CRU (formerly CER) review of charging infrastructure

isnottheword

BoatMad wrote: »

yes I know, the issue is that in its practical usage and the fact that you cant compare every blockchain , the reality is the practical implementation reveals weaknesses

I'll try not to go further offtopic but blockchain has been suggested as a solution for such similar situations, including car sharing when ultimately we all bail in to that in the future.

Bear in mind any centralised system is likely to be more prone to hacking than this - eg. your ecar account once it becomes pay - and every other such account you already hold.

KCross

BoatMad wrote: »

quite easily tied to a GPS reporting car usage via telemetry , the Leaf does this at the moment

there are several other technology options as well including automated tolling etc etc

I can't see how anything the car reports being of use for a few reasons.

Car telemetry would just be tapped into and messed with to avoid paying

Old cars won't have it

New cars will take years to have it standardised across the manufacturers

Governments would require it sooner, not later.



Tolls and congestion charges seem the only medium term solution if road pricing were to be put into practice.

BoatMad

KCross wrote: »

I can't see how anything the car reports being of use for a few reasons.

Car telemetry would just be tapped into and messed with to avoid paying

Old cars won't have it

New cars will take years to have it standardised across the manufacturers

Governments would require it sooner, not later.



Tolls and congestion charges seem the only medium term solution if road pricing were to be put into practice.

anyway cheap ANPR is easy to do and could be deployed nationwide. At the end of the day the user pays principle is better then trying to recover revenue from electricity ( which is practically impossible anyway )

Calahonda52

If the card security was beefed up enough, then one idea is to make the CP network like the rest of the [RAB] grid and allow the virtual users of the network such as Energia and Panda Power add the CPs as a third product offering: e.g. gas, home elec and CP usage, with it added to your home bill, so Day, Night, CP

cros13

Calahonda52 wrote: »

If the card security was beefed up enough, then one idea is to make the CP network like the rest of the [RAB] grid and allow the virtual users of the network such as Energia and Panda Power add the CPs as a third product offering: e.g. gas, home elec and CP usage, with it added to your home bill, so Day, Night, CP

That plus a fixed charge of ~€2 per rapid charge to contribute toward the infrastructure cost is what I proposed in my submission to the CER.

goz83

Calahonda52 wrote: »

If the card security was beefed up enough, then one idea is to make the CP network like the rest of the [RAB] grid and allow the virtual users of the network such as Energia and Panda Power add the CPs as a third product offering: e.g. gas, home elec and CP usage, with it added to your home bill, so Day, Night, CP

Ecotricity offer their customers free charging. Good incentive I think. But your suggestion would work very well I think.

Calahonda52

Any intel on what the garages like Applegreen and Topaz pay for the FCPs to be placed on their forecourts with the ancillary business it creates.
AG could offer points on their loyalty card, 1 per watt:D

BoatMad

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Any intel on what the garages like Applegreen and Topaz pay for the FCPs to be placed on their forecourts with the ancillary business it creates.
AG could offer points on their loyalty card, 1 per watt:D

They don't pay anything

Dardania

BoatMad wrote: »

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Any intel on what the garages like Applegreen and Topaz pay for the FCPs to be placed on their forecourts with the ancillary business it creates.
AG could offer points on their loyalty card, 1 per watt:D

They don't pay anything

from recollection of working on the first 6 AG stations on the motorways, the developer put in the pipe ducts, and the free issued mini pillar- ESB supplied the rest.

In saying that, there are ESB substations with loads of capacity at each station that the developer funded...so there was that contribution anyway


At that time (2009/2010?) there was practically no EVs on the road.

KCross

BoatMad wrote: »

The CER are caught in reality between EU rules that forbid it subsidising activities that are not part of the Core Network. This was " got round" by describing the existing project as a R&D project.

