Bob Dylan - Nobel Prize for Literature

davedanon

If I see ONE more post about how Dylan can't/couldn't sing/doesn't have a good voice.

JESUS H. F*CKING CHRIST.

Your Face

davedanon wrote: »

If I see ONE more post about how Dylan can't/couldn't sing/doesn't have a good voice.

JESUS H. F*CKING CHRIST.

That Bob Dylan, he can't sing. Its his voice, its not good.

davedanon

Your Mum.

Harvey Normal

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

But why must it be anything? The lines between art forms are porous and shifting, that is the whole point of giving him the prize. I don't understand the Puritanism around what literature "must" be and what music "must" be, these are grey areas and the best art has always played on those borders and questioned them. Wanting everything to be in its box doesn't render it, and there's nothing that "must" be the case about art. And that isn't invalidated by the guy posting after you with the actual dictionary definition of literature. Not to be high handed about it but if art and its meaning is to be bound by dictionary definitions it will never change. The whole point here is that Dylan changed how we think about what is literary and what isn't, what the reach of literature can be, culturally and artistically, he changed its remit. To exclude him because he didn't fit the received definition of literature is to completely miss the point.

you know there's nothing new about putting words to music, Dylan just did it in a way that appealed to a certain hippy demographic. And apparently the nobel prize committee until he snubbed them.

I am not saying that lyrics can't be poetry - my first post on the thread cited raglan road as an example of poetry later put to music. I just don't think that Dylan has produced poetry. (Tambourine man is the nearest).

Leonard Cohen has though. Suzanne reads like a poem. Read this out loud.


And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water
And he spent a long time watching from his lonely wooden tower
And when he knew for certain only drowning men could see him
He said all men will be sailors then until the sea shall free them
But he himself was broken, long before the sky would open
Forsaken, almost human, he sank beneath your wisdom like a stone

Harvey Normal

Your Face wrote: »

That Bob Dylan, he can't sing. Its his voice, its not good.

Not a great singer.

Realt Dearg Sec

Harvey Normal wrote: »

you know there's nothing new about putting words to music, /i]

Again, that's not my point at all. I'm simply saying that the literary merit of the words is NOT derived solely from their existence independent of the music, in fact as I said in an earlier post, their meaning, or more exactly the feeling they evoke, emerges out of a complex interaction of word and music, they aren't separable and the literary and musical parts are not discrete. As I've said, whether you think he's good enough to have won is another argument entirely, but the idea that he simply shouldn't qualify because music is not literature is problematic because, when it comes to Dylan, music very much is literature. You cited Leonard Cohen, and I would agree with you about him. If you're arguing he's better than Dylan, that's one thing (I disagree though), but if you're arguing he merits the award because his work can stand alone as poetry? I don't think it's relevant, and the Nobel committee didn't give Dylan the award that basis, I would imagine.

Nothing against Cohen there btw, I love Leonard Cohen.

davedanon

Cohen in many ways is a better writer than Dylan, and is in fact possibly a better candidate for Nobel Laureate. The reason some of Cohen's lyrics sound more like poetry than Dylan's is simple. Cohen is a, published, poet. Dylan writes song lyrics. They are not poetry. Poetry is meant to be heard in isolation. Raglan Road is a rare example of a poem not losing any of its power for being conjoined with music. It's not usually the case, in the same way that a really good book rarely translates into a good film, or when you get poetry and music combined in a way that somehow diminishes both, as with the Waterboys incorporation of the The Stolen Child into a tune of their own.

The point is, literature, poetry, and music lyrics are all separate disciplines. It's particularly unfair to hold music lyrics to the standards of poetry. The rhythms of poetry can be variously structured or loose, but exist on their own. They have merely to be spoken or read. It's a different matter when you're A) trying to get peoples' feet tapping, and attempting to insert your words into the rigid frame of a song structure without losing meaning or compromising the music. Lyrics can rarely exist on their own, and it is nearly always unfair asking them to. With some notable exceptions, of course.

daithi7

"Shelter From The Storm"
(lyrics by Bob Dylan)

'Twas in another lifetime one of toil and blood
When blackness was a virtue, the road was full of mud
I came in from the wilderness a creature void of form
"Come in," she said,
"I'll give you shelter from the storm."

And if I pass this way again you can rest assured
I'll always do my best for her on that I give my word
In a world of steel-eyed death and men who are fighting to be warm
"Come in," she said,
"I'll give you shelter from the storm."

Not a word was spoke between us there was little risk involved
Everything up to that point had been left unresolved
Try imagining a place where it's always safe and warm
"Come in," she said,
"I'll give you shelter from the storm."

