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Why is everyone going on strike?
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why would younger workers in any profession have wage parity with those who have been in the job much longer? You earn your stripes, you need to achieve benchmarks or not. Just because you studied to be a teacher should not mean you have a 'job for life'. You sign the contract you are given, accept the job and are expected to uphold the standards you signed up to; and your performance should be duly rated on an ongoing basis to assess whether you are due a pay hike or not.
Economies change. That is independent of every single job in the universe. I'd quite like to go back in time and reboot the salary I got with the same circumstances that existed back before it all went awry, but a donkey would know that is not the way life or economies work.
The fact remains that teaching is one of the higher starting salaries for a graduate of any kind (shamefully so) and if young teachers are not happy with what they are getting, fly the nest and go abroad, because I could do your role any an everyday without four years 'training' and an 'arts degree'.;)
Well you speak as if you know it all which is obviously the secret.
Don't tell anyone.0 -
why would younger workers in any profession have wage parity with those who have been in the job much longer? You earn your stripes, you need to achieve benchmarks or not. Just because you studied to be a teacher should not mean you have a 'job for life'. You sign the contract you are given, accept the job and are expected to uphold the standards you signed up to; and your performance should be duly rated on an ongoing basis to assess whether you are due a pay hike or not.
Economies change. That is independent of every single job in the universe. I'd quite like to go back in time and reboot the salary I got with the same circumstances that existed back before it all went awry, but a donkey would know that is not the way life or economies work.
The fact remains that teaching is one of the higher starting salaries for a graduate of any kind (shamefully so) and if young teachers are not happy with what they are getting, fly the nest and go abroad, because I could do your role any an everyday without four years 'training' and an 'arts degree'.;)
How do you assess a teacher (genuine question) or a Guard?
Who is the better teacher - the one who turns a 'B' student into an 'A' student or the one who turns an 'E' student into a 'D' student?
I always remember we had 2 maths teachers in our school for LC maths and they alternated taking an honours class through to the exams. One guy's class was always known for scoring a good clutch of Bs and As, the other not so many - but, the first guy rarely had a class of more than 11 or 12 because he thinned out the poorer students by Christmas of 5th year, whereas the second guy regularly brought a class of 20 or so through to the exam and while not as many scored at the higher grades, he was renowned for rarely, if ever, having someone not pass the exam and generally get the honour - who is the better teacher?
And while we're on it - who would you say is the better Guard in our family - the one who is a detective currently involved in trying to stop gang warfare from engulfing the north inner city? The one who recently spent Or the one who works in a fairly rural village where he calls into to visit those living alone on his way to and from working his shift?0 -
Everyone I know on full hours works far more than 27 hours.
A lot of decent worker works extra hours and take their work home. For free. And get 2 weeks holidays per year
Junior teachers were thrown under the bus a few years ago by seniors... Maybe the seniors should have some cuts now and give that to the juniors0 -
A lot of decent worker works extra hours and take their work home. For free. And get 2 weeks holidays per year
Junior teachers were thrown under the bus a few years ago by seniors... Maybe the seniors should have some cuts now and give that to the juniors
Ah yeah, no doubt they do.
There's fantastic and very giving people in every profession.0 -
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A lot of decent worker works extra hours and take their work home. For free. And get 2 weeks holidays per year
Junior teachers were thrown under the bus a few years ago by seniors... Maybe the seniors should have some cuts now and give that to the juniors
Actually they weren't.
People seem completely unaware of just how little 'negotiation' there was in the processes that generated the Croke Park, Haddington Road and and Lansdowne Road Agreements.0 -
gosplan wrote:I'm not advocating subject based pay. Just that maths has been in the headlines for years with successive gvts calling for pure maths and engineering grads to take up teaching roles.
The thing is if you want teachers who are highly qualified in certain area's where the private sector pay vastly exceeds what you can get as a teacher(obviously in a completely different role in the private sector) you are going to have to pay the going market rate.
If you want more pure maths and teaching grads to take up teaching roles your going to pay them near the rates they'd expect to get in the private sector. Given that there's no massive issue getting teachers in general theres no great reason for pay rises for everyone across the whole profession.
I know free college fees subject to teaching for a number of years is an option has been proposed here. I'd have an issue with that. Once a person gets the relevant qualification that's the hard part done and even if they have to repay fees its a lot easier working full time than as a student especially if the part gap is as large as is being suggested for certain subjects.0 -
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Actually they weren't.
People seem completely unaware of just how little 'negotiation' there was in the processes that generated the Croke Park, Haddington Road and and Lansdowne Road Agreements.
Actually, they were. The PS unions all voted to accept the scales for new entrants when they voted to accept Haddington road.
If they care so much about inequality why did they not go on strike then? Why didn't they offer a unified scale which would have kept the overall pay bill the same? They didn't because it would have meant cuts for senior staff0 -
Actually they weren't.
People seem completely unaware of just how little 'negotiation' there was in the processes that generated the Croke Park, Haddington Road and and Lansdowne Road Agreements.
