CRU (formerly CER) review of charging infrastructure

Dardania

I reckon so. And that incentive will discourage public charge operators from charging you up too fast until they've made a profit from people during their charging sessions

cros13

Latest from CER:

The CER is currently in the process of developing its decision in relation to CER/16/286. The CER expects to publish a Decision Paper on the ESBN Electric Vehicle Pilot and Associated Assets shortly.

KCross

cros13 wrote: »

Latest from CER:

I got the same email! They went from saying end of Aug and now we are close to the end of Sept and they are saying "shortly".

My guess is they are waiting for the minister to make the decision for them.

If you're expecting anything in the budget forget it, the charging network won;t even be mentioned !

They're rather charge the tax payer 1.2 Billion for useless smart meters !

Dardania

Deleted User wrote: »

If you're expecting anything in the budget forget it, the charging network won;t even be mentioned !

They're rather charge the tax payer 1.2 Billion for useless smart meters !

Not to drag the thread too far off topic- any ideas of what these new meters will actually do from the consumers perspective? Be great if they could optimize power draw internally (e.g. signal to car when to take power for charging)

KCross

Dardania wrote: »

Not to drag the thread too far off topic- any ideas of what these new meters will actually do from the consumers perspective? Be great if they could optimize power draw internally (e.g. signal to car when to take power for charging)

I think they will just automatically provide meter readings via SIM cards to ESB Networks. They will do that 48 times a day and you will then be able to monitor your usage via a web portal of some kind.

I don't think they will do anything fancier than that.

The providers will, of course, be able to devise all sorts of additional tariffs around that data.

Dardania

KCross wrote: »

Dardania wrote: »

Not to drag the thread too far off topic- any ideas of what these new meters will actually do from the consumers perspective? Be great if they could optimize power draw internally (e.g. signal to car when to take power for charging)

I think they will just automatically provide meter readings via SIM cards to ESB Networks. They will do that 48 times a day and you will then be able to monitor your usage via a web portal of some kind.

I don't think they will do anything fancier than that.

The providers will, of course, be able to devise all sorts of additional tariffs around that data.

Half hour intervals - not the worst to get an idea of how you’re using power.

I’m wary to ask for one of the smart meters for the exact reason about additional tariffs - something tells me having a fry up and a cup of tea at 6pm on a wet December evening will be monetised. Might get away with it for a while as I only recently got a digital day/night meter fittted a few years ago.

You can buy energy monitors that connect to the meter, simple and much cheaper. And doesn't need to be sending data to anyone......

I submit my own meter reading.

This 1.2 Billion would go a very long way towards upgrading the charging infrastructure.

KCross

Dardania wrote: »

Half hour intervals - not the worst to get an idea of how you’re using power.

I’m wary to ask for one of the smart meters for the exact reason about additional tariffs - something tells me having a fry up and a cup of tea at 6pm on a wet December evening will be monetised. Might get away with it for a while as I only recently got a digital day/night meter fittted a few years ago.

There is also mention of this:

Additional functionality will be made available by ESBN through a Home Area Network (HAN). This will allow consumers to access real-time data on their household energy usage via a device in their home.

So maybe there will be the possibility of using this realtime data to drive anything you like.

Funding for FIT and grant for solar PV would be a much better idea !

BoatMad

KCross wrote: »

I got the same email! They went from saying end of Aug and now we are close to the end of Sept and they are saying "shortly".

My guess is they are waiting for the minister to make the decision for them.

I know whats going on, but Ill keep stum just for a few days

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

If you're expecting anything in the budget forget it, the charging network won;t even be mentioned !

They're rather charge the tax payer 1.2 Billion for useless smart meters !

The LEV taskforce ( combined DCCAE/DTTAS) are making a very detailed budget submission

They are asking fir several new incentives and potentially funding for a new interurban fast charger infrastructure.

Money is actually not the issue , ( the BIK incentive is very likely to be implemented )

n97 mini

Deleted User wrote: »

You can buy energy monitors that connect to the meter, simple and much cheaper. And doesn't need to be sending data to anyone......

I got one 18 months ago for €50 off Amazon. It doesn't even connect to the meter, it just "clamps" on the live and transmits wirelessly to the main unit in the house.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

Funding for FIT and grant for solar PV would be a much better idea !

not a chance, Im afraid, mores the pity

Dardania

BoatMad wrote: »

KCross wrote: »

I got the same email! They went from saying end of Aug and now we are close to the end of Sept and they are saying "shortly".

My guess is they are waiting for the minister to make the decision for them.

