Excessive tiling quote?

DamoKen

Hi, looking at getting an area approx 5 metres squared tiled. Tiles are ceramic, 200mm square. Part of the area is plasterboard which still has some adhesive from the original tiles on it, part is solid stone with old tiles still attached (which I'll remove prior to tiling). Small section of the plasterboard approx 100mm by 200mm came away with the old tiles but easy to replace, support batten is also already accessible behind it.

Have been quoted €350 over the phone with only the size and pic of the wall as reference. Also said we need to supply chrome battens for around the window so my wife asked about grout and adhesive and he said he could supply that for extra.

Dropped charging for the grout and adhesive when we queried the quote saying it was worth €50, also said he would remove the remaining tiles which he originally said he'd remove for another €50.

Have prices gone up that much over the last few years? From threads here 4 years back the upper end was half of what he quoted per metre.

Cheers

BryanF

Economies of scale

Are you allowing for the half hour he's already spent on the phone

Gumbo

DamoKen wrote: »

Hi, looking at getting an area approx 5 metres squared tiled. Tiles are ceramic, 200mm square. Part of the area is plasterboard which still has some adhesive from the original tiles on it, part is solid stone with old tiles still attached (which I'll remove prior to tiling). Small section of the plasterboard approx 100mm by 200mm came away with the old tiles but easy to replace, support batten is also already accessible behind it.

Have been quoted €350 over the phone with only the size and pic of the wall as reference. Also said we need to supply chrome battens for around the window so my wife asked about grout and adhesive and he said he could supply that for extra.

Dropped charging for the grout and adhesive when we queried the quote saying it was worth €50, also said he would remove the remaining tiles which he originally said he'd remove for another €50.

Have prices gone up that much over the last few years? From threads here 4 years back the upper end was half of what he quoted per metre.

Cheers

Get 2 more quotes and compare.

DamoKen

BryanF wrote: »

Economies of scale

Are you allowing for the half hour he's already spent on the phone

I took the scale into account, when quoted asked if he had minimum pricing and answer was no. Then asked what was he charging per metre and he said he wasn't, said it was an unusual wall configuration. The wall is bog standard with a window half a tile width off the counter top at one end, nothing more complicated than that.

BryanF wrote: »

Are you allowing for the half hour he's already spent on the phone

You're taking the p*ss right? I was talking to a tiler for less than 5 min about a kitchen backsplash, not a pay per minute D4 barrister getting me off a murder rap. Would be the first time I was charged double simply for calling about the job. Think I'm in the wrong business

DamoKen

kceire wrote: »

Get 2 more quotes and compare.

Should have another couple of quotes in this week.

Was just wondering really what is the going rate for tiling so I have an idea what's high/low?

Cheers

wirehairmax

What do you think its worth? By the time its all done, its a days work no matter what way you look at it by the time its grouted and finished. He may have to return on a second day if he cant grout the same day as fitting. Sounds like the walls need some prep work before he even fits the first tile too. You have him down to €300 so how low do you want him to go?

BryanF

DamoKen wrote: »

I took the scale into account...

You're taking the p*ss right? I was talking to a tiler for less than 5 min about a kitchen backsplash, not a pay per minute D4 barrister getting me off a murder rap. Would be the first time I was charged double simply for calling about the job. Think I'm in the wrong business

Economies of scale:

Take into account the time it takes to drop what your doing to focus on a costing for new client.

Then factor in the visit to the hardware shop, the travel time to your door, the set up & cleaning time, disposal, insurance, van/tool/equipment costs...

if you don't appreciate how being self employed works then good luck to you I'm out!

DamoKen

wirehairmax wrote: »

What do you think its worth? By the time its all done, its a days work no matter what way you look at it by the time its grouted and finished. He may have to return on a second day if he cant grout the same day as fitting. Sounds like the walls need some prep work before he even fits the first tile too. You have him down to €300 so how low do you want him to go?

I don't know what it's worth, hence I'm asking what the going rate is. Sorry if it sounded like I want him to do it for nothing, that's not the case. If that's the going rate fair enough, I wouldn't try to get someone to do a job for under what's fair but I hardly think I'm being unreasonable simply asking if a quote is excessive.