There was a good bit of Negotiation. THe First Pay cut was completely Negotiated by Unions/government, in the second case the unions walked away more or less and told the government to do as they wanted. They understood that the Government had no choice and timeframe was too short, Haddington/Landowne rpad agreement were accepted by most unions with the excption of ASTI and Gardai unions. They sold there membership a pup and are unable to accept that they were wrong. They have lost there members a lot of money and now are in face saving mode.
Government cannot afford to break the agreemenst with other unions as there would be Industrail chaos in the PS. ASTI and Garda unions have there head in the sand on this issue.Slava Ukrainii
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Why didn't they go on strike then?
Because they were voted into the deal by ICTU - the problems with the social partnership deals is that if they are accepted by the public service group in ICTU all PS unions affiliated to ICTU are bound to accept them, unless they want to abandon ICTU - which means all the government has to do is keep the unions with large memberships sweet to guarantee the 'tyranny of the majority' - the majority of the unions could vote against accepting a deal but if UNITE, IMPACT and SIPTU vote in favour then, as the Yanks would say, that's the ball game.oppenheimer1 wrote: »Actually, they were. The PS unions all voted to accept the scales for new entrants when they voted to accept Haddington road.
If they care so much about inequality why did they not go on strike then? Why didn't they offer a unified scale which would have kept the overall pay bill the same? They didn't because it would have meant cuts for senior staff
Actually, ASTI rejected the HRA as did the union I was in at the time (the AHCPS) when the LRA was put to a vote - but the union was still bound by the overall outcome - as an aside, that was pretty much when I decided I'd had enough and might as well be paid a decent wage so I decided to leave.Bass Reeves wrote: »There was a good bit of Negotiation. THe First Pay cut was completely Negotiated by Unions/government, in the second case the unions walked away more or less and told the government to do as they wanted. They understood that the Government had no choice and timeframe was too short, Haddington/Landowne rpad agreement were accepted by most unions with the excption of ASTI and Gardai unions. They sold there membership a pup and are unable to accept that they were wrong. They have lost there members a lot of money and now are in face saving mode.
Government cannot afford to break the agreemenst with other unions as there would be Industrail chaos in the PS. ASTI and Garda unions have there head in the sand on this issue.
There was no negotiation on the unequal pay provisions - zero - nada - nothing.....when the other elements of the agreement were in place DPER then came in with the pay elements and made it clear it was not a point of negotiation it was, in effect, a diktat - it was made clear that the new pay structures would be imposed by statutory means or through the agreement but they were going to be imposed. Rejecting them meant rejecting the entirety of the agreement (and still having the pay structures imposed) and the token benefits it offered.
One can only lament that people are not as quick to believe other government propaganda as they are to believe the propaganda about the various 'negotiations' dating back to CP1!0 -
blackwhite wrote: »It's still a defined benefit scheme, it's just that the benefit isn't quite as good as it used be. It's not at the mercy of equity markets going up and down.
It's still significantly more beneficial than what's available to 99% of private sector workers.
The benefit is based on career average though! So can you tell me now what the benefit actually is?
Are you assuming that a teacher starts out straightaway on permanent position?0 -
oppenheimer1 wrote: »Actually, they were. The PS unions all voted to accept the scales for new entrants when they voted to accept Haddington road.
If they care so much about inequality why did they not go on strike then? Why didn't they offer a unified scale which would have kept the overall pay bill the same? They didn't because it would have meant cuts for senior staff
So you'ld support the teachers going on strike now for pay parity?0 -
So you'd support the teachers going on strike now for pay parity?
Great to see you're posting here where you can't delete the posts you don't like.
While I support the idea of pay parity, I don't support the strike. I'd only support measures where the overall pay bill is kept the same and a unified scale for all teachers is brought in. The country simply can't afford wholesale increases in public sector pay as ultimately it will lead to under investment in capital projects, over borrowing and punitive tax measures.0 -
Actually, ASTI rejected the HRA as did the union I was in at the time (the AHCPS) when the LRA was put to a vote - but the union was still bound by the overall outcome - as an aside, that was pretty much when I decided I'd had enough and might as well be paid a decent wage so I decided to leave.
ASTI voted to accept HRA http://www.asti.ie/news/latest-news/news-article/article/haddington-road-agreement-update/0 -
The falacy that the private sector gets more than teachers is well rehearshed and erroneous. ( A few private sector workers earn more but they earn it through very long hours and high levels of competition and stress)
I live in London and I have 2 degrees and work in the private sector and do not earn what my friends in west of Ireland earn as teachers
They are the best paid in Europe and work 9 months of the year
I and others I work with work 9 hour days ...have no study days, no long holidays , no job securuty or no brilliant pensions
It is a farce that teachers in Ireland are on strike....
