Outspoken male "feminists" are hypocrites

Potatoeman

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Responses to the pharmacy protest were that the ends dont justify the means, or the end is spurious to begin with, discrimination against men and giving benefits to women at the expense of men.

Responses to the Fathers for Justice was twats, not relevant, stop asking/answering about that incident, and after a bit of coaxing, the end is justified even if not the means.

So the lads on this forum at least, view those 2 incidents from a very different perspective.

Maybe I picked a bad example of a feminist protest. Are there any good examples of feminist protests that you hear about and think it's fair enough? (Either in means or ends)

The pharmacy protest is very odd as women use more medical services than men. Should they pay more for health insurance because of this? As men pay more for car insurance.

silverharp

Potatoeman wrote: »

The pharmacy protest is very odd as women use more medical services than men. Should they pay more for health insurance because of this? As men pay more for car insurance.

I accidently saw a quick commentary on this earlier, apparently its to highlight that women allegedly pay more for toiletries than men, razors and the like. it might be illegal for the shop to do this particular "tax" especially if a man and woman want the same product, to fk with them any guy stupid enough to go in there should just identify as trans and see if they fall into the trap

Potatoeman

silverharp wrote: »

I accidently saw a quick commentary on this earlier, apparently its to highlight that women allegedly pay more for toiletries than men, razors and the like. it might be illegal for the shop to do this particular "tax" especially if a man and woman want the same product, to fk with them any guy stupid enough to go in there should just identify as trans and see if they fall into the trap

It was debunked by the companies that make the products as they wanted it to be very clear why things are more expensive. I would have thought that a pharmacy would know that women use more medical services than men...

El_Duderino 09

silverharp wrote:

no you are bringing minor instances without even explaining the point. re the "7%" tax thing, all I had seen prior was a pix on twitter and I didn't know why they did it and you didn't explain it either, you then take my dismissal of it as evasion and a score for you. if you want to present something to invite my response lay it out for me and assume I know nothing about it which often I don't. otherwise I will begin to assume you are not a very cogent poster or you are trying to set posters up so you can appear to have the high ground.

As I said in the last post, I don't want to discuss the details of the individual cases. I'm asking for your views on a range of cases to see what you think about them. That's also why I asked for a better example of a feminist protest so I'm not framing the discussion too much.

Someone asked me what I think, I'm not sure what I think do I'm asking you for your views and the reasons for those views. It's normal discussion stuff. It's not some big gotcha.

So far I've had no trouble getting views on the pharmacy protest but asking for views on a male protest has gotten a very different response.

Can anyone think of a recent feminist protest where they thought there was a fair point in either the subject of the protest or the means used draw attention to the protest?

Potatoeman

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

As I said in the last post, I don't want to discuss the details of the individual cases. I'm asking for your views on a range of cases to see what you think about them. That's also why I asked for a better example of a feminist protest so I'm not framing the discussion too much.

Someone asked me what I think, I'm not sure what I think do I'm asking you for your views and the reasons for those views. It's normal discussion stuff. It's not some big gotcha.

So far I've had no trouble getting views on the pharmacy protest but asking for views on a male protest has gotten a very different response.

Can anyone think of a recent feminist protest where they thought there was a fair point in either the subject of the protest or the means used draw attention to the protest?

You're the feminist, you tell us.

El_Duderino 09

Potatoeman wrote:

You're the feminist, you tell us.

I'm specifically trying to get your views. I'll tell you my view after I've collected a few opinions. Very simple. Collect information, then make up your mind.

If you can't think of any recent feminist protest where you thought they at least had a point, that's fine, just say so.

Lads this is like pulling teeth. For fellas with such strong opinions, you're not that keen to actualky discuss those opinions.

ThinkProgress

Potatoeman wrote: »

You're the feminist, you tell us.

He might fall off that fence he's so precariously balanced on... :P

At least you could respect the fact that an actual feminist holds a strong opinion and defends it robustly. (However misguided and irrational it might be)

This pi$$ weak pandering to both sides is depressing to read... It's a sad development in a section of the male demographic!

Maybe they think it makes them look more introspective or something? Dunno really... Just reads like a weak emasculated male that doesn't know who he is or what position to hold...

silverharp

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I'm specifically trying to get your views. I'll tell you my view after I've collected a few opinions. Very simple. Collect information, then make up your mind.

