Why is everyone going on strike?

Darith

newwan wrote: »

Drivers, teachers, nurses likely and guards blu flu...
What is going on?

Are they justified or is it a case of everyone wanting their slice of the pie?
To my mind we are still super vulnerable. Brexit hasnt bottomed yet. We still have a lot of emigration and unemployed youth.

I understand striking for better conditions, but it seems to me like its all for more pay.

Reading all of the terrible nursing stories are gut wrenchers so i was looking into it a bit. A lot of these stories are from student nurses. Its tough for everyone as a student. And those stories from 16 years qualified nurses, well from the freely available hse payscales these nurses have to be on more than 40k. I dont understand how it is so difficult to survive on over 40k. As an engineer i never earned over 40k and had a decent life (no house or flash car but definintely not on the bread line).

from a freedom of info article about 2 years ago in the middle of the HRA and LRA it seems 48% of nurses earn over 40k.

What is the story?
Are we repeating the same mistakes of the past and is another housing bubble or similiar bubble inevitable!?!

It's lansdowne road or no road. There is simply no money to cater for any more demands. Income tax & VAT is going south. Corporation tax is increasing but WHY? Apple bouncing IP like a tennis ball between jurisdictions. Other MNCs sheltering here because of tax? How long could that last considering the EU circling our tax rates like the soux. We are still borrowing to run the country with no room to even borrow for capital investment because of debt obligations. And now we have Brexit; the federal reserve threatening to hike rates and the ECB might stop printing money. No one is begrudging Public sector unions pay raises; the challenge has always been that when money gets tight the same unions will not entertain a reduction in the respective wage bills.

Jawgap

Darith wrote: »

It's lansdowne road or no road. There is simply no money to cater for any more demands. Income tax & VAT is going south. Corporation tax is increasing but WHY? Apple bouncing IP like a tennis ball between jurisdictions. Other MNCs sheltering here because of tax? How long could that last considering the EU circling our tax rates like the soux. We are still borrowing to run the country with no room to even borrow for capital investment because of debt obligations. And now we have Brexit; the federal reserve threatening to hike rates and the ECB might stop printing money. No one is begrudging Public sector unions pay raises; the challenge has always been that when money gets tight the same unions will not entertain a reduction in the respective wage bills.

It's not really - we're collecting more income tax and VAT than we were this time last year, but the target is not being met. According to the most recent returns (September) the cumulative year-on-year take is over €500 million (or 4.1%) more than it was last year for income tax and €490 million (5.1%) more for VAT.

Income tax is 0.9% off its target, and VAT is 2.7% off its target - hardly calamitous. Cap Gains receipts are very healthy on all accounts.

evolving_doors

Darith wrote: »

It's lansdowne road or no road. There is simply no money to cater for any more demands. Income tax & VAT is going south. Corporation tax is increasing but WHY? Apple bouncing IP like a tennis ball between jurisdictions. Other MNCs sheltering here because of tax? How long could that last considering the EU circling our tax rates like the soux. We are still borrowing to run the country with no room to even borrow for capital investment because of debt obligations. And now we have Brexit; the federal reserve threatening to hike rates and the ECB might stop printing money. No one is begrudging Public sector unions pay raises; the challenge has always been that when money gets tight the same unions will not entertain a reduction in the respective wage bills.

Ah! money did get tight and unions more than entertained reductions.
Croke Park 1,2,3 Haddington Road 1,2, Fempi, Lansdowne Road 1....

Lansdowne Road 2 is only around the corner.

fryup

maryishere wrote: »

Its just greed plain and simple, coupled with the excessive power of the unions in some sectors, with no power in others. According to the c.s.o., our average public sector wage is over €49k, which is way more than the average private sector wage. Indeed our public servants in Dundalk are paid nearly double what the public servants in Newry are paid. Then you get people on golden pensions. Irish society is very unfair.

x 100, totally agree.....its moneyed arrogance

i have some sympathy for teachers in rough schools...but the rest of them have it handy...3 months off every year c'mon now

Darith

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Darith wrote: »

It's lansdowne road or no road. There is simply no money to cater for any more demands. Income tax & VAT is going south. Corporation tax is increasing but WHY? Apple bouncing IP like a tennis ball between jurisdictions. Other MNCs sheltering here because of tax? How long could that last considering the EU circling our tax rates like the soux. We are still borrowing to run the country with no room to even borrow for capital investment because of debt obligations. And now we have Brexit; the federal reserve threatening to hike rates and the ECB might stop printing money. No one is begrudging Public sector unions pay raises; the challenge has always been that when money gets tight the same unions will not entertain a reduction in the respective wage bills.

