CRU (formerly CER) review of charging infrastructure

Dardania

Water John wrote: »

Some project for Dingle town, they are throwing a €4million at, includes chargers.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/dingle-to-be-4m-test-bed-for-how-grid-will-meet-growing-demand-for-power-36176297.html

All EV owners going to Dingle on their holiers.

Genuinely, one would go there, and base for holidays around Kerry if you knew you had good charging facilities

unkel

la ultima guagua wrote: »

ESB had wasted all that money building Ardnacrusha

Well, at least Ardnacrusha provided 100% of the electricity needs of the whole country. And it was 100% renewable. 88 years ago. Pretty impressive for the third world country Ireland was back then

Not so impressive where we are at now with all our money and what we did with all that money while it was coming in by the billions during the boom. Pay for infrastructure? Eh no, spend it on wage inflation. We are very far behind now in terms of EVs compared with other western rich countries...

josip

Water John wrote: »

Some project for Dingle town, they are throwing a €4million at, includes chargers.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/dingle-to-be-4m-test-bed-for-how-grid-will-meet-growing-demand-for-power-36176297.html

All EV owners going to Dingle on their holiers.

Will it end up the same as Ennis?

BoatMad

The CER is no more. Long live th CRU , ( commission for the regulation of utilities )

ted1

unkel wrote: »

KCross wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/business/esb-group-sees-operating-profit-and-revenue-rise-807817.html

So the ESB operating profit is going in the direction of one billion euro per year. Not bad for an organisation where the average person is earning €100,000 per year

Maybe indeed they have some spare alms for a few fast chargers so?

The average salary is far from 100,000. Then older staff in the generating stations may be, but most of them are gone.

unkel

ted1 wrote: »

The average salary is far from 100,000.

Eh yes it is. Probably a good bit over at this stage.

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/average-pay-and-pension-of-esb-workers-near-100000-26632772.html

Any reason for your statement? Could you please deny you are an ESB employee? If not we will presume that you are.

ted1

unkel wrote: »

ted1 wrote: »

The average salary is far from 100,000.

Eh yes it is. Probably a good bit over at this stage.

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/average-pay-and-pension-of-esb-workers-near-100000-26632772.html

Any reason for your statement? Could you please deny you are an ESB employee? If not we will presume that you are.

That article is 7 years old as I said the older staff are gone and all the newer staff are in less.

Here’s an article from last year which states the average is 62k

http://www.thejournal.ie/esb-pay-rise-2716701-Apr2016/

n97 mini

unkel wrote: »

Eh yes it is. Probably a good bit over at this stage.

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/average-pay-and-pension-of-esb-workers-near-100000-26632772.html

Any reason for your statement? Could you please deny you are an ESB employee? If not we will presume that you are.

What's not taken into account when it comes to working out average salaries in the ESB (and the wider public sector) is the amount of people who are working part-time. For example, my sister-in-law works for the ESB and is on a salary of just over 40k, but she only works 3 days a week. So technically she's only on just over 40k. If it was an average working week of 39 hours she'd earn far far more. And she gets a massive discount ("staff rate") on electricity, over 50%, as do all other ESB staff.

ted1

Here’s data from glass door to back up last years figure.

https://www.glassdoor.ie/Salary/ESBI-Salaries-E429337.htm

So really you should drop the attitude.

ted1

n97 mini wrote: »

unkel wrote: »

Eh yes it is. Probably a good bit over at this stage.

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/average-pay-and-pension-of-esb-workers-near-100000-26632772.html

Any reason for your statement? Could you please deny you are an ESB employee? If not we will presume that you are.

What's not taken into account when it comes to working out average salaries in the ESB (and the wider public sector) is the amount of people who are working part-time. For example, my sister-in-law works for the ESB and is on a salary of just over 40k, but she only works 3 days a week. So technically she's only on just over 40k. If it was an average working week of 39 hours she'd earn far far more. And she gets a massive discount ("staff rate") on electricity, over 50%, as do all other ESB staff.

40k for 3 days is about 66k for 5 so just above average. When calculating averages they uprate them to full weeks.