I know whats going on, but Ill keep stum just for a few days

BoatMad wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

If you're expecting anything in the budget forget it, the charging network won;t even be mentioned !

They're rather charge the tax payer 1.2 Billion for useless smart meters !

The LEV taskforce ( combined DCCAE/DTTAS) are making a very detailed budget submission

They are asking fir several new incentives and potentially funding for a new interurban fast charger infrastructure.

Money is actually not the issue , ( the BIK incentive is very likely to be implemented )

If (and maybe I'm reading between your lines too much) there's a good deal of coordination going on between DCCAE/DTTAS and possibly CER in making this decision, it sounds like there might some joined up thinking going on. Hopefully that's a positive.

ELM327

Dardania wrote: »

If (and maybe I'm reading between your lines too much) there's a good deal of coordination going on between DCCAE/DTTAS and possibly CER in making this decision, it sounds like there might some joined up thinking going on. Hopefully that's a positive.

Joiined up thinking?
This is Ireland, remember.
We will be left with a hobson schoice if you will, ESB given the network due to lack of interest, and then all the incentives won't matter because we will be priced out of runniing an EV

unkel

Cheer up ELM327, it's Friday morning

Everything does look FUBAR at the moment, but surely fast charging will get sorted or will improve within the next year or two.

Orebro

The minister didn't seem to be well up to date on his brief on Prime Time last night. He also seemed to be of the view that the place gets peppered with FCPs, whereas the ESB guy said the way forward was charging hubs on the motorways. And as usual, actually managed to bring the broadband rollout into the conversation at the end. Nicely done Denis!

KCross

Orebro wrote: »

The minister didn't seem to be well up to date on his brief on Prime Time last night. He also seemed to be of the view that the place gets peppered with FCPs, whereas the ESB guy said the way forward was charging hubs on the motorways. And as usual, actually managed to bring the broadband rollout into the conversation at the end. Nicely done Denis!

I didn't think he was so bad. He admitted the network was not good enough and said it needed investment. I read between the lines of that to mean that the govt will invest in it.

Im hopeful of a positive CER decision! Its Friday, im in a positive mental attitude!

BoatMad

ELM327 wrote: »

Joiined up thinking?
This is Ireland, remember.
We will be left with a hobson schoice if you will, ESB given the network due to lack of interest, and then all the incentives won't matter because we will be priced out of runniing an EV

Certainly DCCAE /DTTAS is now, late in the game acting as a coordinator , and yes CER seai ecars and DCCAE /DTTAS are all round the table

But yes CER decision is well flagged and it's Hobson choice

I can only hope ecars don't kill the goose but I'm not hopeful

BoatMad

I'll add more perspective Monday , when I have updated the IEVOA after our meeting today with DTTAS/DCCAE/CER/seai /ecars

BoatMad

KCross wrote: »

I didn't think he was so bad. He admitted the network was not good enough and said it needed investment. I read between the lines of that to mean that the govt will invest in it.

Im hopeful of a positive CER decision! Its Friday, im in a positive mental attitude!

Yes gov is looking to invest. Personally they should scale back some of the purchase incentive and put the saving into chargers.

No, they need the purchase incentive, they should eliminate the 500 million of our money going to foreign wind energy companies or invest in wind energy ourselves or provide a FIT and incentives for micro generation.

BoatMad

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No, they need the purchase incentive, they should eliminate the 500 million of our money going to foreign wind energy companies or invest in wind energy ourselves or provide a FIT and incentives for micro generation.

There's s view that the purchase incentive is in part just propping up margins. ? Rather like house purchase incentives.

Whatever you'd like , the fact remains there is X amount of budget , first thing out of that is X sales * 10K , the rest is then available
So given that what would you do

( I was asked that directly to day )

I would put the 1.2 Billion they want to spend on smart meters and 500 million of the money they will give to wind energy investors to continue purchase incentives, improving the network and providing FIT and grant for micro generation.

ted1

Deleted User wrote: »

You can buy energy monitors that connect to the meter, simple and much cheaper. And doesn't need to be sending data to anyone......

I submit my own meter reading.

This 1.2 Billion would go a very long way towards upgrading the charging infrastructure.

Lots of meters are nearing end of life and will need replacement. Your clamp on energy monitor can’t adjust your bill for different time of use. With the additional non dispatchable renewables on the grid it needs to become dynamic and smart meters will allow this. They’ll let you charge your car, heat your water and charge your storage heater at 5pm for a low rate. Smart grids make it easier for utilities to better utilise their infrastructure and lower prices for the consumer.

unkel

+1

Smart meters are essential going forward when our use of electricity is set to double over the next few decades, while all or most of it will have to come from renewables.