Ah! money did get tight and unions more than entertained reductions.
Croke Park 1,2,3 Haddington Road 1,2, Fempi, Lansdowne Road 1....

Lansdowne Road 2 is only around the corner.

True and how much did we have to borrow to even honor those agreements?

Right2Write

Time for the government to stand tough and let the teachers and Gardai see that there isn't great public sympathy for their wage posturing.

noodler

Jawgap wrote: »

It's not really - we're collecting more income tax and VAT than we were this time last year, but the target is not being met. According to the most recent returns (September) the cumulative year-on-year take is over €500 million (or 4.1%) more than it was last year for income tax and €490 million (5.1%) more for VAT.

Income tax is 0.9% off its target, and VAT is 2.7% off its target - hardly calamitous. Cap Gains receipts are very healthy on all accounts.

What you fail to mention or udnerstand here is that our spending for the year is predicated on taxes being €700m ahead of profile.

At the moment it is below that.

Excheqeur results out later today or tomorrow so lets see how that pans out but to be clear - we need to get to €700m ahead of profile just to stand still.

Jawgap

noodler wrote: »

What you fail to mention or udnerstand here is that our spending for the year is predicated on taxes being €700m ahead of profile.

At the moment it is below that.

Excheqeur results out later today or tomorrow so lets see how that pans out but to be clear - we need to get to €700m ahead of profile just to stand still.

What you fail to mention or understand is that according to the Exchequer returns for end Q3 voted spending is €465 million (1.5%) below profile - the €700 million you are referring to is non-voted expenditure.

In total, the Exchequer deficit was €25 million at the end of September (effectively a rounding error) with a year-on-year improvement of €79 million......overall tax revenues were up 1.5% on profile and 5.7% year-on-year.....gross voted expenditure was down 1.1% on profile but up 1.8%
year-on-year......and the conclusion was we're "on target to achieve the revised 2016 forecast, of a general government deficit of 0.9 percent of GDP, as set out in the Summer Economic Statement."

.....hardly going 'south' as one poster suggested.

Darith

Jawgap wrote: »

noodler wrote: »

What you fail to mention or udnerstand here is that our spending for the year is predicated on taxes being 700m ahead of profile.

At the moment it is below that.

Excheqeur results out later today or tomorrow so lets see how that pans out but to be clear - we need to get to 700m ahead of profile just to stand still.

What you fail to mention or understand is that according to the Exchequer returns for end Q3 voted spending is 465 million (1.5%) below profile - the 700 million you are referring to is non-voted expenditure.

In total, the Exchequer deficit was 25 million at the end of September (effectively a rounding error) with a year-on-year improvement of 79 million......overall tax revenues were up 1.5% on profile and 5.7% year-on-year.....gross voted expenditure was down 1.1% on profile but up 1.8%
year-on-year......and the conclusion was we're "on target to achieve the revised 2016 forecast, of a general government deficit of 0.9 percent of GDP, as set out in the Summer Economic Statement."

.....hardly going 'south' as one poster suggested.

Thanks for clarifying that. I stand corrected. I honestly taught that some taxes were reducing, only the targets are; which thankfully for all concerned is not as challenging.

Jawgap

noodler wrote: »

What you fail to mention or udnerstand here is that our spending for the year is predicated on taxes being €700m ahead of profile.

At the moment it is below that.

Excheqeur results out later today or tomorrow so lets see how that pans out but to be clear - we need to get to €700m ahead of profile just to stand still.

I'll just leave this here.......



More details here - despite the extra spending on health and SW, the overall balance is running ahead of profile

newwan

Jawgap wrote: »

I'll just leave this here.......



More details here - despite the extra spending on health and SW, the overall balance is running ahead of profile

So give it all away to people already paid enough who will just give it straight to developers and bankers all over again?