Now that project is officially finished , and the CER cannot expand or commit operational monies to the charger network

However it has been argued by people like Eamon Ryan TD, that the EU rules are flexible enough to be " bent" to allow continued funding

The EU has basically stated that EV public charging must be provided on a commercial basis

( many thing the EU rules on are far too neoliberal in my view )

The Irish state now needs to step up to to the plate and subsidise the network for a medium term , The 120 million in fines beginning next year, provides a lot of head room !!!




http://www.irishevowners.ie/june2017-meeting-oireachtas/

That video was worth watching, specifically to hear from the CER and ESB.

Some interesting points I noted:

- The CER(from 28mins and 1hr26mins) do seem to want to wash their hands of it. They were at pains to point out that they are an electricity regulator and not a transport regulator.
- The CER don't appear at all in favour of option 1 (which is to add the infrastructure to the RAB) on the basis that the EU wouldn't allow it.
- However, good to hear they will work with the Dept to make a decision. I got the impression they want to take direction from the dept rather than make a completely independent decision but they don't foresee the electricity bill payers paying for it via DUoS(as has been the case). That suggests to me the funding needs to come from the Dept via a new budget policy and that also seemed to be what ESB were hinting at.
- They also said the CER decision is to be made "this summer" (1hr26min) so that buys them another month and the dept have their public consultation in late July. The CER had said before they would make a decision in Q2.


- It was good to hear ESB concede the infrastructure is not ready for commercialisation(34min and 1hr36min) at this stage. So, either that was lip service or they have woken up to some realities since they proposed their charges in 2015.
- They suggested working with the dept and owners etc to decide when it would be commercialised(suggested 25k EV's) and they would run it in the meantime on a "pass through basis". I presume thats some accounting term. Maybe it means the money required to support it passes through their hands from the govt.
- ESB said rough cost of installing an FCP is €50k and €10k for an SCP (1hr34min)


Seems to me there is a good chance that the CER will hand it to the ESB with govt funding to prop it up until it is commercially viable.

Well if the Government are to fund the network then we'll have to wait until October for funds to be allocated then it will be at least 2018 before new chargers are installed making the network 2 years behind.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

I got the impression they want to take direction from the dept.

That's the overwhelming impression I got after seeing large chunks of the video

There is no leadership / no ownership at all. Now there's me hoping our new young progressive Taoiseach will take this one on...

KCross

Deleted User wrote: »

Well if the Government are to fund the network then we'll have to wait until October for funds to be allocated then it will be at least 2018 before new chargers are installed making the network 2 years behind.

According to the ESB its a world class network! It probably is in some respects (one card, 24/7 support etc) but the lack of redundancy and blackspots and poor locations definitely takes the "world class" tag off it.

If the govt decide to fund it it will be to fund the Opex only, imo, as the ESB is whinging about the ongoing costs to support it which is coming out of their funds.

I doubt the govt will fund many new chargers(if any). The dept are much more likely to put their funds (or lack thereof) into cheap incentives (motor tax, free tolls, parking etc) and keep the VRT and grant etc funded.

unkel

New chargers are cheap enough though at EUR50k. How many double ones do we need to give us a coverage of 1 every 40km or so on all National roads and motorways? Say 80? (just guessing here, I'd love for someone to do a quick analysis on this). That would cost just 80 * 2 * 50k, so EUR8 million. A tiny drop in the country's budget. And remember we do need to invest to avoid more penalties. So the money is not just "wasted"

KCross

unkel wrote: »

New chargers are cheap enough though at EUR50k. How many double ones do we need to give us a coverage of 1 every 40km or so on all National roads and motorways? Say 80? (just guessing here, I'd love for someone to do a quick analysis on this). That would cost just 80 * 2 * 50k, so EUR8 million. A tiny drop in the country's budget. And remember we do need to invest to avoid more penalties. So the money is not just "wasted"

Unfortunately the ESB have some stupid way of calculating how many chargers are required per EV and have come to the conclusion that we have enough chargers for 20k or 50k EV's already, can't remember which.

They really do not have their fingers on the pulse of the users.

unkel

Another reason this needs to be taken completely out of the hands of ESB / CER. Government is directly responsible here. They are the ones having to pay the big fines for being behind. They will need to invest and direct the ESB what to do (and give them the money to do it)

Orebro

Why does the wheel need to be reinvented in Ireland - could we not just follow the Norwegian model? They had to start somewhere too!