BoatMad

ted1 wrote: »

Lots of meters are nearing end of life and will need replacement. Your clamp on energy monitor can’t adjust your bill for different time of use. With the additional non dispatchable renewables on the grid it needs to become dynamic and smart meters will allow this. They’ll let you charge your car, heat your water and charge your storage heater at 5pm for a low rate. Smart grids make it easier for utilities to better utilise their infrastructure and lower prices for the consumer.

You can heat water dynamically

You can't charge your car dynamically , it physically has to be " present "

Dynamic pricing doesn't suit cars largely used in a a 8-6 fixed timescale

Very little is done to give consumers better value or better service, all this is to make it better for utilities.

KCross

ted1 wrote: »

Lots of meters are nearing end of life and will need replacement. Your clamp on energy monitor can’t adjust your bill for different time of use. With the additional non dispatchable renewables on the grid it needs to become dynamic and smart meters will allow this. They’ll let you charge your car, heat your water and charge your storage heater at 5pm for a low rate. Smart grids make it easier for utilities to better utilise their infrastructure and lower prices for the consumer.

I agree, there is more to the smart meters than just reporting your usage. It has long term benefits for grid management. If you don't spend the money on new meters you will be spending it on new power plants.... a billion won't go far then.

Although, €1.2B is an awful lot of money for new meters. It seems ridiculously high to be honest.

BoatMad

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Very little is done to give consumers better value or better service, all this is to make it better for utilities.

Got it in one mad-lad we agree totally

liamog

BoatMad wrote: »

ted1 wrote: »

Lots of meters are nearing end of life and will need replacement. Your clamp on energy monitor can’t adjust your bill for different time of use. With the additional non dispatchable renewables on the grid it needs to become dynamic and smart meters will allow this. They’ll let you charge your car, heat your water and charge your storage heater at 5pm for a low rate. Smart grids make it easier for utilities to better utilise their infrastructure and lower prices for the consumer.

You can heat water dynamically

You can't charge your car dynamically , it physically has to be " present "

Dynamic pricing doesn't suit cars largely used in a a 8-6 fixed timescale

That's on the assumption that people will buy cars suited only to their daily need.

I need an Ioniq with 8kWh for my daily commute, my car has a capacity of 28kWh and will can cover my daily usage with its on board charger in 90 mins. Finding a slot in the 12 hours a day to find 90 mins of cheap power shouldn't be so hard.

BoatMad

liamog wrote: »

That's on the assumption that people will buy cars suited only to their daily need.

I need an Ioniq with 8kWh for my daily commute, my car has a capacity of 28kWh and will can cover my daily usage with its on board charger in 90 mins. Finding a slot in the 12 hours a day to find 90 mins of cheap power shouldn't be so hard.

Most savings accrue from using the asset
If you want commuters to switch from their diesels you need to be able to recharge fully at hone

liamog

You need to think past the current generation of cars, battery costs are dropping very quickly, its been forecast that EVs will reach price parity by 2022. At that point any saving on fuel stops having to cover the the extra cost.

Cars are not a rational financial purchase for the majority of the population.

BoatMad

liamog wrote: »

You need to think past the current generation of cars, battery costs are dropping very quickly, its been forecast that EVs will reach price parity by 2022. At that point any saving on fuel stops having to cover the the extra cost.

Cars are not a rational financial purchase for the majority of the population.

yes , I fully expect that the purchase inventories will be scaled back within 2-3 years

Civil servants would prefer to fund charger and running cost incentives then purchase price in reality

ted1

BoatMad wrote: »

ted1 wrote: »

Lots of meters are nearing end of life and will need replacement. Your clamp on energy monitor can’t adjust your bill for different time of use. With the additional non dispatchable renewables on the grid it needs to become dynamic and smart meters will allow this. They’ll let you charge your car, heat your water and charge your storage heater at 5pm for a low rate. Smart grids make it easier for utilities to better utilise their infrastructure and lower prices for the consumer.

You can heat water dynamically

You can't charge your car dynamically , it physically has to be " present "

Dynamic pricing doesn't suit cars largely used in a a 8-6 fixed timescale

Between 18:00 and 08:00 you can dynamically charge your car, possibly even sell back to the grid.

ted1

Deleted User wrote: »

Very little is done to give consumers better value or better service, all this is to make it better for utilities.

And being better for utilities , results in better services for the end user.