And I haven't bargained the price down. He said he'd take off the remaining tiles for an extra €50 (which I hadn't asked for) and then said he'd throw that in without charge so price is still €350. The €50 "off" is for something I can do myself in half an hour if that, already did 4 times that in little over an hour. Only one row left abutted to the counter-top so although it may sound like knocking down the price it's not.

DamoKen

BryanF wrote: »

Economies of scale:

Take into account the time it takes to drop what your doing to focus on a costing for new client.

Less than 5 minutes on the phone, asked for a pic so texted one and quote was back in the next couple of minutes. How much is that?

BryanF wrote: »

Then factor in the visit to the hardware shop, the travel time to your door, the set up & cleaning time, disposal, insurance, van/tool/equipment costs...

I would think all of this is factored into the quote, the same way any business factors running costs into their prices. Hence I am asking what the rate is, is this above normal and possible reasons?

BryanF wrote: »

if you don't appreciate how being self employed works then good luck to you I'm out!

I've been self employed for many years so I have a fair idea how it works. I also know if I used the initial call from a client as an excuse to bump up my quotes I would be out of business fairly quickly.

I've asked if the quote was excessive and what the going rate was. As a response I've been told I have no idea how being self employed works, nor do I seem to have any idea of basic economics, nor the cost of a phone call and text.

Think I can safely say I am out as well

hooplah

I'm getting a builder in to do a few things in the house.We spoke about tiling the floor and he said off-hand that he'd budget €70 per square meter. About €35 for the tiles and material and the other €35 for the tiling.

I know we found cheaper tiles. I assume he knows what he's talking about with the rate though. Hope that's some use to you.

DamoKen

Hi Hooplah, thanks for that. Am I reading your post right in that the price includes supply of tiles?

We're supplying our own tiles so this would be for tiling, grout & adhesive.

Cheers

Gumbo

DamoKen wrote: »

Hi Hooplah, thanks for that. Am I reading your post right in that the price includes supply of tiles?

We're supplying our own tiles so this would be for tiling, grout & adhesive.

Cheers

its all pie in the sky stuff until you get 2 other quotes to compare.
There is an average cost per square meter but it doesn't work on small jobs or larger jobs, they have to be priced to match.

Please post back up what the other quotes you get come in at.

DamoKen

Hi kceire, ok that makes sense, wasn't aware per sq metre wasn't used on smaller jobs. I can understand a small job having a minimum price to make it worthwhile but as the tiler said he didn't have a minimum wasn't sure what he was basing it on.

Should have a couple more quotes in by the end of the week so no problem, can post when I get them.

Cheers

Gumbo

DamoKen wrote: »

Hi kceire, ok that makes sense, wasn't aware per sq metre wasn't used on smaller jobs. I can understand a small job having a minimum price to make it worthwhile but as the tiler said he didn't have a minimum wasn't sure what he was basing it on.

Should have a couple more quotes in by the end of the week so no problem, can post when I get them.

Cheers

Taking the poster above you that stated that his quote allowed for €35 per square meter for the tiler. A small ensuite might only be 1 square meter of tiles, but no way would anyone come in and tile that floor for €35.

hannible the cannible

Just to add ,where are you in the country and is it a cash or by the book payment ?, if it's cash then you'll get him down a bit , if your in Dublin it'll cost more than a tiler in the West , he's not out of the way if he's supplying grout and adhesive , but for a cash nixer I wouldn't be surprised if he does it for 200 to 250 labour only

BryanF

hannible the cannible wrote: »

Just to add ,where are you in the country and is it a cash or by the book payment ?, if it's cash then you'll get him down a bit , if your in Dublin it'll cost more than a tiler in the West , he's not out of the way if he's supplying grout and adhesive , but for a cash nixer I wouldn't be surprised if he does it for 200 to 250 labour only

we will not be discussing the black economy, please read the forum charter before posting again thanks

Handsandtools

At first. No good tiler will tile over old plasterboard covered with old adhesive, the best and quickest way is to replace it. Back-splash tiling cost at least 250 euros no matter the size as it still takes a day, lots of cuts around window, kitchen units etc.
For best result You have to wait a day or so for adhesive to set, never mention primer before tiling.
Are you supply everything or You expect that tiler will do Your shopping for You? Insurance, holiday pay, health and safety fee, health insurance, as self employed don't get sick leave, accountant costs, fuel, tools, clothes etc.

