Replacement alarm install

Wossack

hi folks

Looking for advice. Have been lurking around here for a good while, and had intended on doing a DIY install of a Siemens SPC set up. It got put on the long finger, but we've gotten a bit of a wake up call the other day (raft of burglaries in the area), so would like it done professionally asap..

Had somewhat settled on the SPC, as I liked the webserver/remote access functionality, and the home automation integration (would like lighting controls), and the overall flexibility/expandability the system offers with combined wireless/wired etc.

I may add IP cameras down the line

Should I be considering any other systems?

Can anyone recommend any southside installers?

Any general advice when talking to them? ideally dont want to get bamboozled..

PS We have an existing wired scopetronic that i'd like pulled out

KoolKid

My advice would be get out at least 3 licenced installers to do you out a proper system design proposal. Tell them what you want and why. Don't entertain guys who want to install the system they want.
Get all quotes and specifications in writing. This is a psa requirement. Also ask what's covered in costs and future service and maintenance charges etc. Make sure the cost includes taking down the old equipment. Most will, but some won't.

Wossack

Thanks for that KoolKid, much appreciated!

Anyone have any recommendations for installers? I was impressed by the work done on the wired alarm in my parents house, so Ill get him out, but wouldnt mind a couple others (as above)

judge30

There is a list at the top of the thread with registered installers also you can check out the contractor list on the psa website

KoolKid

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055956748

Wossack

how up to date is that list? couldnt find cuala security ltd on the psa website, for example. And their own website doesnt appear to have been updated since 2013(?)

KoolKid

Are you looking at the right PSA register.
http://www.psa.gov.ie/en/PSA/1A.-Register-of-Contractor-Licensees-(AllSectors).pdf/Files/1A.-Register-of-Contractor-Licensees-(AllSectors).pdf

Listed here OK.

Stoner

Wossack wrote:

Had somewhat settled on the SPC, as I liked the webserver/remote access functionality, and the home automation integration (would like lighting controls), and the overall flexibility/expandability the system offers with combined wireless/wired etc.

Tbh the Siemens panel is good, but I wouldn't bother with it for controls.

I had a decent set up but there is a lot more you can do now with Philips hue, Nest and lightwaverf etc

When I had it it was all X10 controls for power and lights and the Siemens panel at the time only handled on off control . That was fine for me but some love dimming but that was not an option for me at the time

You might be better having and lights and power on a different platform

Check if Siemens are planning to start to charge in the future for the app. Just a check its fee atm.

Anyway I prefer the control I have after dropping the Siemens control. It was the best by far from what I saw out there for control via intruder alarms and using pirs etc as inputs was great in theory as I could turn the heating off of windows were open. But the AI and device costs for other specialist systems ones that are compatible with the IFTTT app are now superior imo.


I've had both. Others are leading the way here imo. Although they are decent alarm systems

KoolKid

Siemens/Vanderbilt have stated over and over the app will always be free. Also the fact that they have not, unlike others, blocked direct IP access enforces this, I believe.

Wossack

KoolKid wrote: »

Are you looking at the right PSA register.
http://www.psa.gov.ie/en/PSA/1A.-Register-of-Contractor-Licensees-(AllSectors).pdf/Files/1A.-Register-of-Contractor-Licensees-(AllSectors).pdf

Listed here OK.

thanks for that - they werent showing up on the search (https://www.psa.gov.ie/en/PSA/webContract?OpenForm) for whatever reason. PDF is much handier, thanks

Stoner wrote: »

Tbh the Siemens panel is good, but I wouldn't bother with it for controls.

I had a decent set up but there is a lot more you can do now with Philips hue, Nest and lightwaverf etc

When I had it it was all X10 controls for power and lights and the Siemens panel at the time only handled on off control . That was fine for me but some love dimming but that was not an option for me at the time

You might be better having and lights and power on a different platform

Check if Siemens are planning to start to charge in the future for the app. Just a check its fee atm.

Anyway I prefer the control I have after dropping the Siemens control. It was the best by far from what I saw out there for control via intruder alarms and using pirs etc as inputs was great in theory as I could turn the heating off of windows were open. But the AI and device costs for other specialist systems ones that are compatible with the IFTTT app are now superior imo.