If you can't think of any recent feminist protest where you thought they at least had a point, that's fine, just say so.

Lads this is like pulling teeth. For fellas with such strong opinions, you're not that keen to actualky discuss those opinions.

the femen ones at the muslim conference in france I think. the aim was good but they are batsh1t in their methods, Maryam Namazie has done good stuff in the UK over women in Islam. I cant think of any others that have merit, I can only remember the ones that are idiotic, arguing for female carriage in London, sexist air conditioning in offices, badly argued and mostly false wage gap myth. it might be easier if you presented a list of ones you think have merit and we can chew it over?

El_Duderino 09

ThinkProgress wrote:

At least you could respect the fact that an actual feminist holds a strong opinion and defends it robustly. (However misguided and irrational it might be)

I don't suppose you've noticed that since I started asking for your opinions on the relative protests, I haven't actually offers an opinion let alone defend it... I'll offer an opinion once I have enough information about your views. That information is proving hard to get though.

ThinkProgress

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I don't suppose you've noticed that since I started asking for your opinions on the relative protests, I haven't actually offers an opinion let alone defend it... I'll offer an opinion once I have enough information about your views. That information is proving hard to get though.

No, give your opinion and be brave enough to stand behind it.

Actual feminists have more sack than you... It's embarrassing.(I'm going to feel embarrassed for you, since you don't seem to be yourself)

El_Duderino 09

silverharp wrote:

the femen ones at the muslim conference in france I think. the aim was good but they are batsh1t in their methods, Maryam Namazie has done good stuff in the UK over women in Islam. I cant think of any others that have merit, I can only remember the ones that are idiotic, arguing for female carriage in London, sexist air conditioning in offices, badly argued and mostly false wage gap myth. it might be easier if you presented a list of ones you think have merit and we can chew it over?

Right so there's one. The end was justified but not the means -ill take your word on it because I don't know the actual event you're talking about. Women in Islam can get a raw deal so feminism might have a contemporary role to play. Is they a fair summation?

I don't want to discuss the individual issues at this point. That's been done to death and it only goes around in circles.

FWIW in vaguely familiar with the the protests you mention above. The office heating one didn't excite me one way or the other, never heard of the London carriage one, and I gather that the water from us more co.plicated than raw stats suggest. Either way j haven't really looked into it.

Still trying to gather info on your opinions. Any more opinions or have we reached data saturation on that?

Outlaw Pete

suicide_circus wrote: »

..usually one or two creepy guys in these crowds who are invariably there as a means to graze against some boob.

...

Letree

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

...

You could pick them out a mile away

ThinkProgress

This movie quote comes to mind, when I think of pu$$y-whipped 'male feminists'... :pac:

Grayson

FizzleSticks wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

See the thing is that as men we have no conception of what it's like to be a woman. It's an entirely different existence even though it's in the same world. Most women will be sexually harassed at some point. They'll have judgements drawn on them based on how they look or how many people they sleep with. There is a certain amount of latent double standards out there. And even though we as men don't participate in it, a hell of a lot of men do.

Here's a simple example. I worked in a place where we had a workplace meeting where management wanted to know what they could do to make things better. Top of the list for women was better lighting outside. There was a 20-30 metre walk from where we worked to where people parked. Depending on the shift you worked you could be there to 10 at night.

The area is considered safe. It's actually a lovely area on a university campus. I never felt vaguely threatened.However there's loads of trees and bushes and there was a light at the car park but not before then. After the meeting I worked late and when I was leaving that night I noticed all these shadows and places where someone could hide. As a man I had a completely different experience to that nice walk through the trees to what a woman would experience.

Feminism can be about just fighting legal battles for equal opportunities but I think that if you want to truly be a feminist and a man you have to be aware of what it's like to be a woman.

Just like if you want to be anti racist it's not enough to just say racism is wrong, you need to understand what it's like to be black. A black person in the US will quite often be wary when they see a cop. It's something that as a white person I've never experienced. But I've never been stopped driving just for being black so why would I?

Now I think a lot of third wave (And second wave for that matter) feminism is a load of rubbish. I certainly don't wear tee shirts with feminist logo's. I would however describe myself as a feminist. I'm not going to stop or feel bad about it because some blokes on a reddit for red pill feel insecure.