KCross

KCross wrote: »

Unfortunately the ESB have some stupid way of calculating how many chargers are required per EV and have come to the conclusion that we have enough chargers for 20k or 50k EV's already, can't remember which.

They really do not have their fingers on the pulse of the users.

Yeah but wait until they have control of the network then hopefully they'll get the finger out, they need to think long term now and install 100+ Kw chargers at least. And install the 45 Kw DC instead of AC haha. They'll be the new slow chargers.

BoatMad

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yeah but wait until they have control of the network then hopefully they'll get the finger out, they need to think long term now and install 100+ Kw chargers at least. And install the 45 Kw DC instead of AC haha. They'll be the new slow chargers.

I would have no faith in expecting the esb to expand the network in advance of significant EV takeup , which could be a long time

Nor would I expect any subsidy to forestall commercialisation , it would merely be eaten up by the esb

The network simply cannot be handled carts Blanche to the esb , without specific guarantees a timetable to commercialisation and initial agreement on a pricing regime

If you look at the ESBs contribution , it was basically a big whinge fest , these idiots have no stake in EVs , they just see a potential money grab

ED E

If the Govt were so inclined they could legislate CPs into a USO and apply geographic and or pop coverage requirements to the SMP player (ESB). That is unless the unions saw fit to block it.

We need competition and a legal requirement that one access card for all companies but there's not nearly enough electric cars to justify even one company at this time.

I haven't heard yet about the German car companies installing charge points here, I heard rumours that they'd be installing points this year.

KCross

BoatMad wrote: »

I don't see any commercial competition arriving here once esb has a virtual monopoly position , I effect both controlling the grid and the chargers

We have firvall the right reasons ended up in a bad place

Do I take it you believe the CER decision is more likely to be the "hand the network to the ESB unregulated" option?

BoatMad

KCross wrote: »

Do I take it you believe the CER decision is more likely to be the "hand the network to the ESB unregulated" option?

Yes

The consultation was in reality a sham

(A) the CER have indicated clearly at the Dail committe that they believe they cannot under EU rules place the network in the RAB

(b) No third party commercial interest is evident


That's leaves Hobson's choice , hand it to the esb in an unregulated manner

Not good at all in my opinion

liamog

Given it's value, would they not have to put it out to tender?

ELM327

BoatMad wrote: »

Yes

The consultation was in reality a sham

(A) the CER have indicated clearly at the Dail committe that they believe they cannot under EU rules place the network in the RAB

(b) No third party commercial interest is evident


That's leaves Hobson's choice , hand it to the esb in an unregulated manner

Not good at all in my opinion

Why does "hand it to the esb" have to be unregulated?
Can they not hand it to the ESB but regulate it? Why is that discounted?

cros13

BoatMad wrote: »

(A) the CER have indicated clearly at the Dail committe that they believe they cannot under EU rules place the network in the RAB

Which committee were they before?

EDIT: nevermind... found it: http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/Debates%20Authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/committeetakes/CC22017062000002?opendocument#B00300

liamog

Are charger networks treated as RAB in other countries, I think we'll be hard pressed to plead a special case either way.

cros13

liamog wrote: »

Are charger networks treated as RAB in other countries, I think we'll be hard pressed to plead a special case either way.

The only equivalent network in the world is estonia's ELMO network that is state owned with a contract for the operation of the network competed out.

There are charges on their network with pay as you go pricing in 10 minute segments that tops out at €4.50/60-minute rapid session. Monthly plans go up to €30/month but that includes 150kWh of charging after which a fixed €1.20 per rapid charge of up to 60 minutes is charged.

BoatMad

liamog wrote: »

Are charger networks treated as RAB in other countries, I think we'll be hard pressed to plead a special case either way.

No , but why elucidate an option that turns out isn't an option

Water John

This outlook on Grid in the UK is interesting. Looking at 350Kw chargepoints capable of doing a standard EV in 4 mins and a 90Kwh battery in 12 mins.