Tradionally public sector is a secure job with a great pension ...in Ireland the pay is good too
And once you are a permenat teacher you dont have to worry about being made redudant any time or out stripped by younger employees as you are hicked up the pay scale no matter your competencies or inputs
Ireland public sector workers are ridiculous and greedy0 -
And in case you donlt beleive here is a typical ad for a programme manager within the public sector in London
https://www.totaljobs.com/job/senior-programme-manager/red-personnel-job67016900?JBE=1&entryUrl=%2fjobs%2fproject-manger-or-data-or-sexual-or-alcohol-or-public-and-health-or-modeling%2fin-london_south-east%3findustry%3d30%26sort%3d2%26radius%3d5
Notice the ads calls for people management skills , budget management of £2million considerbale experice and qualifications
says it 37 hours a week but no one works those hours ...more like 47 hours
It pays £49 k
Compare to my friends who have 20 years teaching experience in west of Ireland as a teacher and who earn circe 60k ...go home at 3.30pm and are off 3 months in the year and can never be demoted or sacked0 -
And in case you donlt beleive here is a typical ad for a programme manager within the public sector in London
https://www.totaljobs.com/job/senior-programme-manager/red-personnel-job67016900?JBE=1&entryUrl=%2fjobs%2fproject-manger-or-data-or-sexual-or-alcohol-or-public-and-health-or-modeling%2fin-london_south-east%3findustry%3d30%26sort%3d2%26radius%3d5
Notice the ads calls for people management skills , budget management of £2million considerbale experice and qualifications
says it 37 hours a week but no one works those hours ...more like 47 hours
It pays £49 k
Compare to my friends who have 20 years teaching experience in west of Ireland as a teacher and who earn circe 60k ...go home at 3.30pm and are off 3 months in the year and can never be demoted or sacked
Why not be a reacher then?
You've 2 degrees and if necessary you can do a PME by distance learning - it's not cheap but you could look on the money as an investment?
Btw, I'm not sure what relevance the ad for a programme manager has? If that's the market rate for PMs then that's the market rate.0 -
Why not be a reacher then?
You've 2 degrees and if necessary you can do a PME by distance learning - it's not cheap but you could look on the money as an investment?
Btw, I'm not sure what relevance the ad for a programme manager has? If that's the market rate for PMs then that's the market rate.
I don;t want ot be a teacher ...I am not going to be a teacher becasue its paid well/better
The relevance of the job is as a comparison of wages ...as stated0 -
tayto lover wrote: »The falacy that the private sector gets more than teachers is well rehearshed and erroneous. ( A few private sector workers earn more but they earn it through very long hours and high levels of competition and stress)
I live in London and I have 2 degrees and work in the private sector and do not earn what my friends in west of Ireland earn as teachers
They are the best paid in Europe and work 9 months of the year
I and others I work with work 9 hour days ...have no study days, no long holidays , no job securuty or no brilliant pensions
It is a farce that teachers in Ireland are on strike....
Tradionally public sector is a secure job with a great pension ...in Ireland the pay is good too
And once you are a permenat teacher you dont have to worry about being made redudant any time or out stripped by younger employees as you are hicked up the pay scale no matter your competencies or inputs
Ireland public sector workers are ridiculous and greedy[/QUOTE]
So you think that 23K euro for a Garda and 25K for a nurse is greedy?
These are starting salaries and are good as such and are in line with what most graduades get in the private sector...and graduates have paid and attended 3 years at university
Wages rise steadily for most profession in the public sector after that and after 10 years servcie and 20 years then they are very good in comparison to conditions, job security and wages in the private sector...that was my point
Yes I think well paid teachers are greedy and I also think gardia are greedy
I could make a case for nurses being paid better but not for two mentioned above...all public cases are different and my piece was about teachers0 -
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I don;t want ot be a teacher ...I am not going to be a teacher becasue its paid well/better
The relevance of the job is as a comparison of wages ...as stated
So you're not prepared to do the job, but you're prepared to criticise and pass judgment on those that do?
And why not compare it to a Premiership manager? Good people management skills required, must have a UEFA Pro licence, be good at negotiating etc - it's ridiculous they get paid what they do, but that's the market for them.
Teachers pay and conditions are set centrally because if there was a genuinely free market for their services the fee paying and private schools would Hoover up the best of them as would the state schools with well resourced parents' councils and given the well studied role education plays in alleviating wealth and health inequalities that would not be a good move, would it?0 -
These are starting salaries and are good as such and are in line with what most graduades get in the private sector...and graduates have paid and attended 3 years at university
Wages rise steadily for most profession in the public sector after that and after 10 years servcie and 20 years then they are very good in comparison to conditions, job security and wages in the private sector...that was my point
Yes I think well paid teachers are greedy and I also think gardia are greedy
I could make a case for nurses being paid better but not for two mentioned above...all public cases are different and my piece was about teachers
you can't be a teacher with just 3 years of university education.
It's closer to 50 -
So you're not prepared to do the job, but you're prepared to criticise and pass judgment on those that do?
And why not compare it to a Premiership manager? Good people management skills required, must have a UEFA Pro licence, be good at negotiating etc - it's ridiculous they get paid what they do, but that's the market for them.
