READ MOD WARNING POST #1 BEFORE POSTING- Joshua Vs Klitschko

blade1

Joshua Points

Too Tough To Die wrote: »

AJ was clueless and backed away with his chin in the air.

And that's why i feel that shot done him more good than harm.
Put him in a position he was never in before.
He should have learnt something from it.

megadodge

Draw

For those posters talking about Vlad's "killer instinct", could you please give an example where the instant he had someone even slightly in trouble he finished him off? He absolutely does NOT do quick finishes!! He just wears down people. How many times did we see Manny Steward frustratedly urging him to finish it in the corner, for round after round.

You people obviously have very short memories or haven't watched Vlad for the past 12 years.

One of the above posts states that photo was the first time they saw a look of fear on Vlad's face!! Are you serious? I've never seen any top-level boxer in history consistently look so scared as Vlad. Once anybody gets inside he grabs and holds for dear life and has a look of pure panic on his face. This happens in an awful lot of his fights.

I'm not saying Vlad has no chance, of course he does. His footwork alone is so good, there's a strong possiblity Joshua could end up over-extending with a lot of his punches as Vlad's subtle little step backs have always seen him keep out of range. My big question mark is his very obvious fear of getting hit. He has been super-cautious against even average punchers, so how is he going to be against a hard puncher like Joshua? That's the key for me. Vlad's not a counter-puncher, he likes to set the pace and dictate the terms of the contest, but I think Joshua won't give him the respect he normally gets and will force a pace Vlad is not comfortable with and possibly put Vlad into that super-cautious mode that makes him so frustrating to watch.

nacho libre

Klitschko Points

I've been watching Wlad since he started. I don't think i've ever said he was like Tyson in his approach. His approach since Manny took over was to systematically break down fighters by keeping them at range through his jab combined with his elusive skills. There is no doubt he will be very scared of Joshua's power, but i believe he has the ability to negate it, through his skill and experience, even at 41. Joshua has looked good against poor opposition who were there to be hit. He will finally be facing a fighter who uses his skill set very well to avoid trouble. Klitschko will find Joshua far easier to hit than he did Fury. If it goes as i think it will, Joshua will be caught coming in with hurtful shots due to his inferior footwork and head movement.

walshb

Joshua Points

Very good analysis and argument for Wlad, nacho!

MotherTeresa

Draw

Interesting interview with Joshua, where he talks about Klitschko's expected technique. Note he is careful not to reveal his own game plan. But it's clear he has thought through how to cope with Klitschko's defensive style, and keeping out of his range.
Another thing I have noted in recent pictures is his neck size has really built up. I think he has been planning on taking some jabs from Klitschko and surviving. Maybe he learned something from when Whyte rocked him, and felt the need to build his neck up more to cope with heavy shots. The vibe I am getting is that he is relaxed and quietly confident about winning, and that is a good sign.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WBJEuy4uOc

MotherTeresa

Draw

Look at his neck build up in this recent training camp picture. It's definitely thicker than before.
Also he is looking the heaviest I have seen him. The weigh in will be interesting, as I think he will come in well above Klitschko's weight. Many people have said his extra muscle mass will mean he gasses sooner due to the increased oxygen demand.
But I think of it this way, say he has an extra 5-10 KG muscle mass over Klitschko, then every jab or hook thrown will have more weight and power behind it. Say Klitschko does grab and hold him, and then push him down and back; when its say 110KG v 120KG, the heavier man pushes the lighter man back. And in Klitschko's case it will be into the ropes or corner.
Joshua is usually around 106KG, and Klitschko around 112KG, so they are close for the same height. But looking at Joshua now, he is looking more like 120KG. I am looking forward to the weigh in to see if he cuts it down, or keeps that bulk for the fight.
Also Marius Wach (his sparring partner pictured) went 12 rounds and lost to Klitschko on a points decison in 2012; so he is an ideal sparring partner.
At 6 feet 8" he is a tough man to spar. Apparently he put Joshua down sparring in training. But looking at his size I think that is to be expected!
Wach failed a doping test after losing a world heavyweight title fight against Wladimir Klitschko. He admitted to doping in the bout against Klitschko and got sanctioned by the Federation of German Professional Boxing, but said that he plans to continue his career no matter how harsh the penalties are.