DamoKen

kceire wrote: »

its all pie in the sky stuff until you get 2 other quotes to compare.
There is an average cost per square meter but it doesn't work on small jobs or larger jobs, they have to be priced to match.

Please post back up what the other quotes you get come in at.

Apologies for the delay in getting back to you, few other things came up so tiling went on the back burner for a few weeks.

Got three more quotes in the end, cheapest came in at €150 and most expensive bar the first came in at €300. Middle one was €200 for labour which we went with as he called around to take a look before quoting, plus we liked him, really sound guy. I supplied grout and adhesive which came to €43, he supplied the primer.

Tiling was done Saturday and he called Monday evening to do the grouting. Very happy with the job, original quote was with extractor hood going up after tiling but the guy who did it was happy to cut around it which saved me a lot of time, cuts were bang on as well.

Pretty big spread in quotes so ties in with what you said about small jobs not going by square metres.

Cheers

_Brian

People value their time differently, could well be the lad who did it was doing a nicer and is on the dole also we're all essentially subbing the price of his tiling.

I know a business man and when he has enough work on the books he overpriced jobs, that way if he gets the work he can sub it out and still take a slice off the top.

DamoKen

_Brian wrote: »

People value their time differently, could well be the lad who did it was doing a nicer and is on the dole also we're all essentially subbing the price of his tiling.

I know a business man and when he has enough work on the books he overpriced jobs, that way if he gets the work he can sub it out and still take a slice off the top.

He supplied an invoice on payment so not a nixer, plus chatted with him enough to strongly doubt he's working for anyone but himself.

Cheers

cardwizzard

There's so many lads out there who havnt a breeze what there doing it's shocking. Not regarding their trades or work, but how they run a business.

A lad who charges 200 and has to spend a day then return to grout has cut his own throat. Of course he thinks it's OK as he's pocketed a few bob, he in essence would be better off working for a reputable company, on paye, with his stamp getting paid and collecting holiday pay. But the cycle will go on, his company will go bust and he'll wonder what happened.

Don't blame the op at all, but contractors need to cop on.

massey265

cardwizzard wrote:

There's so many lads out there who havnt a breeze what there doing it's shocking. Not regarding their trades or work, but how they run a business.

cardwizzard wrote:

A lad who charges 200 and has to spend a day then return to grout has cut his own throat. Of course he thinks it's OK as he's pocketed a few bob, he in essence would be better off working for a reputable company, on paye, with his stamp getting paid and collecting holiday pay. But the cycle will go on, his company will go bust and he'll wonder what happened.

cardwizzard wrote:

Don't blame the op at all, but contractors need to cop on.

Yes he would be better off as a paye working for some big company, but it's a sad state when this is the case when the small business is being squeezed out to let the big boys win.

But what is he supposed to do on coming back a second day to grout? Wait about all night for it to set?

Trades people (self employed) aren't Charing enough for their services and then the tax man takes the good out of it.

cardwizzard

massey265 wrote: »

Yes he would be better off as a paye working for some big company, but it's a sad state when this is the case when the small business is being squeezed out to let the big boys win.

But what is he supposed to do on coming back a second day to grout? Wait about all night for it to set?

Trades people (self employed) aren't Charing enough for their services and then the tax man takes the good out of it.

He hasn't charged enough, imo. So what he can do is charge more. 3 visits for a small job, a days work, I'm presuming another hour for grouting, he has basically robbed himself.

He can also educate himself on running his business. His overheads, materials, wages and profit for starters. He can keep detailed records/photos of past work so he knows how long it'll take, to help future pricing.