Teachers pay and conditions are set centrally because if there was a genuinely free market for their services the fee paying and private schools would Hoover up the best of them as would the state schools with well resourced parents' councils and given the well studied role education plays in alleviating wealth and health inequalities that would not be a good move, would it?
what has me being prepared to do the job have to do with anthing. Is it like fighting for one's country? . Teaching is the sort of vocation that only the dedicated sacrifice for ? God give me patience...I hope you are not a teacher using such emotive and erroeonous arguments.
( so unless everyone is prepared to be a politician they cannot comment on the job is your point ? And not everyone can be a teacher as there aren't enough jobs for one thing)
I don't compare teachers salaries to football mangers not more than I do to hollywood stars . I compared to a public sector employee in London that requires a degrees, considerable man and budget management and years of experience ...and was less well paid and in London where costs are far much higher
The fallacy that in some sort of free market that teacher would be earning some very high salary is all mis information. aside for just showing you what equivalent employees earns why would teachers earn more. Some arrogance that suggets teachers are better. Most have no idea to negiotate the job market...they have gone from school to school and not worked in the real world. As teachers if they are good at their job or not who will sack them or how will their pay be curtailed
They have a view of themselves as if they are some sort of unique and percious commodity
But the reality is teachers have very good pay and conditions in Ireland. Most of my school contempories do the job well but most others I work with are better educated and could do just as well but are paid less in their jobs. Which is the point of this debate . Should they strike ??...no way ...its greedy.0 -
you can't be a teacher with just 3 years of university education.
It's closer to 5
ill you please stop providing false information
My sister is a teacher and it was 3 years
I did 3 years of a degree , 2 years of a masters and continue to do professional course as do my work mates and we earn less
If you want to argue get your facts straight0 -
ill you please stop providing false information
My sister is a teacher and it was 3 years
I did 3 years of a degree , 2 years of a masters and continue to do professional course as do my work mates and we earn less
If you want to argue get your facts straight
You simply cannot teach after 3 years in university. You still have to get a post-grad qualification such as a PME. Is there a full time that takes less than 2 years? What path did your sister take that got her qualified as a teacher in 3 years?
You can get an arts degree in 3 years, do 1 year of a PME and be teaching as part of your placement in year 2, but that doesn't mean you're a teacher, you still have to finish the PME.
And we'll done on your quals......I've a PhD (I don't teach) and get paid less than most principals, but I wouldn't want their job for twice the money.0 -
The benefit is based on career average though! So can you tell me now what the benefit actually is?
Are you assuming that a teacher starts out straightaway on permanent position?
It's still a DB scheme. There's a defined calculation that guarantees a benefit linked to salary.
A defined contribution scheme is very different, there's no guaranteed link to salary, and poor investment performance could mean you end up with nothing.0 -
Jep Gambardella wrote: »That's only to be expected. There's not that many low-skilled jobs left in the public sector. In short, there's no one flipping burgers in the public sector.
Haha
Plenty of jobs in the public sector are low skill, especially admin jobs which should nearly be all automated and online only now.
Go into a bank and you have 2 or 3 people there, rest is self service kiosks.
Go into your local social welfare office or County council office and it's the opposite.
Public sector needs to be trimmed massively, then give them pay rises.0 -
So you're not prepared to do the job, but you're prepared to criticise and pass judgment on those that do?
Well yes.
Imagine 100, 000 workers get a rise of 1k each. That's 100 000 000 per year isn't it?
Do you understand the scale of the public sector and what giving everyone their little slice of the pie will do to the country...
I really don't think people understand that we almost ceased to exist as an economy very recently because of crazyness like this.
Giving money to the PS like this is going to go straight into developers and bankers pockets all over again.
Do people not understand this?0 -
Nurses and guards etc are not entrepreneurs and don't create value in and of themselves. They derive value from a thriving economy. They cannot lead an economy. That's when things break. And that is what's about to happen all over again.
Much better soln is to trim off the Crap in the PS and reallocate some money from top to bottom. Give more money to people who themselves bring value to this economy. Ie exporters and entrepreneurs like movidius.
Then in a few years time give the PS their slice...
Doing it the other way around is going to ruin us all over again. Why can't people see that. It's simple. Like ridiculously simple0 -
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Nurses and guards etc are not entrepreneurs and don't create value in and of themselves. They derive value from a thriving economy. They cannot lead an economy. That's when things break. And that is what's about to happen all over again.
Much better soln is to trim off the Crap in the PS and reallocate some money from top to bottom. Give more money to people who themselves bring value to this economy. Ie exporters and entrepreneurs like movidius.
Then in a few years time give the PS their slice...
Doing it the other way around is going to ruin us all over again. Why can't people see that. It's simple. Like ridiculously simple
Well leaving aside arguments about social entrepreneurism......people seem to forget (so I'll remind them again) that the public sector enables wealth creation through providing 'social and public goods' such as protection of private and intellectual property rights, a means to enforce contracts, social and economic regulation, basic R&D etc.
The computer, the internet, web browsers etc all emerged from the public sector.....private sector entrepreneurs may have maximised / optimised them but before Jobs, Gates and Bezos, we had Turing, Berners-Lee and Roberts.0 -
Stop the lights boy.
