points

Morrison J wrote: »

People really overplay the featherfisted Fury thing. He can knockout any of the top heavyweights. He doesn't ice people but you don't stop a guy as tough as Chisora if you've zero power in your punches. The same guy who went the distance with Whyte (who had Joshua rocked).

If we're going to apply that logic though I'd like to chime in with Kevin Johnson. He has a very good chin he literally stood in front of fury and took anything fury could throw and it didn't knock a stir outta him. An entire crowd in Belfast were booing by the end of the farcical fight.

Joshua bombed him outta it in rd2.

Edit walshb beat me to it: Also on the wilder point yes he could very much bomb any heavyweight outta it but he himself is a ko waiting to happen. Eric Molina gave him a big scare.

Too Tough To Die

Klitschko Points

snowflaker wrote: »

The Fury fight was awful. Klit was awful without any undue influence from Fury.

And are people forgetting Fury's failed drugs test? He was stripped of the belts, so why give him any credit? I mean do Lance Armstrong's TdF victories still count in your book?

He wasn't stripped of the belts for testing positive for peds.

He was not champion when he supposedly tested positive, this was months before the Wlad fight, so possibly unlikely he was on anything for that fight, if he was on anything at all. Hearing for that is coming up next week, i believe.

qwabercd

Joshua KO

walshb wrote: »

What has that got to do with what I said?

He made Wlad look bad? I could just as easily reverse that and say that Wlad made Fury look bad...

Do you just nitpick and argue for the sake of it?

walshb

Joshua Points

qwabercd wrote: »

Do you just nitpick and argue for the sake of it?

No. I just call out BS when I see it...

Morrison J

Klitschko Points

selectamatic wrote: »

If we're going to apply that logic though I'd like to chime in with Kevin Johnson. He has a very good chin he literally stood in front of fury and took anything fury could throw and it didn't knock a stir outta him. An entire crowd in Belfast were booing by the end of the farcical fight.

Joshua bombed him outta it in rd2.

I'm not comparing Joshua and Fury's power though? I don't think anyone doubts Joshua has more of it.

Vitali couldn't knock Kevin Johnson out. Does that mean he has no power either? Using a heavyweight with probably the best chin of this generation is hardly a stick to beat Fury with.

ebbsy

Fury fight is ages away. Look at the state of him. Problem is he would need some warm up fights but they could only be against tomato cans. Couldn't risk it with his activity. Hardly proper preperation.

Joshua Ko early on I'd say.

Morrison J

Klitschko Points

The importance of head movement. Same punch, Fury rolls with the punch. AJ gets knocked on the canvas.

https://twitter.com/Boxspose/status/858717080601976832

Erik Shin

Joshua Points

Morrison J wrote: »

The importance of head movement. Same punch, Fury rolls with the punch. AJ gets knocked on the canvas.

https://twitter.com/Boxspose/status/858717080601976832

Fury doesn't half talk some rubbish

snowflaker

Joshua Points

Too Tough To Die wrote: »

He wasn't stripped of the belts for testing positive for peds.

He was not champion when he supposedly tested positive, this was months before the Wlad fight, so possibly unlikely he was on anything for that fight, if he was on anything at all. Hearing for that is coming up next week, i believe.

It's the appeal hearing

snowflaker

Joshua Points

Months before... to help with conditioning perhaps? Why else would he be on them? I love the way some are willing to turn a blind eye to all Fury's transgressions

Burial.

Klitschko Points

Enjoyable fight that. Wlad gave a great account of himself, and Joshua showed some serious bottle and heart to win the fight. A young Wlad would have thrown caution to the wind and finished Joshua when he was goosed I figure, can't believe he didn't see red with Joshua sprawled along the ropes with hands down. However credit must go to Joshua for recovering and getting it done. That uppercut was a peach. I can't root Joshua, because everything about him is what I hate most about Boxing, but kid has got heart.

I hope Wlad retires now, nothing to prove, he's got a good performance to bow out on, and he's still got his wits about him. As for Joshua, he'll learn from that but his weaknesses are as blaringly obvious as ever and as a HW I don't think he can eradicate them. Wilder would be a fun match up for how long it lasts, a case of who wants to go full retard the fastest. I'd think Wilder is very underrated, he aint half bad a boxer when needs be. Would also like to see fights with Fury and Ortiz, the two top guys at HW imo. A mentally sound and fit Fury would clown Joshua, but it's a coin flip if that is possible anymore. I think Ortiz destroys him if Joshua cannot fix his flaws, which I don't see happening. Ortiz looks a little pudgy on recent viewing but he's got everything and some to beat Joshua and if he hurts him once he'll finish him. Still cannot believe Wlad let him back into it, perhaps he was gassing a little too.