As for the “massive” discount it’s off the Standard tariff so the PSO and standing charge is as normal

No one pays the standard rate as you should move every 12 months , so really they get a about 30% off a kWh which equates to about 20euro a month which is far from massive



ESB isn’t the public sector, and they don’t get any where near the pensions public sector works

TallGlass

Can you sign me up to that 3 day week gig with the 'average' wage of 40k?

:rolleyes:

ted1

TallGlass wrote: »

Can you sign me up to that 3 day week gig with the 'average' wage of 40k?

:rolleyes:

I said above average, and that it works out at just 66k. Which isn’t that high, it would be about average for most engineers in the country, head masters and many more people.
Below average for accountants.
Many people in jobs drop down to 3 days after they have kids.


The average industrial wage is about 39 but the average professional wage would be higher.

I really am surprised that on a EV thread where most people are buying new cars that you think 66k is high.

Take a look here :

http://www.sigmarrecruitment.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Sigmar-Recruitment-Salary-Guide-2017.pdf

You’ll see it’s actually not great

ELM327

ted1 wrote: »

I said above average, and that it works out at just 66k. Which isn’t that high, it would be about average for most engineers in the country, head masters and many more people.
Below average for accountants.
Many people in jobs drop down to 3 days after they have kids.


The average industrial wage is about 39 but the average professional wage would be higher.

I really am surprised that on a EV thread where most people are buying new cars that you think 66k is high.

Take a look here :

http://www.sigmarrecruitment.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Sigmar-Recruitment-Salary-Guide-2017.pdf

You’ll see it’s actually not great

66k is not a high wage.
But it is high, extremely so, for a general operative.

ted1

He never said what his sister in law does.

ELM327

ted1 wrote: »

He never said what his sister in law does.

I took from the non specific "works with the ESB" that it was a general non-skilled job.

I await correction.

ted1

ELM327 wrote: »

ted1 wrote: »

He never said what his sister in law does.

I took from the non specific "works with the ESB" that it was a general non-skilled job.

I await correction.

In my section there’s about 15 engineers. The lowest qualification is a Masters, some have a MBA and two have a PHD, they “work with the ESB”
He also said “massive discount “ which is a outright false statement

I know what the bands are and a general operative isn’t on 66k

People shouldn't just look at salaries , it's what you got after expenses is what matters.

For instance, someone without a mortgage or rent to pay is in a seriously good position in this country.

ELM327

ted1 wrote: »

In my section there’s about 15 engineers. The lowest qualification is a Masters, some have a MBA and two have a PHD, they “work with the ESB”
He also said “massive discount “ which is a outright false statement

I know what the bands are and a general operative isn’t on 66k

If you describe your job as "work with the esb" you work as a general operative.

Someone that was an electrical engineer would not describe their job as "working with the esb".

PS: Thanks for finally confirming you work for the ESB.

ted1

ELM327 wrote: »

ted1 wrote: »

In my section there’s about 15 engineers. The lowest qualification is a Masters, some have a MBA and two have a PHD, they “work with the ESB”
He also said “massive discount “ which is a outright false statement

I know what the bands are and a general operative isn’t on 66k

If you describe your job as "work with the esb" you work as a general operative.

Someone that was an electrical engineer would not describe their job as "working with the esb".

PS: Thanks for finally confirming you work for the ESB.

He described his sister in laws job, not his, and I’d say I work with the ESB because my job title is so specific they’d be left scratching their head. And I’m not a general operative.

There is about 6,000 people le in ESB the average salary is for people “who work in the ESB. And doesn’t differentiate, there’s also very few general operatives.

Take off the tin foil hat.

Water John

Back to topic. See on Sky News last night, they're putting 300 FCPs into London by 2020 for the Black EV Taxis. Chargemaster guy talking.

ted1

Water John wrote: »

Back to topic. See on Sky News last night, they're putting 300 FCPs into London by 2020 for the Black EV Taxis. Chargemaster guy talking.

ESB ECars have made to on to the short list for the tender

L

TallGlass wrote: »

Can you sign me up to that 3 day week gig with the 'average' wage of 40k?

:rolleyes:

That depends, are you a highly qualified and experienced person who is moving down to a part week to look after your family?

If not, probably not. If so, it probably doesn't look as great to you - you've effectively frozen your career progression early or at best drastically slowed it.