Every single thing we have today can be tracked back to world war 2. And from that back to gorillas.
Should we all go bananas and go to war too?0 -
ill you please stop providing false information
My sister is a teacher and it was 3 years
I did 3 years of a degree , 2 years of a masters and continue to do professional course as do my work mates and we earn less
If you want to argue get your facts straight
Are you saying you have 2 degrees, a masters, work in London and make less than teachers starting salary?0 -
NO
Can you read ...I make less than teachers in west of ireland with 20 years experience...
They are on 60k and i am on 52 K...plus I work longer hours , have no final salary pension and no long holidays .and work 8 hour days ..and same for all my friends who work here..including a university lecturer , a statistian , a project manager
And btw ...two degrees or 10 degrees do not a great employee make...teachers are obsessed with degrees ....
Why bang on about your degrees if they're irrelevant.
Anyway, Nice manners. Have a good day.0 -
Come on, cut out the digs about reading etc.!
Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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There's a difference between someone buying property and someone entering into an employment contract of service.
For a start, property prices go up as well as down - my parents wouldn't be too happy if the reciprocal logic used in relation Spencer Dock was applied to the Corpo house they bought for a few grand in the 1960s was applied to them.
Second, the property market did for owners of property - people borrowed and bought, the market moved against them - that's just tough luck. If they borrowed prudently and/or bought earlier in the market and/or got out earlier then that's good luck to them.
PS salaries were forcible changed by fiat - the market wage for teachers didn't collapse, the government used its executive powers to ram through a change, and now people are complaining that workers are standing up and using their power. Well, if you are a PS worker and you've had your wages reduced, and you are facing a government who serially renege on various parts of and 'agreement' what power have you got left? You only have the power of withdrawing your labour and if the government won't listen to rational argument, won't be swayed by ethical argument and are happy to ignore legal argument then it's no wonder people are heading for the picket lines.
The 'old' public service wages were based on FF 'good times forever'.
When the money was there from the boom the public service unions took the Exchequer for all they could get - and that was a lot.
They have absolutely no entitlement to a return to those wages and conditions.
Because of increments public service wage bill per head is the same now as it was in the boom. As a group they took no pain.0 -
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Good loser wrote: »The 'old' public service wages were based on FF 'good times forever'.
When the money was there from the boom the public service unions took the Exchequer for all they could get - and that was a lot.
They have absolutely no entitlement to a return to those wages and conditions.
Because of increments public service wage bill per head is the same now as it was in the boom. As a group they took no pain.
My recollection, for what it's worth, is that there were various social partnership agreements - both sides committed to deliver certain things following negotiations. The fundamental mistake was that the PS employees thought that social partnership was binding which it was, but only on them - as it turns out the government do not regard any such agreement as binding.
That's why I think any union that signs up for social partnership in future needs its collective head examined.
As for 'no pain'? I must tell that to the 20%+ of my former colleagues who had their contracts terminated, who were coerced into retirement, or forced to resign, not to mention those of us who left for other jobs when the unilateral variation to our contracted terms of conditions became a bit too much to ignore.......by the way the irony of that last issue can be found in one of my former colleagues who left but is now back working in organisation I used to work for, but this time he's there as a contractor/consultant getting paid about 20% more than he'd be paid as an employee!!0 -
oppenheimer1 wrote: »Great to see you're posting here where you can't delete the posts you don't like.
While I support the idea of pay parity, I don't support the strike. I'd only support measures where the overall pay bill is kept the same and a unified scale for all teachers is brought in. The country simply can't afford wholesale increases in public sector pay as ultimately it will lead to under investment in capital projects, over borrowing and punitive tax measures.
But Lansdowne Road garauntees ASTI teachers a payrise, no?
Also the dept are willing to pay subs way over the odds to come in and do it for them.
Plus they would have had to budget for this given that it wad part of the Haddington road agreement 3 years ago which they renegaded on.
Plus whether you like it or not the govt have committed to pay restoration (not pay rises btw).0 -
Can someone answer me a question regarding this 'I want equal pay for equal work' line I keep hearing people on the radio say every single day.
I saw a young teacher the other day on RTE News say they just want to be paid the same as their colleague in the other room who is doing the same job.
So is a newly qualified teacher, maybe 24yrs old, looking to be paid exactly the same money as one who is 50 and who has been teaching for 25yrs?0 -
Can someone answer me a question regarding this 'I want equal pay for equal work' line I keep hearing people on the radio say every single day.
I saw a young teacher the other day on RTE News say they just want to be paid the same as their colleague in the other room who is doing the same job.
So is a newly qualified teacher, maybe 24yrs old, looking to be paid exactly the same money as one who is 50 and who has been teaching for 25yrs?
No, they're looking to be on the same salary/career progression scale.