A side note: Carl Froch may be the worst analyst in the history of all sports.

nacho libre

Klitschko Points

walshb wrote: »

Come on...AJ is hardly sweet Pea. He can be tagged. I bet Wilder tags him. But, maybe AJ tags Wilder first. It's a toss up.

Btw, you say Fury would likely be well ahead on points before AJ gets him out of there. You think Fury avoids getting hit clean for a fair few rds? I reckon it's more an early job. Fury's chances really increase the longer it goes. Anyway, Fury has been yet again shut down by AJ via twitter. Just train and get back to your fighting weight!

Wilder has struggled to find his range with poor enough opposition, his ko power was the decisive factor in getting him out of trouble. Joshua will surely get to him first and end it. I'll be surprised if Wilder lasts more than 4 rounds. Fury, as he showed against Wlad, will not be there to be hit early on. He will makes Joshua fall short time and again. The problem being that Joshua will surely connect with something meaningful at some stage.
To be honest I'm not confident we will see Fury fight again anyway. You can't believe anything he says- it changes from one day to the next.

nacho libre

Klitschko Points

Morrison J wrote: »

The importance of head movement. Same punch, Fury rolls with the punch. AJ gets knocked on the canvas.

https://twitter.com/Boxspose/status/858717080601976832

I see what you mean. Fury steadies himself for it and rolls with it thus reducing the impact. As you say that clip shows Fury's superior skill right there. Joshua did show some head movement against Klitschko, but Fury is, and always will be, just naturally better at it.

walshb

Joshua Points

He didn't roll with the shot that Cunningham dropped him with. Picking out isolated incidents here and there means F all. Both Fury and AJ have their strengths and weaknesses. Skill is very difficult to define and batten down. Many traits and examples to look at, and different people lending more weight to one discipline over another.

In a nutshell. Punching and delivery-mechanics of punching AJ is more polished and skilled. Movement and feet and anticipation skills Fury is more skilled. That's called educated assessing.

But really it matters damn all. Because even if Fury does get ready and motivated, he may never be as effective as he was a couple of years ago, resulting in him probably getting blasted out of it.

walshb

Joshua Points

Oh, and I almost forgot. He didn't roll with the shot that he nearly knocked himself out with...some skill in that one.

nacho libre

Klitschko Points

walshb wrote: »

In a nutshell. Punching and delivery-mechanics of punching AJ is more polished and skilled. Movement and feet and anticipation skills Fury is more skilled. That's called educated assessing.

It matters a lot, and it's debatable whether AJ is better at delivering punches, he has more power no doubt, some skills are crucial to possess and having them can determine the outcome of fights. If it was not so, then assessing a fighters ability and his chances of winning would become redunant. Fury may have been dropped by Cunnigham due to being careless. What you overlook is that he showed good defensive skills when it really mattered against the top unbeaten fighter at the time in Wlad. The reality is he not had displayed these skills he would have been knocked out. As it transpired Wlad was so scared of missing and being countered he refused to let his hands go. It wasn't that Wlad had a bad night of his own volition , he was made to have one.

qwabercd

Joshua KO

walshb wrote: »

No. I just call out BS when I see it...

Ok, I take your point. My opinion was complete BS, you were right as always.

section4

nacho libre wrote: »

It matters a lot, and it's debatable whether AJ is better at delivering punches, he has more power no doubt, some skills are crucial to possess and having them can determine the outcome of fights. If it was not so, then assessing a fighters ability and his chances of winning would become redunant. Fury may have been dropped by Cunnigham due to being careless. What you overlook is that he showed good defensive skills when it really mattered against the top unbeaten fighter at the time in Wlad. The reality is he not had displayed these skills he would have been knocked out. As it transpired Wlad was so scared of missing and being countered he refused to let his hands go. It wasn't that Wlad had a bad night of his own volition , he was made to have one.

Wlad was never a one punch knockout artist, hejust kept pecking till you were vulnerable and then finished you off, I was surprised how badly he hurt Joshua that early in the fight especially when you consider Joshua had him down in the previous round and wlad is 41years of age, the most significant factors in this fight.
It was plain to see he was fighting well for a 41 year old but looking slow and laboured, that he was ab,e to hurt Joshua at all dies not bode well.
The only time Joshua looked effective was when he came forwRd and threw bursts of punches but he couldn't sustain then over a minute if he could he should have had wlad out in the first but he wasn't able to.