Water John

Interesting 2 page spread in The Irish Examiner on why we will all be going electric with our cars. Not earth shattering stuff but good to see it getting that type of mainstream exposure.

ELM327

Checks thread after recent update

Still no CER decision

BOOOOO-URNS

ted1

ELM327 wrote: »

Checks thread after recent update

Still no CER decision

BOOOOO-URNS

The CER is gone , as of today it’s the CRU.

ELM327

ted1 wrote: »

The CER is gone , as of today it’s the CRU.

Same thing different name.
We still await their decision on the EV network

You'll be waiting.....
When is the budget ?

Water John

See a German Co using public lamp posts, as charging points in London, Ubricity.
Inside out BBC1

josip

Water John wrote: »

See a German Co using public lamp posts, as charging points in London, Ubricity.
Inside out BBC1

Gipsies in Eastern Europe have been doing that for years

BoatMad

Folks, there is no point in pushing for a CRU ( which sounds like a paramilitary operation ) decision, there are reasons why there is a delay and I expect that delay to be in our benefit

liamog

Is it because the CRU have to work with the Department of Environment (NI) to come up with a combined CRUDE decision

BoatMad

liamog wrote: »

Is it because the CRU have to work with the Department of Environment (NI) to come up with a combined CRUDE decision

Good one

ELM327

BoatMad wrote: »

Folks, there is no point in pushing for a CRU ( which sounds like a paramilitary operation ) decision, there are reasons why there is a delay and I expect that delay to be in our benefit

Can they not announce that there is a delay, then, having given September as the timeframe for a decision.

It is not in the benefit of the EV community for this 12-18 month standoff to continue. The dearth of working chargers and the abundance of queues at single points of failure is getting worse already.

We need more funds invested in the network.
We need more FCP (slow charging is not as necessary, but it can fulfill a need and reduce some FCP use and therefore queues), and we need multiple FCP units per site in the GDA anyway.

Whether that's state money, ESB money, EU money, or Fastned money I don't particularly care. I also don't mind paying €3-€6 for a fast charge session if it means it is a reliable network ran by someone who actually has the advancement of EV motoring to the forefront of their operational goals.

I suspect I am not the only one.

liamog wrote: »

Is it because the CRU have to work with the Department of Environment (NI) to come up with a combined CRUDE decision

:D:D:D:D Brilliant.

BoatMad

ELM327 wrote: »

Can they not announce that there is a delay, then, having given September as the timeframe for a decision.

It is not in the benefit of the EV community for this 12-18 month standoff to continue. The dearth of working chargers and the abundance of queues at single points of failure is getting worse already.

We need more funds invested in the network.
We need more FCP (slow charging is not as necessary, but it can fulfill a need and reduce some FCP use and therefore queues), and we need multiple FCP units per site in the GDA anyway.

Whether that's state money, ESB money, EU money, or Fastned money I don't particularly care. I also don't mind paying €3-€6 for a fast charge session if it means it is a reliable network ran by someone who actually has the advancement of EV motoring to the forefront of their operational goals.

I suspect I am not the only one.



:D:D:D:D Brilliant.

Be very careful about " offering your money ". The solution isn't to " price " people out of charging.

Nor is there any guarantee that simply cause you pay, we are going to get more chargers


The simpler solution is to retain charging as an incentive ( or a subsidised and by whatever means expand the charger network especially the fast charger network by encouraging multi charger parks along major transport arteries

ELM327

BoatMad wrote: »

Be very careful about " offering your money ". The solution isn't to " price " people out of charging.

The simpler solution is to retain charging as an incentive ( or a subsidised and by whatever means expand the charger network especially the fast charger network by encouraging multi charger parks along major transport arteries

The point I was making is that a paid for good network is preferable to a free unreliable one like we have now

BoatMad

There is no doubt in the last 6 months the fast chargers are under a lot more pressure , that pressure seems to be exclusively coming from uk leaf imports that have no home chargers

I've meet several people in that category ,most often second car driven by a women with no hone Charging

This is a serious issue. The fcp network was not intended for this type of use.

Personally ecars should t give out charge cards without proof of home charging or a valid excuse

Dardania

BoatMad wrote: »

There is no doubt in the last 6 months the fast chargers are under a lot more pressure , that pressure seems to be exclusively coming from uk leaf imports that have no home chargers

I've meet several people in that category ,most often second car driven by a women with no hone Charging

This is a serious issue. The fcp network was not intended for this type of use.