MotherTeresa

Draw

Here is a Wach's finest hour. Round 5 and he rocks Klitschko. For the fanboys note Klitschko at his peak in 2012, and now contrast that to what you saw against Jennings, and Fury respectively. From 35-41 he has declined due to age. 2012 Klitschko compared to 2017 Klitschko is like night and day. I think some of you are thinking its a 2012 version that will be fighting on the 29th; but the reality is he is fighting father time at 41. Had it been Joshua he was facing in 2012 not Wach, then he would have annihilated him. But his speed and timing just isn't what it was. 15 months of inactivity just adds to the decline.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JctiLVvqeQ

MotherTeresa

Draw

I think this is what Klitschko is getting on the 29th. OK Joshua's footwork isn't the best, but his head movement isn't walking onto Klitschko's jab. He avoided plenty of Whyte's punches with good head movement.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HikeSwTwBVc

walshb

Joshua Points

I think one thing is for sure. Win or lose, AJ will not fight scared. He will come to throw punches with spite and intent. So really the questions need to be asked of Wlad. Is he up for a battle? Because I don't think a gun shy negative-cautious approach will see him win.

It may buy him time, but it won't really deter AJ, or beat AJ. Wlad needs to be committed when he lets the hands go, if he lets them go! This will not be a 12 rds jabbing contest.

megadodge

Draw

MotherTeresa wrote: »

Apparently he put Joshua down sparring in training.

A good source told me Walshb knocked Joshua out cold for three days in sparring, just after megadodge had softened him up.

Joshua hasn't denied it.

Either did Walshb.

Eddie Hearn probably paid Walshb a 'silence' fee (hopefully), but then leaked it himself, so he can get a sellout crowd in Croke Park this summer and pocket millions from all the fools who can't see through this bum.


:rolleyes:

nacho libre

Klitschko Points

megadodge wrote: »

A good source told me Walshb knocked Joshua out cold for three days in sparring, just after megadodge had softened him up.

Joshua hasn't denied it.

Either did Walshb.

Eddie Hearn probably paid Walshb a 'silence' fee (hopefully), but then leaked it himself, so he can get a sellout crowd in Croke Park this summer and pocket millions from all the fools who can't see through this bum.


:rolleyes:

Of course you just couldn't give your old forum sparring partner walshb all the credit:p

megadodge

Draw

nacho libre wrote: »

Of course you just couldn't give your old forum sparring partner walshb all the credit:p

Jaysus, I gave him the KO!!

What more could he ask for?

x PyRo

Klitschko Points

https://twitter.com/BoxingBritain1/status/852527484872646659

Frank Bullitt

Joshua KO

Fight week.

Blanco100

Wlad to stop Joshua in the late rounds is my shout. I think Joshua will be extremely frustrated by even a gun shy Wlad. His refusal to engage will drive Joshua mad, and force him to over extend. And Wlad more "economical" approach will see him land the shots he needs to do damage.

I know alot of people don't subscribe to the same train of thought on here, but I think Joshua will be proven to have a weak chin. He will more than likely still go on to have an excellent career as a heavyweight but i'd give him full credit if he can beat even this version of Wlad Klitschko.

People talk about him being washed up and not looking the same fighter v Fury. He always looked gun shy and cautious, he just didn't know what to do with Fury's evasive style coupled with head movement was the main issue. Fury didn't have to over extend in order to land a jab like Wlad's other opponents usually did.

I fully expect to see Joshua show some decent head movement (unlike in his previous fights) in the first 4 or 5 rounds before he reverts to type and he will be stopped himself when he he is hurt going for the KO.

