Outspoken male "feminists" are hypocrites

El_Duderino 09

Outlaw Pete wrote:

Yeah, you're absolutely right, the question is asked all the time, but the answers are more often than not.. ignored. Third wave feminists have had (and are having) very real negative effects on society. If they weren't, then nobody would care what the hell they said.

Is feminism a big problem in your life then?

Pat Mustard

Grayson wrote: »

does it matter what gender they are if they're the best for the job?

I don't see the relevance of gender in assessing the competence of judges.

What's your point?

Letree

Grayson wrote: »

She's asking for more when she wants there to be 9 on the supreme court?

Firstly, she's right. There have been 9 men for most of it's history.

Secondly, does it matter what gender they are if they're the best for the job?

Its unlikely the best for the job would be 9 women or 9 men. There would have to be some sort of shenanigans going on for that to happen. Unless one sex is vastly more capable that the other. Which is not the case.

Outlaw Pete

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Is feminism a big problem in your life then?

Stop trying to make the thread personal.

I have given you numerous examples of a how feminism negatively effects society. You identify as a male feminist. Can you rebut the points or not?

Outlaw Pete

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

No you misunderstand. You're biased towards the lads who go around talking about this stuff, not the lads who say nothing and treat people fairly. I bet you don't even notice their feminism. Why would you?

No YOU misunderstand.

So what if there may have been times when I wouldn't even have known that someone's company I was in was a male feminist? Just because someone is quiet about believing the Earth is flat, doesn't mean they are any less of an idiot than someone who soapboxes about it.

the evasion_kid

Feminism is one giant s**t test...

El_Duderino 09

Outlaw Pete wrote:

Stop trying to make the thread personal.

It's very easy to find lads with their panties in a twist about how dreadful feminism is. I'm asking if anyone has any experience of feminism outside if daft hints in the internet. One fella even endured the horror of feminism coming up in conversation! Apart from that it's very difficult to make feminism personal because the same lads don't actually experience these dreadful feminists in real life -apart from a severe case of twisted knickers.

Outlaw Pete wrote:

I have given you numerous examples of a how feminism negatively effects society. You identify as a male feminist. Can you rebut the points or not?

Did you mention the shirt scientist? I don't defend that. What else was there?

Outlaw Pete wrote:

So what if there may have been times when I wouldn't even have known that someone's company I was in was a male feminist? Just because someone is quiet about believing the Earth is flat, doesn't mean they are any less of an idiot than someone who soapboxes about it.

So what? So your sample is biased in favour of the clowns who go around soapboxing. Really simple concept. You only count the clowns because they're the only ones you know are feminists then declare that all the feminists you know are clowns. Classic

Outlaw Pete wrote:

So what if there may have been times when I wouldn't even have known that someone's company I was in was a male feminist? Just because someone is quiet about believing the Earth is flat, doesn't mean they are any less of an idiot than someone who soapboxes about it.

As above. Biased sample is biased by bias

Outlaw Pete

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It's very easy to find lads with their panties in a twist about how dreadful feminism is. I'm asking if anyone has any experience of feminism outside if daft hints in the internet. One fella even endured the horror of feminism coming up in conversation! Apart from that it's very difficult to make feminism personal because the same lads don't actually experience these dreadful feminists in real life -apart from a severe case of twisted knickers.

Like I said, I have given you numerous examples of how feminism negatively effects young men and you keep coming back looking for experiences of 'dreadful feminists'. You're not listening.

Did you mention the shirt scientist? I don't defend that.

Nope, I didn't.

What else was there?

Are you really asking me what I have just said? Read the damn post.

So what? So your sample is biased in favour of the clowns who go around soapboxing. Really simple concept. You only count the clowns because they're the only ones you know are feminists then declare that all the feminists you know are clowns. Classic

No, I am saying that the feminists that have most influenced society are the ones I am labeling as they are the ones that matter. They are the ones shaping society and doing so in other women's name. Many of whom don't want them to. Indeed some have been pointing out as much for decades now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXGm9kvgslc

El_Duderino 09

Outlaw Pete wrote:

the damn post.

Thanks.

I don't know the Harriet Harman case but it sounds ridiculous. Fair point.