Personally ecars should t give out charge cards without proof of home charging or a valid excuse

Interesting...not a bad approach. If ESB were willing to negotiate home charger install on behalf of apartment dwellers it would be beneficial for everyone

ELM327

BoatMad wrote: »

There is no doubt in the last 6 months the fast chargers are under a lot more pressure , that pressure seems to be exclusively coming from uk leaf imports that have no home chargers

I've meet several people in that category ,most often second car driven by a women with no hone Charging

This is a serious issue. The fcp network was not intended for this type of use.

Personally ecars should t give out charge cards without proof of home charging or a valid excuse

No.. they should not give out access cards without proof of home charging!
There's no excuse.:(:eek::P

liamog

While we're at we should remove cards from the following people.

People who's one way commute is more than 45% of the winter range (unless they have work charging)
- To allow return journeys
- They should of bought a vehicle with a more suitable range for their everyday travels.

People who do a journeys at the weekend greater than the range of their car
- They should have a back up ICE until range improves.

This network is intended as a research project and was not intended to be used by people, if we're going to attain the supports 20,000 vehicles with 80 Fast Chargers it's really important that zero people use the network except in emergencies. At this point we may allow you to charge if you can call the 1890 number, where you will be forced to listen to hold music for 20 minutes @ 35c/min before we start your charge, which will of course be free because we want you to experience the benefits of our world class network.

unkel

Have you lost your mind, Liam? Forcing people to buy a second car because they occasionally have to drive further than the range of their EV?

Just give a card to everybody who wants one. And start charging for charging (a lot cheaper per km than petrol / diesel, but a good bit more expensive than charging at home). Problems solved immediately and the profit margin can pay for better infrastructure.

liamog

Well I figure if people are going to campaign against people using the network, then we should ensure we reach 100% non-use.
With a bit of effort, I think the current world class network could support 50,000 users, maybe even 100,000.

Clearly we should ignore other European countries with their multiple chargers per site and sustainable funding models. If we go down that route a network may be far too useful. No, we'll stick to pattern of blaming users instead of infrastructure provision.

BoatMad

liamog wrote: »

Well I figure if people are going to campaign against people using the network, then we should ensure we reach 100% non-use.
With a bit of effort, I think the current world class network could support 50,000 users, maybe even 100,000.

Clearly we should ignore other European countries with their multiple chargers per site and sustainable funding models. If we go down that route a network may be far too useful. No, we'll stick to pattern of blaming users instead of infrastructure provision.

I accept the sarcasm , but we have a specific problem because of free access , yet that self same free access has spurred a big rise in 2nd EVs.

I agree with others that a pricing regime will have to exist that discourages non essential charging and promotes hone charging where available. This view is also the view of the LEV task force that's drawing up policy in this area.

There isn't a charger network in Europe outside of Norway that has a" sustainable funding arrangement "

Many are on stage or local authority lifelines ,or aided ( temporarily ) by massive state subsidies ,many are full of incompatible payment systems and confusing pricing regimes etc.

Ireland is not alone in its issues. The only thing we do have is an " integrated " network.

We are probably 6-8 months from a pricing regime, so expect a lot more pain in the meantime as cheaper and cheaper uk Leafs flood the country

Note that we have no idea whether commercial operation of the Irish charger network is even possible , we have no roadmap from government , CER or esb on future direction , no commitment to actually funding any specific plan ( no plan ).

That's what's worrying actually , not the current issues

Add to that , many sites are space limited , or worse still , power limited and we are facing some serious pain over the next few years as all this ( hopefully ) gets straightened out.

liamog

I'd love to see the free home charger transition to a grant scheme.
I'd rather give people a €500 grant (for new or second hand) to install their choice of 32/16A charger, and a larger grant to apartments/managed estates to install their own private infrastructure up to a certain amount. A dedicated staff to deal with management companies, and local authorities.

With the current penetration rates, public charging is going to need subsidy. Other European countries have figured out that charging businesses as commercial entities is the best method, why is Ireland different? Subsidy can fill the funding gap until the penetration is high enough.