For the sake of simplicity let's say you're a teacher who started work in a f/t position on 1 December 2010 - you would now be earning €35,775 (that excludes any allowances etc)
If I started one month after you on 1 January 2011, I'd be earning €33,041 - I started a month after you, I'm doing the same job, under the same conditions but getting paid about €200 a month less than you.0 -
oppenheimer1 wrote: »Based on a 22hr working week + 1hr day prep time, a graduate teacher post 2012 earns on day one of employment approximately €30 an hour. If this hourly rate was applied to someone with normal holiday and working a 35hr week, they would be starting on a salary of €49,824.
A full time teacher with 10 years experience is on €44 an hour, which someone with normal holiday entitlements and working hours would need to earn €72,298 per year to have the same hourly rate.
Well the first mistake is assuming a teacher starting out for the first 10 years is on a fulltime salary.
Next they simply Dontstart on €49,824. It's the base rate of 167 days divided over the year..
Same way a teacher after 10 years... (we are still assuming fulltime) is just not on €72,298. That's just the reality of the situation.
Have a look at the post 2012 payscale on the ASTI website and then say what the actual amount is and then say it's overpaid vs' some other job.
When I started out I was subbing /borrowing money from parents for about 2 years.. Then got 6 hrs pw (extrapolate that). Then 12 hrs for 2 yrs. Then 16 hrs for 5 yrs.
But that's the way it is and always was (for majority of teachers, of course a few jump straight into fulltime).
Would you still advise anyone to go into teaching? (don't forget the teaching teenagers part).0 -
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No, they're looking to be on the same salary/career progression scale.
For the sake of simplicity let's say you're a teacher who started work in a f/t position on 1 December 2010 - you would now be earning €35,775 (that excludes any allowances etc)
If I started one month after you on 1 January 2011, I'd be earning €33,041 - I started a month after you, I'm doing the same job, under the same conditions but getting paid about €200 a month less than you.
In terms of teachers:
It's crazy to think that pay scale is defined by date or year started (above) rather than ability to do a job. There are some woeful teachers out there getting paid an awful lot more than capable colleagues. The system of private pay bargaining could not be supported by the public sector so this public v private pay scale argument should be put to rest.
I don't compare my private sector job to other private sector jobs because well..... It's not my job.
Surely there is an economic formula for this kind of stuff that factors in all the necessary data? If we had alot more private schools in this country then at least there would be market that the unions or government (depending on the value of salary) could argue for.0 -
we must worse than the french now, when it comes to going on strike0
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My recollection, for what it's worth, is that there were various social partnership agreements - both sides committed to deliver certain things following negotiations. The fundamental mistake was that the PS employees thought that social partnership was binding which it was, but only on them - as it turns out the government do not regard any such agreement as binding.
That's why I think any union that signs up for social partnership in future needs its collective head examined.
As for 'no pain'? I must tell that to the 20%+ of my former colleagues who had their contracts terminated, who were coerced into retirement, or forced to resign, not to mention those of us who left for other jobs when the unilateral variation to our contracted terms of conditions became a bit too much to ignore.......by the way the irony of that last issue can be found in one of my former colleagues who left but is now back working in organisation I used to work for, but this time he's there as a contractor/consultant getting paid about 20% more than he'd be paid as an employee!!
There there was various partnership deals in ordinary times the government honoured. However you and ASTI, the GRA and the AGSI all fail to accept that as a country we were in a national emergency situation from 2008 on. The unions knew that there would be pay cuts but were unable to come to terms with the government. In such situation where the existance of the state is in peril the government has a responsibility to act.
What would have happened if we did not get our budget in order and got our economy to recover and created the situation where for those that want jobs those jobs are there in the private sector and in the public sector. In such situation as the emergency we had mistakes will be made, pay cuts are a raw tool and you will have situations where workers that you want to go will not and those that wish to stay will. This idea that people were forced is not looking at reality. Those that retired and left for other jobs had to sign a resignation form that is the reality. In such situation where any company is under finiancial pressure companies will not renew any contracts it could. The government acted as it had to.
It was not just workers, it cut social benefits ( not enough and they are being restored too fast you can see the hands of those social warriors FF and it fellow travaller in the independents in action). The government closed down it capital progrom what about all the workers that lost there jobs these. It cut the budgets to NGO and this had an effect.
I think it is time to come out of the cocoonWell the first mistake is assuming a teacher starting out for the first 10 years is on a fulltime salary.
Next they simply Dontstart on €49,824. It's the base rate of 167 days divided over the year..
Same way a teacher after 10 years... (we are still assuming fulltime) is just not on €72,298. That's just the reality of the situation.
Have a look at the post 2012 payscale on the ASTI website and then say what the actual amount is and then say it's overpaid vs' some other job.
When I started out I was subbing /borrowing money from parents for about 2 years.. Then got 6 hrs pw (extrapolate that). Then 12 hrs for 2 yrs. Then 16 hrs for 5 yrs.
But that's the way it is and always was (for majority of teachers, of course a few jump straight into fulltime).
Would you still advise anyone to go into teaching? (don't forget the teaching teenagers part).