All that happened was that Joshua outlasted a slower much older man, it wasn't that Joshua recovered he is after all 27 and any 27 year old will recover if left alone for a few rounds as wlad did after knocking him down because he quite simply did not have the energy or speed to punch him enough because if his age .

Joshua looks worse after this fight not better
He reminds me of frank Bruno

walshb

Joshua Points

qwabercd wrote: »

Ok, I take your point. My opinion was complete BS, you were right as always.

On the road to recovery. Fair play to you.

ebbsy

Morrison J wrote: »

Ranking relevant heavyweights.

1. Fury
2. Joshua
3. Klitschko
4. Ortiz
5. Parker
6. Povetkin
7. Wilder
8. Pulev

I would have Joshua at the top, until he is defeated by Fury. The real worry for me is that a half fit and unprepared Fury rushes into it.

If he does I will be down the bookies ploughing in on the first few rounds.

Too Tough To Die

Klitschko Points

snowflaker wrote: »

Months before... to help with conditioning perhaps? Why else would he be on them? I love the way some are willing to turn a blind eye to all Fury's transgressions

Not turning a blind eye, simply stating the fact that it was before the Klitschko fight, so won't affect the outcome. The result of that fight will not be overturned. Also, at least to my mind it makes it very likely he wasn't on anything against Wlad, making it an extra impressive win.

Morrison J

Klitschko Points

walshb wrote: »

He didn't roll with the shot that Cunningham dropped him with. Picking out isolated incidents here and there means F all. Both Fury and AJ have their strengths and weaknesses. Skill is very difficult to define and batten down. Many traits and examples to look at, and different people lending more weight to one discipline over another.

In a nutshell. Punching and delivery-mechanics of punching AJ is more polished and skilled. Movement and feet and anticipation skills Fury is more skilled. That's called educated assessing.

walshb wrote: »

Oh, and I almost forgot. He didn't roll with the shot that he nearly knocked himself out with...some skill in that one.

Picking out isolated incidents means **** all, yet you picked out two isolated incidents...

It was just an example of how Fury uses head movement far more effectively than Joshua. I don't see the problem to be honest. It's fairly clear.

walshb

Joshua Points

Yes, picked out to disprove your points, and to show how they mean F all..

I shouldn't have had to explain this.

selectamatic

Joshua Points

Morrison J wrote: »

I'm not comparing Joshua and Fury's power though? I don't think anyone doubts Joshua has more of it.

No but you still added the little nugget about Joshua and whyte in at the end of your initial post hence my rebuttal. Chisora's corner pulled him as he was eating jabs and was running outta steam with no hope of landing anything significant if fury had the power you are alluding to he'd have stopped him properly in the 8th or 9th.

Strawmanning about vitali is pointless too as it was you not I who entered into this flawed logic of X "stopped" Y who narrowly lost to A who challenged C, therefore X beats C.

Look your a knowledgeable guy when it comes to boxing and you contribute a hell of a lot more than I do to this forum but I cant help but feel your posts regarding fury and Aj are clouded by emotion.

vetinari

Regards the first 4 rounds, if you look at the punch stats
http://www.boxingscene.com/anthony-joshua-vs-wladimir-klitschko-compubox-punch-stats--116148
I don't see how you can give Wlad any more than one of those rounds and even that is generous.
Definitely a case of people watching different fights, I personally have no idea how people scored some of those rounds for Wlad.

Morrison J

Klitschko Points

walshb wrote: »

Yes, picked out to disprove your points, and to show how they mean F all..

I shouldn't have had to explain this.

Hardly means F all though. It's an example of how Fury has superior head movement, which he does. You're actively looking for a bone to pick.

walshb

Joshua Points

Morrison J wrote: »

Hardly means F all though. It's an example of how Fury has superior head movement, which he does. You're actively looking for a bone to pick.

No. I am simply saying that picking out isolated incidents means F all.

I don't disagree that Fury has better head-body movement.

I do think that you are overrating Fury's chances and underrating AJs..

A Fury win would be no surprise. He is a big and talented man.

I happen to think the combination of his chin and IMO, quite ordinary power sees him lose.

Morrison J

Klitschko Points

selectamatic wrote: »

No but you still added the little nugget about Joshua and whyte in at the end of your initial post hence my rebuttal. Chisora's corner pulled him as he was eating jabs and was running outta steam with no hope of landing anything significant if fury had the power you are alluding to he'd have stopped him properly in the 8th or 9th.