I don't like the attitude of some people that they are more important when it comes to charging because they are in the middle of a journey compared to locals.
It's happening with enough frequency for some people that it's clear they've bought a car that is unsuitable for their normal use without a public DC charge.
I don't see the difference between a local charging every day at a nearby FCP and a person who does the same thing as part of their daily journeys.

BoatMad

liamog wrote: »

I'd love to see the free home charger transition to a grant scheme.
I'd rather give people a €500 grant (for new or second hand) to install their choice of 32/16A charger, and a larger grant to apartments/managed estates to install their own private infrastructure up to a certain amount. A dedicated staff to deal with management companies, and local authorities.

With the current penetration rates, public charging is going to need subsidy. Other European countries have figured out that charging businesses as commercial entities is the best method, why is Ireland different? Subsidy can fill the funding gap until the penetration is high enough.

I don't like the attitude of some people that they are more important when it comes to charging because they are in the middle of a journey compared to locals.
It's happening with enough frequency for some people that it's clear they've bought a car that is unsuitable for their normal use without a public DC charge.
I don't see the difference between a local charging every day at a nearby FCP and a person who does the same thing as part of their daily journeys.

Virtually no charging company in Europe is operating commercially , the closest is Fastned and they say it will take 10 years to break even and even then fastned is very selective as to where it puts chargers.

Urban users and low mileage users that have the " option " of home , destination or other slow chargers don't need access to fcps.

Hence it's clear that fcp pricing will be the most expensive with home charging the cheapest.

That in itself will seperate the " herd"

Secondly fast chargers are primary there to allow interurban journeys largely outside the range of EVs. , this must be the priority and this required charger parks with multiple fast chargers near transport arteries and largely outside urban areas. ( because of traffic conjestion )

Apartment dwellers and others with no dedicated private parking will have to avail of local fast chargers probably installed on filing stations or car parks , in a largely deregulated environment . Space requirements in urban areas will tend to mean charger parks are impossible in these environments.

Street side charging is almost totally impossible to scale and the trend is to exclude private cars from city centres anyway.

EV public charging will require user , OPEx and Capex subsidies certainly on the medium term and especially in a sparsely populated country like Ireland.

The mechanism for such subsidies are unclear and the EU makes it difficult for the state to get directly involved. We shall see what transpires as public policy ( if any ? )

PS. The introduction of a home charger grant is very active and is likely to be announced reasonably soon in my opinion , possibly by budget day.

This won't help apartments etc however

liamog

We've covered a lot of that before and I'm broadly in agreement with you BoatMad.

BoatMad

ELM327 wrote: »

The point I was making is that a paid for good network is preferable to a free unreliable one like we have now

Simply because there is a fee involved is no guarantee of anything. The current pilot project was fully funded 100% and look at the issues. Extracting money from users doesn't mean anything different would have happened

Much Worse then a free mediocre system , is an expensive mediocre system ( and Ireland is very good at " expensive mediocrity "

BoatMad

liamog wrote: »

We've covered a lot of that before and I'm broadly in agreement with you BoatMad.

Sorry , I'm in front of so many groups it's beginning to sound like a mantra , hopefully something will sink in !!!

jeremy_g

ELM327 wrote: »

No.. they should not give out access cards without proof of home charging!
There's no excuse.:(:eek::P

Believe me, I live in an apartment and I'd rather have the option to charge during the night while the car is parked instead of jumping from chargepoint to chargepoint to find one available publicly :mad:

ELM327

jeremy_g wrote: »

Believe me, I live in an apartment and I'd rather have the option to charge during the night while the car is parked instead of jumping from chargepoint to chargepoint to find one available publicly :mad:

This is one of the typical "use cases" and I believe there should be a solution found.
Maybe an ESB/State co funded initiative to install SCP centrally at bigger apartment blocks and a grant to install 1 per EV at smaller apt blocks

mel.b

This article mentions the decision paper, so has it been released? If so it doesn't sound like much of decision just that ESB must do a, b or c which i think is what we knew already. Maybe there'll be something in the budget?

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/electric-vehicle-charging-network-may-be-sold-off-36204741.html

Edit: just found the decision paper on the CRU website https://www.cru.ie/document_group/electric-vehicles-2/