I was burned out from exhaustion buried in the hail
Poisoned in the bushes and blown out on the trail
Hunted like a crocodile ravaged in the corn
"Come in," she said,
"I'll give you shelter from the storm."

Suddenly I turned around and she was standing there
With silver bracelets on her wrists and flowers in her hair
She walked up to me so gracefully and took my crown of thorns
"Come in," she said,
"I'll give you shelter from the storm."

Now there's a wall between us something there's been lost
I took too much for granted, I got my signals crossed
Just to think that it all began on an uneventful morn
"Come in," she said,
"I'll give you shelter from the storm."

Well the deputy walks on hard nails and the preacher rides a mount
But nothing really matters much it's doom alone that counts
And the one-eyed undertaker he blows a futile horn
"Come in," she said,
"I'll give you shelter from the storm."

I've heard newborn babies wailing like a mourning dove
And old men with broken teeth stranded without love
Do I understand your question man, is it hopeless and forlorn?
"Come in," she said,
"I'll give you shelter from the storm."

In a little hilltop village they gambled for my clothes
I bargained for salvation and she gave me a lethal dose
I offered up my innocence, I got repaid with scorn
"Come in," she said,
"I'll give you shelter from the storm."

Well I'm living in a foreign country but I'm bound to cross the line
Beauty walks a razor's edge someday I'll make it mine
If I could only turn back the clock to when God and her were born
"Come in," she said,
"I'll give you shelter from the storm."

SeanieMon

Ah lads, arguing about who's better than who. It's boards.ie, not senior infants.

seenitall

"All Along The Watchtower" has always been one of my favourite ever songs. Mostly because of those two shady characters, the joker and the thief And Jimi Hendrix. And "Withnail and I".

"Things have changed" is another one I like.

/Thus endeth my low-brow contribution to the thread.

ShaneU

The only album Bob really sang well on was Nashville Skyline, it was more of a traditional country album. But obviously his lyrics are what won him this award. Anyone who is put off listening to him because of his voice should check out Nashville Skyline.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ww1gt6MHJRA

.

HellSquirrel

The Highwayman and The Stolen Child, both sung by Loreena McKennitt (although not her poetry) are both examples of stories that can stand on their own merits as poetry or work well in song. Although The Stolen Child is a wee bit treacly.

I like The Boxer (Simon and Garfunkel) as well as a song with a story to it, which I think is what resonates with me as poetry.

Jawgap

Don't know if it's been mentioned, but Seamus Heaney lauded Eminem

Speaking prior the start of the Prince of Wales' educational summer school in Norwich, the poet was asked by journalists whether today's popular music had any artists capable of inspiring interest in poetry and lyrics in the way that John Lennon and Bob Dylan did back in the 1960s and 1970s.

Mr Heaney, a former professor of poetry at Oxford University and winner of the 1995 Nobel prize for literature, replied: "There is this guy Eminem. He has created a sense of what is possible. He has sent a voltage around his generation."

He added: "He has done this not just through his subversive attitude but also his verbal energy."

Elliott S

davedanon wrote: »

1) People saying "ok, his voice isn't great" are idiots.

davedanon wrote: »

If I see ONE more post about how Dylan can't/couldn't sing/doesn't have a good voice.

JESUS H. F*CKING CHRIST.

Well, I have no issues at all with him being awarded the prize. My own comments on this thread re: his voice just amount to that people might not delve into his music because of it. The initial reaction for some people I have known is to switch off straight away after hearing it and not realise that it suits his music. It's understandable, we all have a limited amount of free time and so many things to read and watch and listen to, vying for our attention, so if something puts you off straight away, I can see why you wouldn't bother to perservere. And if people don't enjoy his voice, that's not wrong. You enjoy someone's singing voice or you don't. The lyrics are separate from that, of course, but it's understandable that when someone is considering a musician, they think of the sounds they make.

daithi7

"All Along The Watchtower"
by Bob Dylan)

There must be some way out of here
Said the joker to the thief
There's too much confusion
I can't get no relief
Businessmen, they drink my wine
Plowmen dig my earth
None will level on the line
Nobody any of it is worth

No reason to get excited
The thief, he kindly spoke
There are many here among us
Who feel that life is but a joke
But you and I, we've been through that
And this is not our fate
So let us not talk falsely now
The hour is getting late

All along the watchtower
Princes kept the view
While all the women came and went
Barefoot servants, too
Outside in the distance
A wildcat did growl
Two riders were approaching
And the wind began to howl

HellSquirrel

Elliott S wrote: »

Well, I have no issues at all with him being awarded the prize. My own comments on this thread re: his voice just amount to that people might not delve into his music because of it. The initial reaction for some people I have known is to switch off straight away after hearing it and not realise that it suits his music. It's understandable, we all have a limited amount of free time and so many things to read and watch and listen to, vying for our attention, so if something puts you off straight away, I can see why you wouldn't bother to perservere. And if people don't enjoy his voice, that's not wrong. You enjoy someone's singing voice or you don't. The lyrics are separate from that, of course, but it's understandable that when someone is considering a musician, they think of the sounds they make.