I've had both. Others are leading the way here imo. Although they are decent alarm systems

My intention is to use the lundix spc api to tie the alarm into another home automation hub, rather then it being the hub itself. Still researching that aspect though..
Quite pleased with the Siemens android app, which Ive downloaded and have been playing around with (it has a demo mode)

do you have any other recommendations as to systems I might also consider?

at the moment, Im very tempted to have a go myself - theres a lot of functional, albeit messy wiring from the old alarm that may be reusable. Looks like 6 core to the windows at least. Again though, still researching (the ASAP element from my original post is waning :P)

Stoner

Wossack wrote:

do you have any other recommendations as to systems I might also consider?

I think for this that there are a few things to consider.

One using the pirs to turn off the boiler is a good idea but how often would it run. The water still circulates afterwards so really you want the rad beside the open door to turn off. You still loose heat as long as the pump circulates hot water around. So the pirs are handy for turning on lights etc but really you end up making these things more complicated than it needs to be.

For this you need a powered TVR . The heating in the house would remain on but not the rad by the open window or door.

I'm not sure that using alarm contacts and tvrs is easy to do.

I gave up on the Siemens panel as a hub too. Although the web interface is handy.

The calenders on the Siemens app were great I had a heating calendar and a Christmas lights calendar both turning on power devices by X10.

Now I have Google calendars linked to lightwaverf, but I just use the lightwaverf calandar.

Before the Siemens app was available I had a little app made to turn on the heating and different x10 devices. You can also text the Siemens panel if you have a sim card installed. So you could text the heating on and off.

I don't think Siemens have any stats or similar so you are limited to on off control.

Yet all this imo is better handled outside of the panel now. Apart from linking the alarm to Turing on security lights I think one of the many home AV solutions are better .

The AI in nests or the voice control from amazon echo or Google home or the apple offering are all imo going towards a better place than the security alarm industry

I don't think the linkage is really all that good. I never really used it.

I'd also personally stay away from all the raspberry pi solutions they get expensive as you add on interfaces, some of the interfaces cost the same as a hub anyway and some take up a lot of the functionality of the pi. You and only fit one per our in some cases, I know a guy with 6 in his house.

The cameras and intruder on one Siemens system is handy alright as it's there on one app.

The X10 sockets and switches are ugly too. Lightwaverf have nice accessories, Philips hue have nice light switches etc.
The IFTTT app has liked a lot of these systems from systems to system to app to system etc.

If you haven't seen this have a look at it.

fergalom

I would second a Siemens system.
Using the lundix gateway software on a Rpi, you get access to all your contacts and pirs for various functions in your Home-automation.

Re the HA - I would disagree with Stoner, Vera / Fibaro hubs are overpriced and you can achieve the same thing with one Rpi2 and a zwave expansion board.

There are many HA software options out there such as Domoticz, OpenHAB, home assistant etc.

I find Domotiz the best and use it to:

• Central Heating Control
• Immersion
• Lights
• IP cameras
• Using pirs from Siemens system to action lights / heating
• Arming alarm via phone NFC to Siemens keypad
• Geofence turning on heating
• Music / radio streams to airplay devices
• Oil tank level / water / electricity usage
• Bonus feature is a bridge to Apple Homekit which allows turning on heating etc through Siri. (Domoticz android app can do similar)
• etc.

Obviously you dont actually need any of this but it is handy!

On the heating front, a typical 2 zoned system is cheap to implement. (Nest also an option here)

But if you go down the route of TRVs on rads and presence detection, consider Honeywell Evohome

Zwave hardware is worth the cost for thermostats / boiler / immersion control but the rest is easily done without much expense.

DublinDilbert

+1 for SPC. For home automation using DIY X10 to 433MHz bridge now a couple of years, can't fault it.

Stoner

fergalom wrote:

Re the HA - I would disagree with Stoner, Vera / Fibaro hubs are overpriced and you can achieve the same thing with one Rpi2 and a zwave expansion board.

Fair point. Each to their own
Both sound like great systems

What I would say is that imo the power sockets with Uk 13amp twin sockets from lightwaverf look very good. I've two. The equivalent in X10 is an ugly double adaptor units or a bulky white socket. That's only ones I've seen, I had to get the socket second hand on ebay.

I can lock these sockets too making them safer for the kids.

Lightwaverf also have the double adaptor units they are 25 pounds for three and you get a remote they you can use for other lightwave devices .

One X10 adaptor cost me that in its own without a remote.

I'd argue that using PIRs to turn off boilers is a waste as the circulation pump and fans run after the boiler is switched off while the water is still warm. So X10 on/off control via a Pir trigger would hardly ever save you money imo.