In case you haven't noticed our hospitals are falling down.
We are still broke

Jawgap

newwan wrote: »

So give it all away to people already paid enough who will just give it straight to developers and bankers all over again?

In case you haven't noticed our hospitals are falling down.
We are still broke

As opposed to giving it all away to people who don't work.....

The achievement of this target is necessary to fund the overall gross voted expenditure of €56.1 billion for 2016 projected in the latest published information (the Expenditure Report 2017). This is €850 million higher than originally provided in the Revised Estimates Volume, as it includes the additional €500 million for Health and €40 million for Justice in the estimates voted by the Dáil on the 11 July this year and a further €310 million as reflected in the Expenditure Report 2017 to fund a Christmas Bonus for long-term Social Welfare recipients, for increased capital expenditure on the school building programme and for flood repairs to transport infrastructure.

....and to be honest the HSE could be fixed in short order if proper systems of governance were introduced, along with a forced redundancy programme and the removal of inefficient units from the system in favour of consolidation - and the only thing stopping that is the lack of political will because every TD knows what happens when we try to do health properly in this country - as the recent farago with John Holligan perfectly illustrated.

Bass Reeves

Jawgap wrote: »

As opposed to giving it all away to people who don't work.....

No as opposed to giving it back as tax relief to all workers. Or funding childcare for workers who work 40 hour weeks and only have 4 weeks off/year unlike teachers who are in a school from 9-3.30/4pm and have 18 weeks+ off/year.

Jawgap

Bass Reeves wrote: »

No as opposed to giving it back as tax relief to all workers. Or funding childcare for workers who work 40 hour weeks and only have 4 weeks off/year unlike teachers who are in a school from 9-3.30/4pm and have 18 weeks+ off/year.

You can't 'give' it back as tax relief - you could give it back as rebates, or give everyone a break on their property tax (the amount of the SW bonus looks to be roughly in line with what was collected under the LPT).

......and if you can't afford kids don't have them, or have them but don't expect the rest of us to subsidise childcare for your snowflakes.

On an weekly basis, gardaí are the best paid public sector workers by a distance. They earned on average €1,304 per week in the second quarter of this year

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/dan-obrien/dan-obrien-facts-about-how-much-garda-are-really-paid-must-be-central-in-talks-35184317.html

Piece from Dan O'Brien in the Indo today shows how well paid the vast majority are on average - well above the public and private sector.

And still they want more after rejecting the recent €2000 'parade' allowance.

This is bare faced greed on behalf of the GRA and AGSI.

salonfire

salonfire wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/dan-obrien/dan-obrien-facts-about-how-much-garda-are-really-paid-must-be-central-in-talks-35184317.html

Piece from Dan O'Brien in the Indo today shows how well paid the vast majority are on average - well above the public and private sector.

And still they want more after rejecting the recent €2000 'parade' allowance.

This is bare faced greed on behalf of the GRA and AGSI.

And how many gardai actually earn 1300 a week!!! I'd be delighted if I did, and I'm on the top rate of pay, 17 years service.
You do know how averages work right?
Garda commissioner 180,000+ a year
Guard ( actually out on the street, doing shifts, working) 23,000 a year

oppenheimer1

Jawgap wrote: »

As opposed to giving it all away to people who don't work.....



....and to be honest the HSE could be fixed in short order if proper systems of governance were introduced, along with a forced redundancy programme and the removal of inefficient units from the system in favour of consolidation - and the only thing stopping that is the lack of political will because every TD knows what happens when we try to do health properly in this country - as the recent farago with John Holligan perfectly illustrated.

It's not a lack of political will. Forced redundancies in the health service would certainly lead instantly to an all out strike. People would die and the government would be under enormous pressure to reverse the decision.

Security of tenure was something the unions weren't willing to concede during the crisis. They took cuts (and sold out young people) to maintain this. The problem is many of the most useless in the public sector are the most militant union members

Jawgap

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

It's not a lack of political will. Forced redundancies in the health service would certainly lead instantly to an all out strike. People would die and the government would be under enormous pressure to reverse the decision.