Pretty much, yeah. I actually haven't listened to a lot of music with lyrics in a fair while now, other than stuff that I can sing in the car. But Bob Dylan has a particular drone in his voice that just annoys me, and I have just about zero chance of understanding what he's going on about, so I switch over as soon as I get the chance, usually after thinking "Who's this gloomy streak, sounds like a country Morrissey."

From the lyrics posted though, his songwriting is good. I think for All Along The Watchtower, I prefer the ..Jimi Hendrix? version. It's at least intelligible!

daithi7

"Jokerman"
(Bob Dylan)

Standing on the water, casting your bread
While the eyes of the idol with the iron head are glowing
Distant ships sailing into the mist
You were born with a snake in both of your fists while a hurricane was blowing
Freedom just around the corner for you
But with truth so far off, what good will it do.

Jokerman dance to the nightingale tune
Bird fly high by the light of the moon
Oh, oh, oh, Jokerman.

So swiftly the sun sets in the sky
You rise up and say goodbye to no one
Fools rush in where angels fear to tread
Both of their futures, so full of dread, you don't show one
Shedding off one more layer of skin
Keeping one step ahead of the persecutor within.

Jokerman dance to the nightingale tune
Bird fly high by the light of the moon
Oh, oh, oh, Jokerman.

You're a man of the mountains, you can walk on the clouds
Manipulator of crowds, you're a dream twister
You're going to Sodom and Gomorrah
But what do you care ? Ain't nobody there would want marry your sister
Friend to the martyr, a friend to the woman of shame
You look into the fiery furnace, see the rich man without any name.

Jokerman dance to the nightingale tune
Bird fly high by the light of the moon
Oh, oh, oh, Jokerman.

Well, the Book of Leviticus and Deuteronomy
The law of the jungle and the sea are your only teachers
In the smoke of the twilight on a milk-white steed
Michelangelo indeed could've carved out your features
Resting in the fields, far from the turbulent space
Half asleep near the stars with a small dog licking your face.

Jokerman dance to the nightingale tune
Bird fly high by the light of the moon
Oh, oh, oh, Jokerman.

Well, the rifleman's stalking the sick and the lame
Preacherman seeks the same, who'll get there first is uncertain
Nightsticks and water cannons, tear gas, padlocks
Molotov cocktails and rocks behind every curtain
False-hearted judges dying in the webs that they spin
Only a matter of time 'til the night comes stepping in.

Jokerman dance to the nightingale tune
Bird fly high by the light of the moon
Oh, oh, oh, Jokerman.

It's a shadowy world, skies are slippery gray
A woman just gave birth to a prince today and dressed him in scarlet
He'll put the priest in his pocket, put the blade to the heat
Take the motherless children off the street
And place them at the feet of a harlot
Oh, Jokerman, you know what he wants
Oh, Jokerman, you don't show any response.

Jokerman dance to the nightingale tune
Bird fly high by the light of the moon
Oh, oh, oh, Jokerman.

Yamanoto

"Agadoo"
(Black Lace)

Agadoo doo doo push pineapple shake the tree
Agadoo doo doo push pineapple grind coffee
To the left to the right jump up and down and to the knees
Come and dance every night sing with a hula melody

I met a hula mistress somewhere in Waikiki
Where she was selling pineapple playing ukulele
And when I went to the girl come on and teach me to sway
She laughed and whispered to me yes come tonight to the bay

The lovely beach and the sky
The moon of Hawaii
The rum calypso sarong
We'll all be singing this song

Agadoo doo doo push pineapple shake the tree
Agadoo doo doo push pineapple grind coffee
To the left to the right jump up and down and to the knees
Come and dance every night sing with a hula melody

Agadoo doo doo push pineapple shake the tree
Agadoo doo doo push pineapple grind coffee
To the left to the right jump up and down and to the knees
Come and dance every night sing with a hula melody

Agadoo doo doo push pineapple shake the tree
Agadoo doo doo push pineapple grind coffee
To the left to the right jump up and down and to the knees
Come and dance every night sing with a hula melody

Then down on the shore
They gather romance
She showed me much more
Not only to dance