The media/entertainment types are almost irrelevant. Comedy is suppose to push boundaries, that's one if the main points of art. Louis CK does some harsh banter and it's part of the same schtick. Take it or leave it but jaysus do yourself a favour don't be caught whining about it. The Schemer bit wasn't even gender based. Aren't hecklers fair game? Maybe I dont get the rules.

Outlaw Pete wrote:

No, I am saying that the feminists that have most influenced society are the ones I am labeling as they are the ones that matter. They are the ones shaping society and doing so in other women's name. Many of whom don't want them to. Indeed some have been pointing out as much for decades now.

Now you are. You started off saying all the male feminists you met or read about are weirdos or something similar. I pointed out how ridiculous that statement is and now you change the subject. Grand so.

Meryl Streep is more successful than most people will ever be. She's one who walks the walk isn't she?

Lol at the example. Olympics is one of the places where achievement is based solely on merit and cant really be influenced by attractivness. Commenting on attractiveness is actually peripheral. Commenting on model's attractiveness is also surely appropriate because in that case it's part of the job.

Commenting on normal people's attractiveness is different because perceptions can actually affect careers even though it needn't be in any way relevant to performance.

In any case let them on rating Olympians. Rating politicians attractiveness would actually be potentially harmful but I'm not proposing banning it.

steddyeddy

Letree wrote: »

Most men i know wouldn't consider themselves a feminist. They realise we have equality now. To call yourself a feminist in this day and age means you are favoring women's interests over real equality issues. Feminists are not interested in issues of inequality affecting men. Why would any man buy into that. We need an egalitarian movement that can identify when something adversely affects men or woman. It can't be done under the feminist banner.

For some reason there's a lot of anger against egalitarians. Usually from people who just want something to be angry at.

storker

desertcircus wrote: »

Nothing like the word "feminism" to trigger the waves of absolute garbage from pontificating blowhards convinced that they're smarter than everyone else for hating feminism.

Nice illustration of what's wrong with modern feminism.

Arghus

Sad Professor wrote: »

I remember Faraci from his CHUD days and have always found his trolling of certain online groups great to watch simply because of how good at it he was. Most of the people attacking him now have an axe to grind over something or other. Undoubtedly he brought a lot of this on himself, but I really dislike the online witch hunt that he's being subjected to over an incident that happened a decade ago and which he apparently doesn't remember – probably because he was drunk at the time.

I feel a bit of mixed emotions at his fate. He was oftentimes a perceptive critic, who could definitely write well about movies, but on a personal level he always came across as an obnoxious asshole - always willing to stir up a storm amongst people for a bit of notice, fond of the sound of his own voice. I wouldn't be surprised if the reason always self identified as a "feminist" was primarily down to the amount of heckles it would raise amongst those who he clearly relished battling with over Twitter and whatnot.

But, watching the man's career going up in flames fills me with a equal mixture of Schadenfreude and uneasiness. You're right, he's definitely brought some of this rough treatment upon himself, and part of me thinks that it couldn't happen to a nicer guy. On the other hand, a randomer made an accusation - presented without proof - online, and that was that. Now people and outlets who should know better are queuing up to dance on his grave. Seems a tad unfair, to say the least - and I think the guy is an asshat.

Annasopra

Deleted User wrote: »

Hard to tell what this thread is about

Feminist bashing... nothing else really

ThinkProgress

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It's very easy to find lads with their panties in a twist about how dreadful feminism is. I'm asking if anyone has any experience of feminism outside if daft hints in the internet. One fella even endured the horror of feminism coming up in conversation! Apart from that it's very difficult to make feminism personal because the same lads don't actually experience these dreadful feminists in real life -apart from a severe case of twisted knickers.

You seem to be getting a bit hot and bothered yourself...

I think I know what set you off too.

It was my suggestion that all 'male feminists' are quite likely suffering from a deep routed inferiority complex towards other males... (in fact not much different from feminists in general on that score tbf)

Why do people need to be face-to-face with some 'she-devil' in order to experience the knock on effects of modern day feminism? It's omnipresent in our feminized western culture!