Henno30

Joshua Points

Blanco100 wrote: »

Wlad to stop Joshua in the late rounds is my shout. I think Joshua will be extremely frustrated by even a gun shy Wlad. His refusal to engage will drive Joshua mad, and force him to over extend. And Wlad more "economical" approach will see him land the shots he needs to do damage.

I know alot of people don't subscribe to the same train of thought on here, but I think Joshua will be proven to have a weak chin. He will more than likely still go on to have an excellent career as a heavyweight but i'd give him full credit if he can beat even this version of Wlad Klitschko.

People talk about him being washed up and not looking the same fighter v Fury. He always looked gun shy and cautious, he just didn't know what to do with Fury's evasive style coupled with head movement was the main issue. Fury didn't have to over extend in order to land a jab like Wlad's other opponents usually did.

I fully expect to see Joshua show some decent head movement (unlike in his previous fights) in the first 4 or 5 rounds before he reverts to type and he will be stopped himself when he he is hurt going for the KO.

Can definitely see that argument. Joshua's upper body stiffness and lack of head movement, combined with relatively clumsy feet, is a big problem against a massive puncher like Wlad. If he gets caught with a short left hook early and his legs turn to jelly, I wouldn't be shocked.

The flip side is that Wlad is 41 and has been out of the ring for 18 months. And although Fury is the anti-Joshua, he still gave Wlad openings and opportunities that Wlad was visibly unable to pursue.

If Wlad was too afraid to take those risks against a light puncher like Fury, I cannot for the life of me see him taking any chances whatsoever against Joshua. He's not used to AJ's size, his speed, or his athleticism generally. He's used to being bigger and to clinching in any situation where he wasn't 100% comfortable.

He's smarter than AJ, more skillful, and more experienced than AJ is ever likely to be. But he won't be able to bully him or physically wear him down in my opinion. He will need a knockout and even with AJ's greenness he'll have to take real risks to get it. I don't see him taking those risks.

Blanco100

Henno30 wrote: »

Can definitely see that argument. Joshua's upper body stiffness and lack of head movement, combined with relatively clumsy feet, is a big problem against a massive puncher like Wlad. If he gets caught with a short left hook early and his legs turn to jelly, I wouldn't be shocked.

The flip side is that Wlad is 41 and has been out of the ring for 18 months. And although Fury is the anti-Joshua, he still gave Wlad openings and opportunities that Wlad was visibly unable to pursue.

If Wlad was too afraid to take those risks against a light puncher like Fury, I cannot for the life of me see him taking any chances whatsoever against Joshua. He's not used to AJ's size, his speed, or his athleticism generally. He's used to being bigger and to clinching in any situation where he wasn't 100% comfortable.

He's smarter than AJ, more skillful, and more experienced than AJ is ever likely to be. But he won't be able to bully him or physically wear him down in my opinion. He will need a knockout and even with AJ's greenness he'll have to take real risks to get it. I don't see him taking those risks.

I don't think he will need to take risks in order to KO AJ. He will find alot more openings than he did against Fury, who despite his limitations offensively, deliberately set out to be awkward to find.

Joshua in my view is completely untested and it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to see him completely seize up when he feels the first straight right hand landing for instance. We know how he will reacts to an opponent who he can hit at will with limited scope of reprisal. He is so used to walking forward and tagging an overmatched opponent at will. We have no idea how he will react how he will react when this isn't possible and the potential reprisal is a hard straight right or left hook that can put his lights out.

I think Klitschko even at 41 will pose him huge problems. A guy who has always been cautious in his defence and economical/calculating with his offence. Yet he still has a massive KO win percentage. Against alot of bums people may say, but the likes of Pulev, Povetkin, Jennings, Chagaev and even Haye have proven alot more than Anthony Joshua has. And he has dealt with them all.

Whilst its perfectly valid to question whether father time has caught up with him, I think too much emphasis is put on this as the reason Wlad lost to Fury. Fury was awkward, had a reach advantage and was slippy as f*ck for Wlad to deal with. He is not used to having to go looking for his opponent let alone someone with Fury's dimensions.