Security of tenure was something the unions weren't willing to concede during the crisis. They took cuts (and sold out young people) to maintain this. The problem is many of the most useless in the public sector are the most militant union members

The forced redundancies relate to the admin and management, not clinicians. Last time I took my kid to hospital (for a fracture clinic) his file passed through six sets of admin hands, but he only saw 2 clinicians - it is hugely overstaffed on the admin side, and something not helped by the multiplicity of sites they have.

And again, it's worth emphasising that a number of unions were all for redundancy and reform - it was DPER, not the unions, who insisted on no redundancies because they didn't have the money for a redundancy programme.

oppenheimer1

bubblypop wrote: »

And how many gardai actually earn 1300 a week!!! I'd be delighted if I did, and I'm on the top rate of pay, 17 years service.
You do know how averages work right?
Garda commissioner 180,000+ a year
Guard ( actually out on the street, doing shifts, working) 23,000 a year

No full time guard has a gross pay of €23k. Quoting basic is totally disingenuous

bubblypop

bubblypop wrote: »

And how many gardai actually earn 1300 a week!!! I'd be delighted if I did, and I'm on the top rate of pay, 17 years service.
You do know how averages work right?
Garda commissioner 180,000+ a year
Guard ( actually out on the street, doing shifts, working) 23,000 a year

Do you know how averages work?

It is taking the average across the Gardai. It is taking the average across the public sector. It is taking the average across the private sector.


And the Gardai comes out on top by miles. It is not particulary top heavy either - e.g. around 2,000 Inspectors and Sergeants for 10,500 garda rank

You sound shocked it is so much per week. And you'd be right to be shocked. That's the amount the Garda Siochana is costing the state per week - not counting pension and lump sums.


As for the garda on 23,000:
1. That is a tiny minority of new Gardai.
2. What about the unsocial and other allowances, why not mention those?

oppenheimer1

Jawgap wrote: »

The forced redundancies relate to the admin and management, not clinicians. Last time I took my kid to hospital (for a fracture clinic) his file passed through six sets of admin hands, but he only saw 2 clinicians - it is hugely overstaffed on the admin side, and something not helped by the multiplicity of sites they have.

And again, it's worth emphasising that a number of unions were all for redundancy and reform - it was DPER, not the unions, who insisted on no redundancies because they didn't have the money for a redundancy programme.

There were some that would have considered a voluntary redundancy programme and only if it was on extremely generous terms. Lay-offs would not have been countenanced.

oppenheimer1

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

No full time guard has a gross pay of €23k. Quoting basic is totally disingenuous

No true, they get an allowance for working nights, weekends, bank holidays, Christmas etc
Not much to be fair, for working all the days that no one else wants to!
It all depends on what exactly they work.
It's only a few thousand.
And I think it's well earned.

Bass Reeves

Jawgap wrote: »

You can't 'give' it back as tax relief - you could give it back as rebates, or give everyone a break on their property tax (the amount of the SW bonus looks to be roughly in line with what was collected under the LPT).

......and if you can't afford kids don't have them, or have them but don't expect the rest of us to subsidise childcare for your snowflakes.

Yes you can give it back as tax relief by indexing tax bands and by increasing tax credits these are tax reliefs. Property tax is already too low so no point in giving it out these. Any serious rise in public service pay will reduce the amount of money that can be spread about in services and capital expenditure.

O yes the usually red herring about if you can't afford kids. The one's that cannot afford kids always have batches of them because we target too much money at CA. However we targeted some of this as either a tax credit as they do in other countries or subsidize childcare that people that work can afford to have children it is of much more benefit down the line. Children of people that work will grow up to be workers and benefit the economy. In Ireland we have the lowest level of childcare subsidy across the developed world. It is immaterial to teachers because of there long holidays and short hours away from home and usually easy commute to and from work outside congested hour.

bubblypop wrote: »

And how many gardai actually earn 1300 a week!!! I'd be delighted if I did, and I'm on the top rate of pay, 17 years service.
You do know how averages work right?
Garda commissioner 180,000+ a year
Guard ( actually out on the street, doing shifts, working) 23,000 a year

Well if there are guards on 23K then there must be a lot of guards on 80-90K/year. This again shows the way unions use and abuse younger and newer members. The truth is that the GRA was given a solution for lower paid guards with the restoration of the accommodation allowance of 4K which would have put these members when shift allowance was taken into account on over 30K/year.