Sad Professor

Arghus wrote: »

I feel a bit of mixed emotions at his fate. He was oftentimes a perceptive critic, who could definitely write well about movies, but on a personal level he always came across as an obnoxious asshole - always willing to stir up a storm amongst people for a bit of notice, fond of the sound of his own voice. I wouldn't be surprised if the reason always self identified as a "feminist" was primarily down to the amount of heckles it would raise amongst those who he clearly relished battling with over Twitter and whatnot.

But, watching the man's career going up in flames fills me with a equal mixture of Schadenfreude and uneasiness. You're right, he's definitely brought some of this rough treatment upon himself, and part of me thinks that it couldn't happen to a nicer guy. On the other hand, a randomer made an accusation - presented without proof - online, and that was that. Now people and outlets who should know better are queuing up to dance on his grave. Seems a tad unfair, to say the least - and I think the guy is an asshat.

I always thought of Faraci as a self-hating male nerd who liked trolling less self-aware male nerds as an outlet for his frustrations. Identifying as a male feminist was just another way for him to rile those people up and it worked!

But yeah it's crazy to think an anonymous tweet can destroy someone's career. I hope he's able to pick up some of the pieces and make a comeback as he's a great writer, but it will difficult with the Gamergate movement fully mobilised against him and any publication that tries to hire him.

HellSquirrel

It was my suggestion that all 'male feminists' are quite likely suffering from a deep routed inferiority complex towards other males... (in fact not much different from feminists in general on that score tbf)

Why do people need to be face-to-face with some 'she-devil' in order to experience the knock on effects of modern day feminism? It's omnipresent in our feminized western culture!

Seems like a good reason to think you're talking crap.

Men are either feeling deep-routed inferiority or want women back in their place and all women are 'omnipresent' shrieking harpies. You live in a strange world.

ThinkProgress

HellSquirrel wrote: »

or want women back in their place and all women are 'omnipresent' shrieking harpies. You live in a strange world.

Where did I say any of that?

Are you having trouble reading? Or just like inventing stuff?

Wibbs

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I see rape as a serious topic. I thought we would agree on that.

Still banging that drum eh.

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Stop trying to make the thread personal.

It's the goto response when any argument doesn't stack up.

You identify as a male feminist. Can you rebut the points or not?

This is extremely common among self identifying "feminists". They tap out early/claim it's only the loonies*/feign ignorance of real world effects/go on the attack[delete as applicable].

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Feminist bashing... nothing else really

So that's all you have? That's a mighty keen rebuttal indeed.


*oddly the common or garden right wing reactionary gobdaws tend to be shamelessly happy to embrace their particular brand of lunacy, the "left/liberal" tend to deny it exists, or is only a minority.

orubiru

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Feminist bashing... nothing else really

Do they deserve the bashing they get though?

From reading the thread the biggest problem people seems to have is that the more questionable, obviously wrong and deliberately provocative aspects of Feminism can never be called out, criticised or contradicted without some serious backlash.

These objectionable aspects of Feminism are usually propagated by self identified, and sometimes academic, Feminist writers and these writers apparently get a free pass to say what they want to the point where their ideas start to become mainstream.

Take yourself for example. You have taken a thread that has lot of the measured and thought provoking comments and characterised it as "Feminist bashing... nothing else really". How fair is that assessment?

For me this leaves the impression that you are saying something like "just let the silly women have their silly opinions" and asking us to leave Feminists alone because they are harmless and of no consequence.

Or you are saying something like "Feminism is 100% correct about everything all the time" and asking us to leave Feminists alone because they are right about everything and they always will be.

Should Feminism be exempt from criticism?

Some people put themselves in a situation where they think that a lot of the people who criticise Feminism are not nice people. It follows from there that you won't criticise Feminism because you don't want to be seen to side with those people. If you do this then you are creating an environment where really bad ideas get to go unchallenged.

The end result of this is that your movement becomes an attractive thing for bullies and abusers. Imagine being able to join a club where you can demonise people, call them out and take cheap shots at them and nobody will ever criticise you because you identify as one of the "good guys".

They guy in this example, Devin Faraci, is going around accusing people who dislike Ghostbusters of being sexist or misogynist or just bad people when he knows damn well that he has sexually assaulted or harassed women himself. As a self identified Feminist though I assume he feels protected by the label. He's a bully who got a free pass because he was a Feminist bully.