I’m involved in a upgrade project in a South American country where they are installing smart meters and the utility is seen lots of benefits including revenue protection, outage management etc and these will see less down and better prices for customers. The my have no renewables yet but will soon and the smart meters willl give them more options then

ted1

Deleted User wrote: »

Funding for FIT and grant for solar PV would be a much better idea !

No it wouldn’t, thst would only capture a small part of the market. Net metering would be much better than a FIT. Other users shouldn’t subsidies users who want to install PV. There’s also further options out here that are developing well that could disrupt the market such as blockchain.

There is an additional cost to cover people who install PV. And that’s their usage goes down but the cost of providing and maintaining a grid so that they can pull power in the evening actual increases.

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

Got it in one mad-lad we agree totally

There's a first !

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

Other users shouldn’t subsidies users who want to install PV.

There is an additional cost to cover people who install PV. And that’s their usage goes down but the cost of providing and maintaining a grid so that they can pull power in the evening actual increases.

Are you having a laugh or what Ted ?

What about the 500 million this year alone and more to go next year and the year after that, not to mention what we've already paid in the past to foreign wind energy investors , to line their pockets ?

At least a FIT and installation grant would go a long way towards funding Irish jobs and giving something back to that taxpayer !

ted1

Wind turbines don’t install themselves. Many of the wind farms are domestically owned. The newer Wind farms dint get A REFIT, that’s why they are looking at adding storage. Wind is the cheapest energy in the market and is reducing prices for the Irish tax payers

The only reason for reduced prices are lower oil and gas prices and more competition.

KCross

Deleted User wrote: »

No, they need the purchase incentive, they should eliminate the 500 million of our money going to foreign wind energy companies or invest in wind energy ourselves or provide a FIT and incentives for micro generation.

Deleted User wrote: »

I would put the 1.2 Billion they want to spend on smart meters and 500 million of the money they will give to wind energy investors to continue purchase incentives, improving the network and providing FIT and grant for micro generation.

Deleted User wrote: »

Very little is done to give consumers better value or better service, all this is to make it better for utilities.

Just to wind you up @Mad_Lad!

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/business/esb-group-sees-operating-profit-and-revenue-rise-807817.html

Dardania

KCross wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

No, they need the purchase incentive, they should eliminate the 500 million of our money going to foreign wind energy companies or invest in wind energy ourselves or provide a FIT and incentives for micro generation.

Deleted User wrote: »

I would put the 1.2 Billion they want to spend on smart meters and 500 million of the money they will give to wind energy investors to continue purchase incentives, improving the network and providing FIT and grant for micro generation.

Deleted User wrote: »

Very little is done to give consumers better value or better service, all this is to make it better for utilities.

Just to wind you up @Mad_Lad!

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/business/esb-group-sees-operating-profit-and-revenue-rise-807817.html

I saw the notification on boards that this thread was updated - I clicked with baited breath, maybe you're posting about the CER decision finally being made. Alas - it's a wind up!

Maybe they can spare the €6m or so out of that!

unkel

KCross wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/business/esb-group-sees-operating-profit-and-revenue-rise-807817.html

So the ESB operating profit is going in the direction of one billion euro per year. Not bad for an organisation where the average person is earning €100,000 per year

Maybe indeed they have some spare alms for a few fast chargers so?

la ultima guagua

I'd say it will be sweeties for BEV buyers in the budget followed shortly afterwards by CER saying youse all will pay for your 'leccy

So nothing from CER untill after budget day

Just a guess

la ultima guagua

unkel wrote: »

So the ESB operating profit is going in the direction of one billion euro per year. Not bad for an organisation where the average person is earning €100,000 per year

Maybe indeed they have some spare alms for a few fast chargers so?

They didnt get where they are today by giving away 'leccy

ELM327

la ultima guagua wrote: »

They didnt get where they are today by giving away 'leccy

So the electrification of rural ireland was completely loss free then?

la ultima guagua

ELM327 wrote: »

So the electrification of rural ireland was completely loss free then?

That was different times. That came in after ESB had wasted all that money building Ardnacrusha and they had to recruit customers. ( you might just find that ESB didnt make very much money back then )

Back in those days you got a grant if you built a house. These days you have to pay the L.A. if you build a house.

Sorry to be desperately O/T

Water John

Some project for Dingle town, they are throwing a €4million at, includes chargers.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/dingle-to-be-4m-test-bed-for-how-grid-will-meet-growing-demand-for-power-36176297.html

All EV owners going to Dingle on their holiers.