There is only one Garda comissioner. If his pay was spread over all Gardai it woulld effect the average by 13 euro/year. Gardai average pay is way above the general economy pay.

oppenheimer1

bubblypop wrote: »

No true, they get an allowance for working nights, weekends, bank holidays, Christmas etc
Not much to be fair, for working all the days that no one else wants to!
It all depends on what exactly they work.
It's only a few thousand.
And I think it's well earned.

Well earned or not they are still paid it on top of the €23k, so therefore it is totally misleading to imply that is all entrant gardai earn.

Jawgap

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Yes you can give it back as tax relief by indexing tax bands and by increasing tax credits these are tax reliefs. Property tax is already too low so no point in giving it out these. Any serious rise in public service pay will reduce the amount of money that can be spread about in services and capital expenditure.

A relief isn't the same as the SW bonus, a rebate would be the equivalent, not a relief, and I agree property taxes are too low - it was just to illustrate the scale of the cost of the SW bonus.

Bass Reeves wrote: »

O yes the usually red herring about if you can't afford kids. The one's that cannot afford kids always have batches of them because we target too much money at CA. However we targeted some of this as either a tax credit as they do in other countries or subsidize childcare that people that work can afford to have children it is of much more benefit down the line. Children of people that work will grow up to be workers and benefit the economy. In Ireland we have the lowest level of childcare subsidy across the developed world. It is immaterial to teachers because of there long holidays and short hours away from home and usually easy commute to and from work outside congested hour.

It's not a red herring, it's a simple fact - can't afford them, don't have them. And if we want to subsidise some element of child rearing, subsidise education. And do what if we have a low level of childcare subsidy, it's not like it's hampered our population growth, we also have one if the youngest populations.

All subsidies do is drive up prices - you really think crèche owners don't bump their prices every time one or other of those schemes come along.

bubblypop

bubblypop wrote: »

No true, they get an allowance for working nights, weekends, bank holidays, Christmas etc
Not much to be fair, for working all the days that no one else wants to!
It all depends on what exactly they work.
It's only a few thousand.
And I think it's well earned.

And add to that the recent offer of 4k rent allowance.

So now in a matter of minutes, we went from you quoting 23,000 to 23,000 + "only a few thousand" + 4k rent allowance offer + recent 15min parade offer for newbies.

And that's brings it up to beyond 30k on the table for new Gardai.

And still they rejected.

So tell us, what should they be grossing? 40k? 50k?

Bass Reeves

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Well if there are guards on 23K then there must be a lot of guards on 80-90K/year. This again shows the way unions use and abuse younger and newer members. The truth is that the GRA was given a solution for lower paid guards with the restoration of the accommodation allowance of 4K which would have put these members when shift allowance was taken into account on over 30K/year.

There is only one Garda comissioner. If his pay was spread over all Gardai it woulld effect the average by 13 euro/year. Gardai average pay is way above the general economy pay.

No, there are not a lot of gardai on 80 or 90k a year.
The problem I see is, that the general public see gardai as all the same. Gardai, sergeants, inspectors, superintendents, chief superintendents, assistant commissioners, deputy commissioners and one commissioner all taken as the same ' guards'
There is a massive difference in salary between ordinary gardai and a chief superintendent.
So giving people an average wage of ' gardai' doesn't actually reflect what a young, uniform Garda on the street earns.

Jawgap

salonfire wrote: »

And add to that the recent offer of 4k rent allowance.

So now in a matter of minutes, we went from you quoting 23,000 to 23,000 + "only a few thousand" + 4k rent allowance offer + recent 15min parade offer for newbies.

And that's brings it up to beyond 30k on the table for new Gardai.

And still they rejected.

So tell us, what should they be grossing? 40k? 50k?

How much would you want to be paid to have pi$$ thrown over you, suffer a broken eye socket, a fractured elbow, getting threatened with a firearm, disarming someone with a knife, being first on the scene to a decapitation, being spat at, having various objects thrown at you while on a motorbike and - my own favourite - getting kicked in the ribs while giving someone CPR........