I see Louise O'Neill mentioned and she is another great example. She comes out with some awfully divisive and provocative stuff but she manages to escape proper criticism as she also plays the "why are people picking on me, a poor little Feminist" game to avoid being called on her BS. She's a bully who gets a free pass because she's a Feminist bully.

I feel like a big contributor to this issue with modern Feminism is that any criticism of the movement is met with the reply that it's "Feminist bashing... nothing else really". So people in the movement feel free to do and say what they like because their critics will be summarily dismissed.

It's unbelievable to me that people can sit there feel that it's totally fine to characterise well thought out, well argued and well presented objections as "Feminist bashing... nothing else really".

Why does Feminism get a free pass? Why are Feminists who make idiotic points and arguments allowed to do so safe in the knowledge that anyone who disagrees will be flippantly dismissed and those who disagree loudly and publicly will be labelled as harassers etc?

You are part of the problem here, in my opinion.

mzungu

Sad Professor wrote: »

But yeah it's crazy to think an anonymous tweet can destroy someone's career. I hope he's able to pick up some of the pieces and make a comeback as he's a great writer, but it will difficult with the Gamergate movement fully mobilised against him and any publication that tries to hire him.

He never denied it either, and more or less confirmed it in a tweet:

Other women offered their own stories of Faraci’s inappropriate behavior. He did not deny @spacecrone‘;s accusations, tweeting, “I can only believe you and beg forgiveness for having been so vile.”

http://variety.com/2016/film/news/devin-faraci-birth-movies-death-sexual-assault-1201885262/

El_Duderino 09

ThinkProgress wrote:

Why do people need to be face-to-face with some 'she-devil' in order to experience the knock on effects of modern day feminism? It's omnipresent in our feminized western culture!

If it's everywhere in our culture it should be fairly easy to point to then. So far we have lots of mad stuff on the internet, some mad stuff in America, shirt scientist being fired (genuinely wrong) a comedian calling a heckler fat, a male boss who views other men as threats (not sure how those 2 even related to feminism) feminism has come up in a few conversations and media types making money from peddling crap media.

I must be missing something because this stuff just doesn't interfere with my life. You see it everywhere. What am I missing specifically?

Sad Professor

mzungu wrote: »

He never denied it either, and more or less confirmed it in a tweet:

http://variety.com/2016/film/news/devin-faraci-birth-movies-death-sexual-assault-1201885262/

He's been described by more than one person as a "blackout drunk", so I don't think he confirmed it so much as he accepted that it probably happened. He could have denied it or tried to downplay it, which would be the default reaction of most guys in that situation tbh. Given the consequences for his career, I think the way he handled it was quite admirable. That's not to take away from he did, though.

El_Duderino 09

Wibbs wrote:

Still banging that drum eh.

I would think it's one if the most basic points of unanimous human agreement. I'm going to assume you think rape is an important issue. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Wibbs wrote:

It's the goto response when any argument doesn't stack up.

I'm actually asking for the argument in concrete terms. Talking vaguely about the feminisation of the West seems to be very convincing for some people. I'm asking what it means in reality, which seems very hard to pin down.

Anything can be attributed to feminism without any challenge from the lads on is thread. examples do far include a female comedian calling a heckler fat (in America) to Irish examples of a male boss seeing men as a threat and feminism coming up in a few conversation. If any of these are good examples of dreaded feminism in normal life, then it's a small issue.

Wibbs wrote:

This is extremely common among self identifying "feminists". They tap out early/claim it's only the loonies*/feign ignorance of real world effects/go on the attack[delete as applicable].

Deleting it all might be most applicable. Except the bit about ignorance of feminism in the real world. I keep asking got examples of that but you took exception to that and called it a 'goto response when any argument doesn't stack up'. Hard to get down to what the actual problem is in reality.

Wibbs wrote:

*oddly the common or garden right wing reactionary gobdaws tend to be shamelessly happy to embrace their particular brand of lunacy, the "left/liberal" tend to deny it exists, or is only a minority.