But he will not have to go looking for Joshua, that much is certain and it takes a massive leap of faith to buy into the narrative that AJ can beat Klitschko. Fair dues to AJ for taking this fight, there were easier guys to go after, Parker, Haye or even Wilder in my opinion. If he can beat the wily old fox no matter what version of him, it will be a massive statement and AJ would deserve full credit but I just don't see him being able to live with the power when it inevitably lands, even sparringly.

StringerBell

Its a decent argument, but I can not shake the images of the numerous times Wlad did have Tyson there to hit and simply refused to let his hands go.

Its not like Fury was putting on a masterclass and avoiding shots, Wald was getting into position to strike, good angles to strike, but refused to let his fists go. He has not faced an opponent like AJ for a long time and it will be fascinating to see if he can withstand what will surely be AJ going for the win in the middle rounds after feeling each other out initially. Once AJ starts to walk him down I am still leaning to him finding his chin well enough to take him out.

I hope we see a good performance from Klit, and I hope it bring out something we have not seen yet in Joshua.

Henno30

Joshua Points

Would everyone agree that AJ winning is the best thing for the sport? Despite the tsunami of horse**** that will follow from Sky and elsewhere, a win for AJ will give us the first exciting and very marketable heavyweight champion for what has felt like an eternity.

Wlad winning with retirement around the corner will cast a shadow over the heavyweight division for another 5-10 years I think. It will feel like we’re stuck with leftovers.

Gamebred

Whatever about AJ's body shape and body builder physique Wlad has veins popping out of him every where hes in crazy condition must be some good protein hes on himself,

At 2/1 underdog Wlad has to be backed here against the hype job who had trouble with Whyte.

Sweet Science

The head says AJ ( im still not convinced of him )

However i'll have a sneaky bet on Wlad late finish.

In order to do this I don't think it will be his jab,footwork experience or defense. He simply has to let his hands go early and get AJ to respect his power . He has to make AJ hesitate . That's what has me fascinated . Can he do it at 41 ? Has he ever won a fight like that ?

In my opinion its the only way for him to win.

Too Tough To Die

Klitschko Points

Sweet Science wrote: »

The head says AJ ( im still not convinced of him )

However i'll have a sneaky bet on Wlad late finish.

In order to do this I don't think it will be his jab,footwork experience or defense. He simply has to let his hands go early and get AJ to respect his power . He has to make AJ hesitate . That's what has me fascinated . Can he do it at 41 ? Has he ever won a fight like that ?

In my opinion its the only way for him to win.

He was very aggressive very early against Pulev. I think in this he's better off being cautious early on, establish the jab and frustrate AJ, see how reacts in a position he's never been in before. From there, draw the mistake and end him in the mid rounds.

walshb

Joshua Points

I think the longer Wlad waits to find openings the more risk he puts himself in in getting knocked out. He needs to go out and test AJs chin early. Who knows, the fits clean shot he lands could see him end it. AJ should fight more aggressively, and with his height and reach and power I feel Wald cannot afford to be wasting time and hoping that he takes AJ to the late rds.

Sweet Science

walshb wrote: »

I think the longer Wlad waits to find openings the more risk he puts himself in in getting knocked out. He needs to go out and test AJs chin early. Who knows, the fits clean shot he lands could see him end it. AJ should fight more aggressively, and with his height and reach and power I feel Wald cannot afford to be wasting time and hoping that he takes AJ to the late rds.

He needs to land early IMO to take it to the late rounds . As you said if he is cautious AJ will walk him down . Give AJ something to think about make him hesitate , take it to the championship rounds.

Gamebred

AJ hasnt improved one bit since his pro debut, its the same basic shots nothing new to his game, he will be found out the weekend and improve off the back off a loss.

Sweet Science

Gamebred wrote: »

AJ hasnt improved one bit since his pro debut, its the same basic shots nothing new to his game, he will be found out the weekend and improve off the back off a loss.