Obviously a higher % of car owners don't have a parking space in the UK. they also question upping the fuse on domestic supplies. This may be a bit of kite flying rather than a real issue, to support their preferred option.

Would this charge level, damage the present generation of batteries? I presume all such batteries would need cooling systems.

https://www.cleanenergynews.co.uk/news/transport/super-fast-ev-forecourts-the-solution-to-grid-pinch-points-national-grid-sa

cros13

Well the latest commercially available rapid chargers in that range support from 322kW (efacec HV350) to 475kW (Tritium Veefil-PK).

Probably the first car capable of charging in that range will be Porsche's Mission E or one of Tesla's next designs.

You need to account for the practicalities of the size of (and cooling of) cable needed to carry that kind of current at the expected ~800-1000V and also for the ramp up and ramp down.

I think the reasonable limit for the medium term for passenger vehicles will be ~400kW for a 90-120kWh pack.
With ramp up and down you'd be able to get 60kWh from the rapid charger in 10 minutes or so with manageable stresses on the cabling and pack.

Water John

Thanks for that. Was wondering about the batteries ability to withstand the fast charge being used on a regular basis, at this level.

unkel

cros13 wrote: »

With ramp up and down you'd be able to get 60kWh from the rapid charger in 10 minutes

So without having to go in and queue and pay, not really any longer than it takes today to get petrol / diesel. There are some of these chargers installed and working already and the cars that can take 350kW are what, maybe 2-3 years away?

liamog

Interesting video that looks at charging rates. There are certain assumptions made, but at least they are called out.

A 320kW charger running with 800V 400A could do ~350km in 10 minutes.

BoatMad

Water John wrote: »

Thanks for that. Was wondering about the batteries ability to withstand the fast charge being used on a regular basis, at this level.

Li technology can actually withstand 20 C charging, so in theory a 50 kWh battery could be charged at 1000kW !.

The Radio control boys are often using very high rates on LiPo , hence the recommendations to charge in a fireproof box!

the issue is controlling battery run-away

at present practically 2C is close to a functional limit , i.e. 60 kw on a 30 Kwh battery etc , otherwise significant battery cooling is needed as well as significant battery management

BoatMad

unkel wrote: »

So without having to go in and queue and pay, not really any longer than it takes today to get petrol / diesel. There are some of these chargers installed and working already and the cars that can take 350kW are what, maybe 2-3 years away?

charging at 350 kw ?, Id say longer then that , there are also very serious grid issues to be solved

Id say 10 years myself

liamog

The Ioniq charges at up to 2.5C (70kW). I'd like to hope the next-gen of EVs don't regress.

unkel

So a budget EV has 30kWh in 2017, 40kWh in 2018 and about 60kWh in 2019.

2.5 * 60 = 150kW within 2 years. Another few years from there to 350kW, but surely not more than 8?

It doesn't just have to take a doubling in battery Kwh to allow the battery take twice the charging current, a chemistry advancement could achieve this but as it is now ev batteries there is a trade off, something's got to give.

As BoatMad mentioned in a previous post here or in another thread, LiPo offers extremely high charge and discharge rates, some of the RC LiPo cells can charge at 15C and discharge at 90 C (continuous) with no form of cooling. The downside is shorter life cycle, though now over 600 cycles compared to about 300 just 5 years ago and they are dangerous and can't be charged or stored in the house unless in a guaranteed fireproof location though they are more stable today I still would not ever trust them.

When I was messing around with my Ebike projects I strung some packs in series then in parallel and make a very high powered pack that was tiny, it was 60 V 10ah capable of propelling me to 40 mph with the motor I had but the acceleration was mental pulling 10 Kw peak all on a mountain bike and with only cheap 20 C LiPo cells.

No other battery cell available to buy at the time and probably still today can offer high power ebike projects in such a small size.

cros13

I think up to 4C is achievable for automotive cells in the 5 year time frame without too much in the way of tradeoff.
That's also roughly what Porsche is looking at for the Mission E. 80% charge of a 90kWh pack in 15 minutes.