RobertKK

I think most men are feminist to a certain degree, what I mean is most men in western countries believe women should get equal pay for equal work to what a man does...which means women should have to win three sets in female grand slam tennis events or men just have to win two sets...because men should get equal pay for equal work too.

ligerdub

You think men aren't likely to be victims of violence and white people can't comprehend racism?

Grayson

ligerdub wrote: »

You think men aren't likely to be victims of violence and white people can't comprehend racism?

Men are far less likely to be victims of sexual assault or sexual harassment from the opposite gender. I'm not saying it doesn't happen I'm saying it's far less likely to happen. Plus men often more able to brush it off. I'm a small enough guy. I'm not short but I'm skinny. Still, most women don't pose a physical threat to me. That doesn't make it right when it happens I'm just saying that the threat level is less.

And I never said that white people can't comprehend racism. I said they don't have the same daily experiences so they view the world differently.

Potatoeman

Grayson wrote: »

Men are far less likely to be victims of sexual assault or sexual harassment from the opposite gender. I'm not saying it doesn't happen I'm saying it's far less likely to happen. Plus men often more able to brush it off. I'm a small enough guy. I'm not short but I'm skinny. Still, most women don't pose a physical threat to me. That doesn't make it right when it happens I'm just saying that the threat level is less.

And I never said that white people can't comprehend racism. I said they don't have the same daily experiences so they view the world differently.

Men are stastically more likely to be assaulted though and white men are stastically more likley to be killed by a black man than a white man , black men are more likely to be killed by black men.

Grayson

Potatoeman wrote: »

Men are stastically more likely to be assaulted though and white men are stastically more likley to be killed by a black man than a white man , black men are more likely to be killed by black men.

I guess women don't experience sexual assault and black people don't experience racism. Sorry about my mistake you've proven me wrong and I accept that.

ligerdub

Grayson wrote: »

Men are far less likely to be victims of sexual assault or sexual harassment from the opposite gender. I'm not saying it doesn't happen I'm saying it's far less likely to happen. Plus men often more able to brush it off. I'm a small enough guy. I'm not short but I'm skinny. Still, most women don't pose a physical threat to me. That doesn't make it right when it happens I'm just saying that the threat level is less.

And I never said that white people can't comprehend racism. I said they don't have the same daily experiences so they view the world differently.

I merely said violence. I said nothing about sexual assaults. I'm not suggesting a hierarchy of serious crimes, but I think that the argument that men don't consider their safety when walking in unlit areas outdoors at night is wide of the mark. I'd have no problem in stating I would be very wary in such a circumstance. Perhaps you are stating you aren't because you either don't consider yourself a potential victim of a crime (you are). It doesn't matter how big you are, in cases of violence you're more likely to be attacked by multiple people, and trust me you'd stand no chance.

Obviously the issue of rape and sexual assault is massively weighted towards women, but the issue is personal safety and risk. That applies to both genders.

You can't just assume that certain races see racism daily and expect that to be taken as given. I'd challenge that viewpoint quite strongly.

Potatoeman

Grayson wrote: »

I guess women don't experience sexual assault and black people don't experience racism. Sorry about my mistake you've proven me wrong and I accept that.

I'm not saying they don't. I'm just pointing out that stastically men are more at risk of attack and whitemen are stastically more at risk from blackmen than blackmen are from whitemen(in the US).

Grayson

Potatoeman wrote: »

I'm not saying they don't. I'm just pointing out that stastically men are more at risk of attack and whitemen are stastically more at risk from blackmen than blackmen are from whitemen(in the US).

I realise that too. That's the problem with discussing feminism though. You can't discuss the issues a woman faces without someone at some point trying to make it about men. I realise that men face problems too but anytime feminism is raised it turns into a discussion about how men don't have it easy either.

It turns into a weird cock measuring contest.

Grayson

ligerdub wrote: »

I merely said violence. I said nothing about sexual assaults. I'm not suggesting a hierarchy of serious crimes, but I think that the argument that men don't consider their safety when walking in unlit areas outdoors at night is wide of the mark. I'd have no problem in stating I would be very wary in such a circumstance. Perhaps you are stating you aren't because you either don't consider yourself a potential victim of a crime (you are). It doesn't matter how big you are, in cases of violence you're more likely to be attacked by multiple people, and trust me you'd stand no chance.