Strawmanning about vitali is pointless too as it was you not I who entered into this flawed logic of X "stopped" Y who narrowly lost to A who challenged C, therefore X beats C.

Look your a knowledgeable guy when it comes to boxing and you contribute a hell of a lot more than I do to this forum but I cant help but feel your posts regarding fury and Aj are clouded by emotion.

I just don't understand you bringing Joshua's power into the argument. I've never doubted Joshua's power.

Chisora's face was in tatters to be fair. He was clearly hurt and wanted no more.

I'm not alluding to Fury being some kind of monster puncher. I'm just saying Fury's power is nowhere near as bad as most make out. I've seen him called featherfisted on here so many times. He has 18 stoppages. If he caught Wlad flush in Germany he could've rocked him, he can rock Joshua. I've no doubt about both those facts.

Morrison J

Klitschko Points

walshb wrote: »

No. I am simply saying that picking out isolated incidents means F all.

I don't disagree that Fury has better head-body movement.

I do think that you are overrating Fury's chances and underrating AJs..

A Fury win would be no surprise. He is a big and talented man.

I happen to think the combination of his chin and IMO, quite ordinary power sees him lose.

It's an example. We all know there are plenty more incidents out there too which proves the point has substance.

Joshua is always 10 seconds away from beating anyone. I don't have any doubts about that fact.

What are you basing Fury's weak chin on anyway? An isolated incident against Cunningham? I've seen little evidence of it. Always shown really good recuperative powers for me.

Joeseph Balls

Joshua Points

Morrison J wrote: »

I just don't understand you bringing Joshua's power into the argument. I've never doubted Joshua's power.

Chisora's face was in tatters to be fair. He was clearly hurt and wanted no more.

I'm not alluding to Fury being some kind of monster puncher. I'm just saying Fury's power is nowhere near as bad as most make out. I've seen him called featherfisted on here so many times. He has 18 stoppages. If he caught Wlad flush in Germany he could've rocked him, he can rock Joshua. I've no doubt about both those facts.

I agree.
I don't think it's fair to call any proper heavyweight featherfisted. Imo Fury does lack that 1 punch power that the likes of AJ and wilder have. I think if AJ and Fury fought, it wouldn't be a surprise if Fury won on points, but I think 12 rounds is a long time to not get tagged by AJ.

ebbsy

vetinari wrote: »

Regards the first 4 rounds, if you look at the punch stats
http://www.boxingscene.com/anthony-joshua-vs-wladimir-klitschko-compubox-punch-stats--116148
I don't see how you can give Wlad any more than one of those rounds and even that is generous.
Definitely a case of people watching different fights, I personally have no idea how people scored some of those rounds for Wlad.

Have to agree. Vlad didn't more than one of those 4 rounds and didn't win 7 or 8 either.

walshb

Joshua Points

Only watched the fight once, and for me several rds were very difficult to score, hence an argument could me made for a wide disparity in the scoring.

Morrison J

Klitschko Points

It's quite amazing comparing the punch stats that Wlad threw only 25 more punches than in the Fury fight. Felt like so many more than that.

walshb

Joshua Points

I made the point that there were plenty of lulls in the fight. Full of action when they went for it, but there was more sussing each other out.

StringerBell

Agreed,plenty of nip and tuck rounds and a couple of really explosive moments

Joshua KO

I have been a big fan of Fury for years ever since he talked up his Irish Connections when he was fighting that taxi driver from belfast :P But asking people here who are knowledgable in boxing, do ye think Fury has a good chin? Has he been knocked down?

Morrison J

Klitschko Points

Deleted User wrote: »

I have been a big fan of Fury for years ever since he talked up his Irish Connections when he was fighting that taxi driver from belfast :P But asking people here who are knowledgable in boxing, do ye think Fury has a good chin? Has he been knocked down?

Most people on here seem to believe he is. I don't see any real evidence. He's been down twice in his career. Both flash knockdowns where he recovered quickly. His head has never touched the canvas.

Morrison J

Klitschko Points

walshb wrote: »

Only watched the fight once, and for me several rds were very difficult to score, hence an argument could me made for a wide disparity in the scoring.

I felt like the first two rounds were the only real difficult ones. I gave them to Wlad on ring generalship but could see an argument to give at least one to Joshua.

I had Wlad clearly winning the 4th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 10th.
Joshua clearly won the 3rd, 5th, 9th, 11th.

5th being the only other contentious one whether you score it 10-9 or 10-8 to Joshua.