And 4C would allow for the 120kWh temperature controlled pack in my example to charge 60kWh in 10 minutes with ramp up and down.

unkel

So 5 years rather than 10. But maybe for more upmarket cars (and not so much econoboxes). That said, 60kWh will give a lot of range for your 10 minute stop. Not as quick as fossil fuel just yet, but a reasonable enough compromise. And who wants to drive for 300-350km without getting out for a quick break anyway?

Water John

If it halves one's motoring fuel costs then, 15 mins, once or twice a week shouldn't be an issue for any body.
As fast as refueling with petrol/diesel, is not the criteria, I would set.
It just needs to be quick enough, and accessible, not to be a PITA.
How you scientifically measure that amount of time???

unkel

Yeah the 5-10 minutes that I have mentioned here before (as a target), might just be a tad optimistic, going forward when even econobox EVs have far bigger batteries than they have now. But 10 minutes or a bit more I would have no problem with, even if I had to charge a couple of times in one day on a long return trip.

cros13

Well in fairness with 400-500km range EVs the majority of Irish owners would be rapid charging 4 or 5 times a year tops because home charging will meet 95%+ of their needs.

It's really apartment-dwellers, people with only on-street parking and tourists that will be depending on rapids. And taken together those groups are a minority.

BoatMad

unkel wrote: »

So 5 years rather than 10. But maybe for more upmarket cars (and not so much econoboxes). That said, 60kWh will give a lot of range for your 10 minute stop. Not as quick as fossil fuel just yet, but a reasonable enough compromise. And who wants to drive for 300-350km without getting out for a quick break anyway?

+1

BoatMad

Water John wrote: »

If it halves one's motoring fuel costs then, 15 mins, once or twice a week shouldn't be an issue for any body.
As fast as refueling with petrol/diesel, is not the criteria, I would set.
It just needs to be quick enough, and accessible, not to be a PITA.
How you scientifically measure that amount of time???

The interesting thing will be to see if public fast charging will ever be commercially profitable ( both Capex and Op ex) , personally I have my doubts , as long as alternatives to public charging are available , home grid and off grid methods, this will seriously undermine the economics of public charging

Remember petrol and diesel refuelling works commercially , because its a closed shop , you cant make the stuff at home, and you are forced to refuel in a " designated " facility , in essence creating a captive market

The same is not true for electricity , which is easily generated , and stored even by " amateurs "

Dardania

BoatMad wrote: »

Water John wrote: »

If it halves one's motoring fuel costs then, 15 mins, once or twice a week shouldn't be an issue for any body.
As fast as refueling with petrol/diesel, is not the criteria, I would set.
It just needs to be quick enough, and accessible, not to be a PITA.
How you scientifically measure that amount of time???

The interesting thing will be to see if public fast charging will ever be commercially profitable ( both Capex and Op ex) , personally I have my doubts , as long as alternatives to public charging are available , home grid and off grid methods, this will seriously undermine the economics of  public charging

Remember petrol and diesel refuelling works commercially , because  its a closed shop , you cant make the stuff at home, and you are forced to refuel in a " designated " facility , in essence creating a captive market

The same is not true for electricity , which is easily generated , and stored even by " amateurs "

The financial incentive is that public charging providers get ancillary income from you - similar to how reportedly Applegreen makes more profit from coffee than fuel.

BoatMad

Dardania wrote: »

The financial incentive is that public charging providers get ancillary income from you - similar to how reportedly Applegreen makes more profit from coffee than fuel.

it still remains to be seen if a purely commercial process can be achieved

Apple green makes more profit from coffee then fuel, but it still makes a profit from fuel

thats the point

Water John

Well the fuel side, isn't at a loss and draining profits, just not making a lot. Is that the bar by which FCPs will be installed? Profits from ancillary services?

BoatMad

Water John wrote: »

Well the fuel side, isn't at a loss and draining profits, just not making a lot. Is that the bar by which FCPs will be installed? Profits from ancillary services?

I cant see FCPs beings installed on the profits from coffee , no