Agadoo doo doo push pineapple shake the tree
Agadoo doo doo push pineapple grind coffee
To the left to the right jump up and down and to the knees
Come and dance every night sing with a hula melody

Agadoo doo doo push pineapple shake the tree
Agadoo doo doo push pineapple grind coffee
To the left to the right jump up and down and to the knees
Come and dance every night sing with a hula melody

The lovely beach and the sky
The moon of Hawaii
The rum calypso sarong
We'll all be singing this song

Agadoo doo doo push pineapple shake the tree
Agadoo doo doo push pineapple grind coffee
To the left to the right jump up and down and to the knees
Come and dance every night sing with a hula melody

Agadoo doo doo push pineapple shake the tree
Agadoo doo doo push pineapple grind coffee
To the left to the right jump up and down and to the knees
Come and dance every night sing with a hula melody

Agadoo doo doo push pineapple shake the tree
Agadoo doo doo push pineapple grind coffee
To the left to the right jump up and down and to the knees
Come and dance every night sing with a hula melody

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Olishi4

I really love the lyrics from the song Changing of the Guards. Its the first song on the album Street Legal, which is an amazing album.

Not sure if it's poetry or not and it's hard to figure out exactly what its about but the imagery portrayed through the lyrics of that song are really beautiful.

Radiosonde

Dylan has finally broken his silence. He plans to collect the prize.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/the-filter/world-exclusive-bob-dylan---ill-be-at-the-nobel-prize-ceremony-i/

Cartouche

I dont know what the line is between lyrics and poetry but read his words and tell me its not poetic

BlaasForRafa

Kurt Vonnegut probably wouldn't have approved of this award, he called Dylan "the worst poet alive" in an interview back in 1991.

And it took proper musicians to make his songs and lyrics listenable

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3ChFfKsaXI

fryup

i just heard on the radio that receiver of a noble price gets 900k

i was always under the impression that its just an award albeit a prestigious one, but surely the prize money cheapens it??

Realt Dearg Sec

fryup wrote: »

i just heard on the radio that receiver of a noble price gets 900k

i was always under the impression that its just an award albeit a prestigious one, but surely the prize money cheapens it??

No, if it had no money that would be cheap. 900k makes it valuable.

davedanon

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Kurt Vonnegut probably wouldn't have approved of this award, he called Dylan "the worst poet alive" in an interview back in 1991.

And it took proper musicians to make his songs and lyrics listenable

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3ChFfKsaXI

Utter tosh, to be fair. Dylan's not a poet, he's a songwriter. "Proper musicians"....what? Meaningless rubbish.

davedanon

fryup wrote: »

i just heard on the radio that receiver of a noble price gets 900k

i was always under the impression that its just an award albeit a prestigious one, but surely the prize money cheapens it??

Nobel, not noble. Named after Alfred Nobel, who also invented dynamite.

And 'prize', not 'price'.

Tombo2001

davedanon wrote: »

Nobel, not noble. Named after Alfred Nobel, who also invented dynamite.

And 'prize', not 'price'.

FFS.

Apostrophes on the prize/ price.

And not on the Nobel/ noble.

Some consistency would be helpful.

:pac:

davedanon

Sorry if it's hard for you to follow.

davedanon

Actually, come to think of it, 900k (in most currencies) is a noble price.

Realt Dearg Sec

Is there a Nobel Prize in grammar pedantry?

osarusan

We heard you the first time FFS.

Realt Dearg Sec

osarusan wrote: »

We heard you the first time FFS.

Relax, there's a problem with the mobile site. Unwad your jocks.

josip

This thread is becoming a juxtaposition.

osarusan

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Relax, there's a problem with the mobile site. Unwad your jocks.

It was just a joke, always likely to look silly after you deleted the duplicates.

Realt Dearg Sec

osarusan wrote: »

It was just a joke, always likely to look silly after you deleted the duplicates.

Originally I was going to just delete them and not say anything at all.

Realt Dearg Sec

josip wrote: »

This thread is becoming a juxtaposition.

Which is ironic because I was at a bus stop at the time.

davedanon

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Which is ironic because I was at a bus stop at the time.

Erm, why's that ironic, exactly?

osarusan

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Originally I was going to just delete them and not say anything at all.

I was thinking about posting my comment three times too.

buried

And how many posts
must a poster post
before they post
the post
X3

The answer my freind
is growin in the bin
the answer is
growin in the bin

Realt Dearg Sec

So Bob won't be collecting it in the end.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/16/entertainment/bob-dylan-unable-to-attend-nobel-prize-ceremony/index.html

Not surprised, would be hard to picture him collecting it.