However you had a choice you could have gone working elsewhere in the world like other Irish workers........even teachers go to the UK, Dubai, Australia NZ etc etc. What you describe above is what happened in the other area's of the private sector and public sector where work is of an intermitant. Teachers are lucky in such tempory situation they have the holiday periods Christmas, Easter, summer and mid term holidays to attempt to get full time work. There is also no reason what a teacher on less than 10 hours /week cannot get a supplementary work to boos earning in another areawe must worse than the french now, when it comes to going on strike
It comes down to the same sense of entitlementSlava Ukrainii
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Come on, cut out the digs about reading etc.!
I made a dig because the question was non sensenical and deliberately set ot to undermine my point just as the point that why donlt i become a teacher then ??
Emotive and undermining arguments ...maybe you might ask these to be cut out.......
Let there be misinformation, undermining and deliberate obfuscation but hey let no one be 'rude' .....
Also I didn't bring up degrees ...the other posters kept banging on about how teachers have degrees and that justified their salaries0 -
Bass Reeves wrote: »There there was various partnership deals in ordinary times the government honoured. However you and ASTI, the GRA and the AGSI all fail to accept that as a country we were in a national emergency situation from 2008 on. The unions knew that there would be pay cuts but were unable to come to terms with the government. In such situation where the existance of the state is in peril the government has a responsibility to act.
What would have happened if we did not get our budget in order and got our economy to recover and created the situation where for those that want jobs those jobs are there in the private sector and in the public sector. In such situation as the emergency we had mistakes will be made, pay cuts are a raw tool and you will have situations where workers that you want to go will not and those that wish to stay will. This idea that people were forced is not looking at reality. Those that retired and left for other jobs had to sign a resignation form that is the reality. In such situation where any company is under finiancial pressure companies will not renew any contracts it could. The government acted as it had to.
...
Really? You can't enter into a deal, renege then expect everyone to accept your good faith assurances in future!
During 2008-2010 various proposals were floated to the government to reduce the public pay bill. They opted for FEMPI, levied, reduced rates of pay etc in preference to redundancies, re-organisation and reform. You didn't need to a genius at the time to realise the whole public service needed re-configuring but the government politically and electorally didn't want to grasp that nettle.
Now they blithely expect people to accept inequalities they engineered and are unwilling to unwind? I don't think so.
Incidentally, the main players in DPER came from the private sector.....created the mess, then skulked back to even higher paying jobs there!!0 -
Bass Reeves wrote: »There there was various partnership deals in ordinary times the government honoured. However you and ASTI, the GRA and the AGSI all fail to accept that as a country we were in a national emergency situation from 2008 on. The unions knew that there would be pay cuts but were unable to come to terms with the government. In such situation where the existance of the state is in peril the government has a responsibility to act.
What would have happened if we did not get our budget in order and got our economy to recover and created the situation where for those that want jobs those jobs are there in the private sector and in the public sector. In such situation as the emergency we had mistakes will be made, pay cuts are a raw tool and you will have situations where workers that you want to go will not and those that wish to stay will. This idea that people were forced is not looking at reality. Those that retired and left for other jobs had to sign a resignation form that is the reality. In such situation where any company is under finiancial pressure companies will not renew any contracts it could. The government acted as it had to.
It was not just workers, it cut social benefits ( not enough and they are being restored too fast you can see the hands of those social warriors FF and it fellow travaller in the independents in action). The government closed down it capital progrom what about all the workers that lost there jobs these. It cut the budgets to NGO and this had an effect.
I think it is time to come out of the cocoon
However you had a choice you could have gone working elsewhere in the world like other Irish workers........even teachers go to the UK, Dubai, Australia NZ etc etc. What you describe above is what happened in the other area's of the private sector and public sector where work is of an intermitant. Teachers are lucky in such tempory situation they have the holiday periods Christmas, Easter, summer and mid term holidays to attempt to get full time work. There is also no reason what a teacher on less than 10 hours /week cannot get a supplementary work to boos earning in another area
It comes down to the same sense of entitlement
Ah yeah I'm not claiming that I couldn't emigrate, I chose to stick it it in the hope of bettering my circumstances... And I did.
What I do resent though is the notion put forth here that the starting salary (going by some backwards working if a magical hourly rate) is €49,824 when it's not.
Btw, as regards the low hours and supplimenting income, how do you secure other employment during the week when you have to be in school for the full day as you don't just do those 10 hrs in one block?
Sure, I supplimented my income with extra work during the summer and evenings.
But as the man says, 'you might be peeing on me head, but don't be bleedin telling me it's only rain'.0 -
But Lansdowne Road garauntees ASTI teachers a payrise, no?
Also the dept are willing to pay subs way over the odds to come in and do it for them.
Plus they would have had to budget for this given that it wad part of the Haddington road agreement 3 years ago which they renegaded on.
Plus whether you like it or not the govt have committed to pay restoration (not pay rises btw).
Pay restoration is the PR friendly euphemism for pay rises. If you are earning more tomorrow than you were earning today then its a pay rise.Well the first mistake is assuming a teacher starting out for the first 10 years is on a fulltime salary.
Next they simply Dontstart on €49,824. It's the base rate of 167 days divided over the year..