So I've the 6 biggest rads in my house with TVR control. Each rad has a timer and I can make zoned groups

Using an alarm contact to close an individual tvr would be nice alright. But the cost per tvr is huge. Lightwaverf were the cheapest. I spent 200 on them all I'd rather better quality units , smaller etc. but they work, this was the hardest bit. I just use the lightwaverf app for this and i don't change it much at all.

I popped the immersion on to the lightwaverf app at the weekend. The relay was 16 pounds. But costs have risen

What I'm saying is that generally heating is not very responsive, so really you want zoned control with stats around the place to stop the water going into a particular rad or area.

The best heating upgrade I did was external insulation, took the fluctuations down a lot

I think that the newer options are simpler , all my wife wants to do is turn the heating on remotely, she's not one bit interested in turning it off.
She loved the X10 text facility

I think we are heading for a new generation now. Having all that IO from the intruder alarm system is great but I think the likes of Megman and Philips will nail the lighting site of things with dimming and scene selection power options can be though the likes of lightwaverf. These apps linked with Google home apple home kit and Alexia I think it's where it's headed, for the masses

Note I've a lightwaverf hub in for 20 months and I've never had to touch it or restart it once, that is a big plus for me.

At the weekend my wife used IFTTT to put a button on her phone to run an event to turn off all the TVs and amps etc. I think the new generation is easier to use less hassle, less work for me!

I've lamp in the hall that is liked to the Google dusk setting it comes on when it's dark and turns off at midnight. I don't need a Pir on it, I want it on a timer / photo option.

Theres a recipe to have it turn on when when you are on the way home linked to your phone location, I haven't tried it yet.

It's great setting all the other stuff up and if you have it then the gains are marginal in switching but if I was starting from scratch I'd just leave the security systems running on one solid app (like Siemens). But imo those fully integrated systems are not for a novice , certain people will always use their intellect to get a better system, but imo there is value in robustness nd ease of use

I was always messing around with the other pi stuff and X10 can be flakey for some but never in my house in fairness

X10 was solid for what I wanted it for but it's 1970s tech at the same time.

Btw I've a couple of X10 bits spare if either of you are interested. Namely that recessed integrated socket, it was hard to source if you have a need for it you can have it. Nice in a hall of you don't want the bulk.

Wossack

thanks for all the input guys - very much appreciated

home automation is something Im very keen on, so Im looking for a security system that will play nicely with a separate home automation hub - why I was considering SPC + lundix. Anything from GSD that may suit the bill also?

to simplify (or not!) we have a Nest installed, and I have a media server in the attic, and it can run vm's/dockers, so should be able to get lundix running without anything major (no raspPi needed). Serves out media to a couple of htpcs around the house. Option there to use it as a target/controller for IP cameras also

I had looked at the lightwaverf stuff and really liked the style, and the fact they're uk based, so I'd say fairly straightforward to implement here (a lot seemed to be US-centric, with 110v, or different wiring/outlet etc). It may be the route I take when I get to the lighting automation phase

I guess at the moment this post is sort of moving into the realms of a DIY install. Ive spent the last couple of nights planning out the current system, and planning the new, with what I want and where. Maybe I should start a new thread? Or is it ok to change the direction of this one?

Stoner

It's your thread work away

bk

I have to agree with Stoner, I think it is best to invest in home automation technologies from companies who specialise in their own specific area (e.g. Philips Hue/Lightwaverf for lighting, Logitech Harmony for entertainment systems, Nest/Netatmo/etc. for heating, Siemens for security, etc.) and instead use higher level services like IFTTT, Yonomi, Amazon Echo to tie them all together, rather then using a cobbled together all in one system, for a company that doesn't really have expertise in the other areas.

I do feel that the security systems are falling way behind the other ecosystems I mentioned above. I suppose it is partly understandable as they have to be more conservative given the importance of reliability for security systems.

I've looked into some DIY smart alarm system, like ismartalarm, but it seems to be still a very immature industry that is far from there yet (no battery backup, no secondary gsm path and no shock sensors!).

Siemens does seem to be the best out there. But it doesn't seem to really integrate with anything else out there. No IFTTT, yonomi, Amazon echo integration.

My dream is to be able to just say, "Alexa, turn on night more" and have it:
- Turn off the TV/AV/sat box, etc.
- Turn off the heating
- Turn on the bedside lamps
- Gradually turn off all the other lights in the house after a minute
- Arm the alarm systems night mode

Sounds like magic, doesn't it? But I already have everything in the list, except for the alarm system, doing exactly that and it didn't even take 30 minutes to set up!