Possibly so

Blanco100

Sweet Science wrote: »

The head says AJ ( im still not convinced of him )

However i'll have a sneaky bet on Wlad late finish.

In order to do this I don't think it will be his jab,footwork experience or defense. He simply has to let his hands go early and get AJ to respect his power . He has to make AJ hesitate . That's what has me fascinated . Can he do it at 41 ? Has he ever won a fight like that ?

In my opinion its the only way for him to win.

Klitschko's power goes without saying, to infer AJ (who has only ever been caught flush once since turning pro) will need some convincing to respect his power is laughable. His sheer inexperience will see him hesistate at this level, not to mention taking into account his opponents record of KO's.

If anything, its going to be very interesting to see how effective AJ will be in the later rounds, its completely uncharted territory for him, let alone against someone with Wlad's pedigree.

I just don't see how people are talking up AJ so much, he is talented yes. But its a leap of faith to claim he is some monster heavyweight alot of people are saying he is, well thats very much wishful thinking I reckon, and its really a hell of a job Eddie Hearn and Co have done in bigging him up.

He is COMPLETELY untested at the highest level. He has never been 12 rounds and he has nobody of note on his record thus far. Thats the fact of the matter.

AJ is not the first fighter who will try and pour it onto Wlad and come out all guns blazing. In doing that you leave yourself open to being floored yourself. To win Joshua needs to be smart and we have zero indication of whether he has the brain to execute the plan he would need to be victorious.

I think Wlad will make him look very green, he will land alot on Wlads gloves that will stir the crowd but I think we will see AJ cut a very frustrated figure come the late rounds, before he is KO'd. Its the only result I can see.

Nothing I have seen from Joshua suggests otherwise. Regardless of what version of Wlad we see. As boring as he is, he has barely been hit himself in 10 years yet people can only see Joshua knocking him spark out? Its nonsense

Blanco100

Sweet Science wrote: »

He needs to land early IMO to take it to the late rounds . As you said if he is cautious AJ will walk him down . Give AJ something to think about make him hesitate , take it to the championship rounds.

How do you come to this conclusion?

Completely baffled that AJ is the favourite here. Better fighters than Joshua have fallen way short against Wlad yet you think AJ can "walk him down"? Based on what exactly?

Give AJ something to think about? I'd imagine the lad has alot to think about, fighting in front of 90k fans most of whom don't have a clue and are expecting him to make light work of a guy who has made a career out of not getting hit the last 10 years whilst also building up one of the most impression KO ratios of heavyweight boxing history.

Not having a pop, just genuinely curious.

walshb

Joshua Points

I think people are bigging AJ up for a couple of reasons, and none to do with him being great. One, he is big/strong and very heavy handed. 2. Wlad's chin for many is a little too unreliable (he just does not react well when hit hard, and he has been knocked out before, and so what that it was many years ago, the vulnerabilities are likely still there). I think they are valid reasons. I honestly do believe that IF AJ connects flush with a power shot he will take Wlad out. So, to really think AJ could win is far from odd....

Edit. This is not fence sitting, but Wald winning is also far from odd. It's that kind of match-up!

Sweet Science

Blanco100 wrote: »

How do you come to this conclusion?

Completely baffled that AJ is the favourite here. Better fighters than Joshua have fallen way short against Wlad yet you think AJ can "walk him down"? Based on what exactly?

Give AJ something to think about? I'd imagine the lad has alot to think about, fighting in front of 90k fans most of whom don't have a clue and are expecting him to make light work of a guy who has made a career out of not getting hit the last 10 years whilst also building up one of the most impression KO ratios of heavyweight boxing history.

Not having a pop, just genuinely curious.

This is based off Wlads last performance . If he performs like that again and barely throws a punch how can he win the fight ?

That fight suggested he is finished it was such an awful display from him . This fight is 18 months later again.

I'm not basing it off Wlads career.