But anyway...

hannible the cannible

How did you pay him op ? Was it bank transfer or cash

hannible the cannible

cardwizzard wrote: »

There's so many lads out there who havnt a breeze what there doing it's shocking. Not regarding their trades or work, but how they run a business.

A lad who charges 200 and has to spend a day then return to grout has cut his own throat. Of course he thinks it's OK as he's pocketed a few bob, he in essence would be better off working for a reputable company, on paye, with his stamp getting paid and collecting holiday pay. But the cycle will go on, his company will go bust and he'll wonder what happened.

Don't blame the op at all, but contractors need to cop on.

And what's an acceptable price for a tradesman per hour , it's all very well spouting nonsense on here about how he doesn't charge enough for his work but the fact of the matter is that we have to remain competitive , there will always be the guy that can do it for less , fine if they go out of business but there's always someone to take their place , there's no point being a busy fool but the other side of the coin is being at home while someone else does it for cheaper while you hold the moral superiority and convince yourself you couldn't be working for x amount and all the while being out of work because you think you're worth more for your time

tradesman

its a fine line between working & not working. lots of customers just want the job done for the cheapest quote then moan when there are problems afterwards. customers do not see the overheads all self employed people have. no holiday pay, no sickness pay, time spent travelling to price work & producing a quote I have had customers before that when I produce the detailed quote for them that took me a day or two to compose they instantly reply with "thats very dear" you either have to keep your standards up & charge accordingly or fall in with the rest & get in and out as quickly as possible! I'd rather do a right job & keep my reputation

hannible the cannible

That's fine when you have plenty work and sure of it , try pricing like that when work isn't coming to you and see how you get on , sometimes you have to cut your cloth to suit , if enough people are pricing jobs under what you think is right , it might not be them that are wrong

the_pen_turner

hannible the cannible wrote: »

That's fine when you have plenty work and sure of it , try pricing like that when work isn't coming to you and see how you get on , sometimes you have to cut your cloth to suit , if enough people are pricing jobs under what you think is right , it might not be them that are wrong

That's correct when the lower bids are above their break even points. The difference is profit.
The problem is that the lower bids are usually working below their break even point.
They are personally paying the overheads instead of the business.
Or else they are not running an official above board business paying tax etc.


I priced a job a week ago. 20 days work. 150 a day inc VAT. 100 for me 30 for overheads , 20 for VAT and odds and ends
That's about 3000
Someone else bid 2000 for the same work

tradesman

so does that mean you have to start charging 100 incl vat so you get 50 for you, 30 overheads & 20 for vat? where does it end? you have to stick to the price you require to run the business. You are better off not working for that money & spend your time sourcing other works. Again it is a fine line as everyone neds the cash coming in

the_pen_turner

tradesman wrote: »

so does that mean you have to start charging 100 incl vat so you get 50 for you, 30 overheads & 20 for vat? where does it end? you have to stick to the price you require to run the business. You are better off not working for that money & spend your time sourcing other works. Again it kis a fine line as everyone neds the cash coming in

Of course not. That why I'm not doing it.
At 150 I was doing it to get the job. There was no profit in it

cardwizzard

hannible the cannible wrote: »

And what's an acceptable price for a tradesman per hour , it's all very well spouting nonsense on here about how he doesn't charge enough for his work but the fact of the matter is that we have to remain competitive , there will always be the guy that can do it for less , fine if they go out of business but there's always someone to take their place , there's no point being a busy fool but the other side of the coin is being at home while someone else does it for cheaper while you hold the moral superiority and convince yourself you couldn't be working for x amount and all the while being out of work because you think you're worth more for your time

Yes I hear what your saying, if your trying to be the lowest price you'll be circling the drain. If your hungry for work, it's hard to change the mindset.

Price is important, but you got to bring more to the table. Experience, quality, customer service, time frame etc all build value. Not everyone shops on price.

A very important part is the initial call a potential customer makes. Here you can ask important questions to see if they suit what YOUR after.

BTW not trying to take the high moral ground or spout crap, as I said if it's not working probably better taking a job.