.......all of which happened to my family members who are Guards.

Jawgap

Jawgap wrote: »

How much would you want to be paid to have pi$$ thrown over you, suffer a broken eye socket, a fractured elbow, getting threatened with a fire arm, disarming someone with a knife, being first on the scene to a decapitation, being spat at, having various objects thrown at you while on a motorbike and - my own favourite - getting kicked in the ribs while giving someone CPR........

.......all of which happened to my family members who are Guards.

Maybe we should pay them 100k starting off then? That will solve the problems you listed? And make a broken eye socked less broken? A fractured elbow less fractured ?

How do you see any logical connection between increasing already quite generous pay and the job downsides?

Remember, they have a claim to compensation as well on top of their salary if injured.

Jawgap

salonfire wrote: »

Maybe we should pay them 100k starting off then? That will solve the problems you listed? And make a broken eye socked less broken? A fractured elbow less fractured ?

How do you see any logical connection between increasing already quite generous pay and the job downsides?

Remember, they have a claim to compensation as well on top of their salary if injured.

Indeed, in the case of the eye socket and elbow they got mid five figure compensation payouts, but unless you've broken you're elbow you've no idea how painful it is......I'm guessing no one would see the compensation as making up for an injury like that!

Nobody is asking for €100k but restoring what was taken away, and removing the inequality in the pay structure would be an excellent start.

......and there's no compensation payable for pi$$ thrown over you by your fellow citizens when all your doing is making sure people can go lawfully about their business and earn a living.

Anyway, given that a lot of people seem to think they're overpaid and underworked, think of how much the country will save tomorrow

Jawgap

Jawgap wrote: »

Indeed, in the case of the eye socket and elbow they got mid five figure compensation payouts, but unless you've broken you're elbow you've no idea how painful it is......I'm guessing no one would see the compensation as making up for an injury like that!

Nobody is asking for €100k but restoring what was taken away, and removing the inequality in the pay structure would be an excellent start.

......and there's no compensation payable for pi$$ thrown over you by your fellow citizens when all your doing is making sure people can go lawfully about their business and earn a living.

Anyway, given that a lot of people seem to think they're overpaid and underworked, think of how much the country will save tomorrow

I am assuming you are referring to pay during the Celtic Tiger years? That's what you think the baseline should be, a period of runaway economic growth. Are we in a period of runaway economic growth at the minute with low national debt? I must have missed that part.


Why not restore to say 2001, adjusted for inflation?

Jawgap

salonfire wrote: »

I am assuming you are referring to pay during the Celtic Tiger years? That's what you think the baseline should be, a period of runaway economic growth. Are we in a period of runaway economic growth at the minute with low national debt? I must have missed that part.


Why not restore to say 2001, adjusted for inflation?

Because the pay wasn't unilaterally varied in 2001 the way it was in 2008/9 - the government flexed its power then, and now people are complaining when the unions reciprocate.

I see the AGSI have called off their action. GRA still talking.

K-9

bubblypop wrote: »

And how many gardai actually earn 1300 a week!!! I'd be delighted if I did, and I'm on the top rate of pay, 17 years service.
You do know how averages work right?
Garda commissioner 180,000+ a year
Guard ( actually out on the street, doing shifts, working) 23,000 a year

Yeah, but the force is 12 or 13,000 with about 500 top brass. That shouldn't have a major effect on the average.

Bass Reeves

Jawgap wrote: »

A relief isn't the same as the SW bonus, a rebate would be the equivalent, not a relief, and I agree property taxes are too low - it was just to illustrate the scale of the cost of the SW bonus.



It's not a red herring, it's a simple fact - can't afford them, don't have them. And if we want to subsidise some element of child rearing, subsidise education. And do what if we have a low level of childcare subsidy, it's not like it's hampered our population growth, we also have one if the youngest populations.

All subsidies do is drive up prices - you really think crèche owners don't bump their prices every time one or other of those schemes come along.