Same way a teacher after 10 years... (we are still assuming fulltime) is just not on €72,298. That's just the reality of the situation.
Have a look at the post 2012 payscale on the ASTI website and then say what the actual amount is and then say it's overpaid vs' some other job.
When I started out I was subbing /borrowing money from parents for about 2 years.. Then got 6 hrs pw (extrapolate that). Then 12 hrs for 2 yrs. Then 16 hrs for 5 yrs.
But that's the way it is and always was (for majority of teachers, of course a few jump straight into fulltime).
Would you still advise anyone to go into teaching? (don't forget the teaching teenagers part).
If you think I'm not being accurate, then which of the below statements are not true?- Full time teachers work approximately 1002 hours per year, which includes an allowance for preparation time.
- Every other full time worker works a minimum of 1610 hours per year. Teachers starting out, post 2012, get about €30 an hour.
- If an ordinary worker worked his or her 1610 hours for the teacher hourly rate they would earn in excess of €49k per year.
What you don't seem, strangely enough is putting any value on the teachers holidays, which in this day and age are grossly excessive and a hangover from a time when children were required to work on farms to bring in the harvest. Do you not put any monetary value on your holidays?
I would advise anyone to get into teaching - particularly one of a couple as it is very family friendly. Being off at the same time as your children means childcare bills are much lower for teachers compared to the general work force. Teaching has a good salary, great conditions and great job security compared to the rest of the economy.0 -
oppenheimer1 wrote: »Pay restoration is the PR friendly euphemism for pay rises. If you are earning more tomorrow than you were earning today then its a pay rise.
If you think I'm not being accurate, then which of the below statements are not true?- Full time teachers work approximately 1002 hours per year, which includes an allowance for preparation time.
- Every other full time worker works a minimum of 1610 hours per year. Teachers starting out, post 2012, get about €30 an hour.
- If an ordinary worker worked his or her 1610 hours for the teacher hourly rate they would earn in excess of €49k per year.
What you don't seem, strangely enough is putting any value on the teachers holidays, which in this day and age are grossly excessive and a hangover from a time when children were required to work on farms to bring in the harvest. Do you not put any monetary value on your holidays?
I would advise anyone to get into teaching - particularly one of a couple as it is very family friendly. Being off at the same time as your children means childcare bills are much lower for teachers compared to the general work force. Teaching has a good salary, great conditions and great job security compared to the rest of the economy.
I would almost literally kill for unpaid leave right now0 -
oppenheimer1 wrote: »Pay restoration is the PR friendly euphemism for pay rises. If you are earning more tomorrow than you were earning today then its a pay rise.
If you think I'm not being accurate, then which of the below statements are not true?- Full time teachers work approximately 1002 hours per year, which includes an allowance for preparation time.
- Every other full time worker works a minimum of 1610 hours per year. Teachers starting out, post 2012, get about €30 an hour.
- If an ordinary worker worked his or her 1610 hours for the teacher hourly rate they would earn in excess of €49k per year.
What you don't seem, strangely enough is putting any value on the teachers holidays, which in this day and age are grossly excessive and a hangover from a time when children were required to work on farms to bring in the harvest. Do you not put any monetary value on your holidays?
I would advise anyone to get into teaching - particularly one of a couple as it is very family friendly. Being off at the same time as your children means childcare bills are much lower for teachers compared to the general work force. Teaching has a good salary, great conditions and great job security compared to the rest of the economy.
So if they reduced the holidays, would you support a pay rise for teachers?0 -
oppenheimer1 wrote: »Pay restoration is the PR friendly euphemism for pay rises. If you are earning more tomorrow than you were earning today then its a pay rise.
If you think I'm not being accurate, then which of the below statements are not true?- Full time teachers work approximately 1002 hours per year, which includes an allowance for preparation time.
- Every other full time worker works a minimum of 1610 hours per year. Teachers starting out, post 2012, get about €30 an hour.
- If an ordinary worker worked his or her 1610 hours for the teacher hourly rate they would earn in excess of €49k per year.
What you don't seem, strangely enough is putting any value on the teachers holidays, which in this day and age are grossly excessive and a hangover from a time when children were required to work on farms to bring in the harvest. Do you not put any monetary value on your holidays?
I would advise anyone to get into teaching - particularly one of a couple as it is very family friendly. Being off at the same time as your children means childcare bills are much lower for teachers compared to the general work force. Teaching has a good salary, great conditions and great job security compared to the rest of the economy.
Who starts off on fulltime?
Have a look at educationposts.ie and tell me how many fulltime positions are available.
Starting out on €30 per hour ain't bad alright... Not great if it's only 6 hrs per week though, then when sub work dries up what do you do?
Ya sure holidays are great, I won't deny that (esp if there are two teachers).
Work conditions are great you say!!
Depends on the school I suppose, but I know there's some you or I wouldn't last a day in without being threatened or accused in some manner.
Anyhow, I'm done explaining, you have vastly more experience than I in teaching.. I think it's time to compare your own profession.
What's yer own hourly rate?0 -
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