Obviously the issue of rape and sexual assault is massively weighted towards women, but the issue is personal safety and risk. That applies to both genders.

You can't just assume that certain races see racism daily and expect that to be taken as given. I'd challenge that viewpoint quite strongly.

I agree that men can be wary too. I was the victim of an assault. Some drunk guys randomly jumped me and I got beaten. I was scared walking through my small town for ages after. But I never had that fear beforehand. And I still would have felt safe walking in a university campus in a small town at night.

As a woman you face far more restrictions than men. Think of the number of women who would be scared to go travelling alone. Men don't have that fear.

The biggest problem is men not realising that these things exist. When we do we kinda just accept that it's the way the world works.

ligerdub

Grayson wrote: »

I agree that men can be wary too. I was the victim of an assault. Some drunk guys randomly jumped me and I got beaten. I was scared walking through my small town for ages after. But I never had that fear beforehand. And I still would have felt safe walking in a university campus in a small town at night.

As a woman you face far more restrictions than men. Think of the number of women who would be scared to go travelling alone. Men don't have that fear.

The biggest problem is men not realising that these things exist. When we do we kinda just accept that it's the way the world works.

A lot of women are rightfully scared of travelling alone, and so should most men in unlit areas at night time. So should you be given what happened to you. You didn't have that fear beforehand most likely because you hadn't been assaulted. You were just ignorant (and I don't mean that in an insulting way) to the risks.

I just don't agree with the premise you're offering that women face more restrictions than men, and men don't realise these things exist. They don't exist. Maybe to you, because you as an individual have stated that you don't seem bothered about walking alone at night despite the fact you've been assaulted in the past. That makes no sense to me brother.

If you find yourself alone on a night out strolling around the place it doesn't matter if you're a man or a woman, you're at risk. As a matter of fact I'd feel more vulnerable to a battering as a man.

FizzleSticks

This post has been deleted.

El_Duderino 09

ThinkProgress wrote:

No, give your opinion and be brave enough to stand behind it.

Well what I think is that the lads on this forum are inclined to see feminist ideas as almost entirely without merit. There were plenty of reasons to dismiss the pharmacy protest. Apart from one example of the suffragettes looking for the right to be hanged, and a modern example of feminism in Islam, there wasn't anyone who could think of good examples of modern feminists goals.

On the other hand there was mostly acceptance of Fathers for justice goals. There was one dissenter , 'twat', but that wasn't very specific, and one poster said yey weren't sure about the method at the rose if Tralee but mostly agreed with the FFJ message.

Most of the opinions show very similar decisions about what feminism is and why each particular argument is wrong. That's either because they all see the obvious truth in the situation, or the decide based on whether they like an argument or not, if not then it's classes as feminism. If they hear an argument and think 'fair enough', they class it as egalitarian.

I think here are some fairly far out ideas that go completely unchallenged when even the slightest mention of feminism gets plenty of responses ranging from outright dismissal, to straight insults, with smattering of considered responses.

I think it's very strange that there are such strident positions taken on feminism, but it was very hard to get them to talk about why they hold those positions. It's an internet discussion forum to discuss ideas. It's not a great big 'gotcha' setup. I asked for your opinions and that's what I think based on the responses.

ThinkProgress

FizzleSticks wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

^^An excellent example of a strong and opinionated woman.

Strong women 1 - 0 Feminism

Not intended to be patronizing btw!

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Well what I think is that the lads on this forum are inclined to see feminist ideas as almost entirely without merit.

I condensed it all down neat and tidy for you!

Why are you continually sidestepping? You'd make an excellent politician... (that's not a compliment either)

El_Duderino 09

ThinkProgress wrote:

Why are you continually sidestepping? You'd make an excellent politician... (that's not a compliment either)

Sidestepping what? I gathered a few opinions and said what I think as a result if it.

What do you want to know?

El_Duderino 09

ThinkProgress wrote:

^^An excellent example of a strong and opinionated woman.

You seem impressed by this woman above but I've no idea of the context of what she's responding to. Random to bring it up in this discussion.

Have I pretended to know what it's like to be. Woman? Is that why you thought that quote was relevant?