This keeps coming up. What does it actually mean? Right-wing lads adopt something and left wing lads deny that something exists. What's the 'something'? Is it the problem that feminism poses? I keep asking for real life problems with feminism but, as above, you took exception to that.

storker

orubiru wrote: »

Why does Feminism get a free pass? Why are Feminists who make idiotic points and arguments allowed to do so safe in the knowledge that anyone who disagrees will be flippantly dismissed and those who disagree loudly and publicly will be labelled as harassers etc?

...and never mind the fact that some of the outspoken critics of modern feminism are former feminists themselves, who are happy for what feminism achieved in the past but are now looking at what it has become and are crying out to stop the insanity.

Of course, the faithful just run into the safe rooms when confronted with such "hate speech" (note to third wave feminists: hating what someone says doesn't mean that what they say is hate speech).

As for the so-called "academics" promoting this nonsense, it's time for Women's Studies/Gender Studies to be removed as subjects from learning institutions. There is no peer review to speak of, no room for dissenting views and in fact gives every appearance of being more of a religion than an academic area of study.

We put some money into a savings fund each month towards our daughters' further education, but we've already decided that it's for worthwhile subjects only and if either wants to pursue a propaganda subject like Women's Studies, they can bloody well fund it themselves...

Potatoeman

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I would think it's one if the most basic points of unanimous human agreement. I'm going to assume you think rape is an important issue. Correct me if I'm wrong.



I'm actually asking for the argument in concrete terms. Talking vaguely about the feminisation of the West seems to be very convincing for some people. I'm asking what it means in reality, which seems very hard to pin down.

Anything can be attributed to feminism without any challenge from the lads on is thread. examples do far include a female comedian calling a heckler fat (in America) to Irish examples of a male boss seeing men as a threat and feminism coming up in a few conversation. If any of these are good examples of dreaded feminism in normal life, then it's a small issue.

You seem willfully ignorant for someone on this forum since '09 and active in AH. There is a couple of threads a month about the latest feminist thing.

El_Duderino 09

Potatoeman wrote:

You seem willfully ignorant for someone on this forum since '09 and active in AH. There is a couple of threads a month about the latest feminist thing.

I get that there's anger. Some lads are fairly upset about feminism and the feminisation of the West, for example. I can't find the actual problem and how it's affecting people in reality.

If there's a problem, isn't it normal to define the problem and tailor a solution? There seems to be a huge problem, it's just that nobody seems willing to share exactly what it is. In fact asking what it is caused offence, ironically enough.

silverharp

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I get that there's anger. Some lads are fairly upset about feminism and the feminisation of the West, for example. I can't find the actual problem and how it's affecting people in reality.

If there's a problem, isn't it normal to define the problem and tailor a solution? There seems to be a huge problem, it's just that nobody seems willing to share exactly what it is. In fact asking what it is caused offence, ironically enough.

you're asking the question like you have just arrived on the planet which obviously isn't true so why don't you answer your own question?

Potatoeman

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I get that there's anger. Some lads are fairly upset about feminism and the feminisation of the West, for example. I can't find the actual problem and how it's affecting people in reality.

If there's a problem, isn't it normal to define the problem and tailor a solution? There seems to be a huge problem, it's just that nobody seems willing to share exactly what it is. In fact asking what it is caused offence, ironically enough.

The main problem people have with it is these are not lone nutters but frequently people in positions of power. It would not be tolerated if the genders were reversed.

El_Duderino 09

Potatoeman wrote:

The main problem people have with it is these are not lone nutters but frequently people in positions of power. It would not be tolerated if the genders were reversed.

A vague reference to a dreadful problem. If the problem is so big and omnipresent, as one poster put it, then it should be simple enough to point to and define.

El_Duderino 09

silverharp wrote:

you're asking the question like you have just arrived on the planet which obviously isn't true so why don't you answer your own question?

I'm always surprised at the level of anger but difficulty in defining the problem.

I think there are problems, shirt scientist was one example. Most of the issues I see men complaining about are things that they would dismiss out of hand if feminists made the same claim.

There's an article on BBC news today about a pharmacy with a 7% 'man tax'. They claim it's to highlight the fact that womens items are on average 7% more expensive than men's items. Razors are one example where the price is just jacked up on women.

-the phqrmacy actually say it's a 7%reduction for women but they call at a man tax to make the point.

Thoughts?