Then give it as a tax credit like theey do in the UK. The problem with subsidizing Education si taht most of the budget already goes on teachers pay. I see you still did not properly read my previous reply the cannot afford it crowd will have them anyway. The people in the economy that have the least disposable pay are those that work with young families and mortgages.

bubblypop wrote: »

No, there are not a lot of gardai on 80 or 90k a year.
The problem I see is, that the general public see gardai as all the same. Gardai, sergeants, inspectors, superintendents, chief superintendents, assistant commissioners, deputy commissioners and one commissioner all taken as the same ' guards'
There is a massive difference in salary between ordinary gardai and a chief superintendent.
So giving people an average wage of ' gardai' doesn't actually reflect what a young, uniform Garda on the street earns.

There has to be if there are gardai on an average of 63K and some are only earning 23K. There are a very limited no of senior officers above superintendent level. They would skew the average by only 1K when split across the rest. The 2K Sergeants and inspectors could not account for the total difference in pay. If 63K is the average and there are substancial numbers of Gardai on less than 40K then there are substandical numbers of ordinary Gardai on 70-80K as well.

Jawgap wrote: »

How much would you want to be paid to have pi$$ thrown over you, suffer a broken eye socket, a fractured elbow, getting threatened with a firearm, disarming someone with a knife, being first on the scene to a decapitation, being spat at, having various objects thrown at you while on a motorbike and - my own favourite - getting kicked in the ribs while giving someone CPR........

.......all of which happened to my family members who are Guards.

It comes with the Job just like being a prision officer has risks, other jobs have as well. Security people, farming has the highest risk of workplace death and serious accidents. late night work in shops and petrol stations etc etc.

Jawgap

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Then give it as a tax credit like theey do in the UK. The problem with subsidizing Education si taht most of the budget already goes on teachers pay. I see you still did not properly read my previous reply the cannot afford it crowd will have them anyway. The people in the economy that have the least disposable pay are those that work with young families and mortgages.

Wow, serious lack of understanding......a tax credit costs nothing, it can even bring more tax! A SW bonus costs real money, therefore a rebate to tax payers is comparable.

Teachers and lecturers pay is fixed centrally so improving access to education through more generous grants or greater tax relief on fees matters not a jot to teachers' salaries.

What's your point about young people, with kids and mortgages? That's called 'life' it's something we all have to go through......it's a phase generations have gone through!! Generation X and Y really have given way to generation snowflake.

STB.

salonfire wrote: »

Maybe we should pay them 100k starting off then? That will solve the problems you listed? And make a broken eye socked less broken? A fractured elbow less fractured ?

How do you see any logical connection between increasing already quite generous pay and the job downsides?

Remember, they have a claim to compensation as well on top of their salary if injured.

Maybe we should round up all the over paid private sector bankers and economists and likes etc and shoot them all, so there wont be the same mistakes again.

The way it works is you pay for the public service you get.

This government and the previous one have ensured that its at it knees.

Whilst the private sector bankers etc have been taking pay increases these guys are fighting for pay restoration.

This government boyos including the head boys who pushed through their own individual pay increases are shoving shíte down others throats.
Its that simple. If you dont get it, you are simple.

And I'm not a guard or emergency services member etc.

Jawgap

Bass Reeves wrote: »

It comes with the Job just like being a prision officer has risks, other jobs have as well. Security people, farming has the highest risk of workplace death and serious accidents. late night work in shops and petrol stations etc etc.

Farming is undoubtedly dangerous but we don't ask farmers, or security staff to put themselves in harm's way to protect their fellow citizens - they're allowed run away from danger, we expect Guards and firefighters to run towards it as part of their job.

Danger is incidental to the jobs you mentioned it's inherent in the Guards' and firefighters' jobs.

mansize

GRA and AGSI defer strike action

fliball123

STB. wrote: »

Maybe we should round up all the over paid private sector bankers and economists and likes etc and shoot them all, so there wont be the same mistakes again.

The way it works is you pay for the public service you get.

This government and the previous one have ensured that its at it knees.

Whilst the private sector bankers etc have been taking pay increases these guys are fighting for pay restoration.

This government boyos including the head boys who pushed through their own individual pay increases are shoving shíte down others throats.
Its that simple. If you dont get it, you are simple.

And I'm not a guard or emergency services member etc.

are you kidding me the money we pay for our public service is first world we pay the best pay and give the best conditions and there are large parts that are third wold. You only need to go to Beaumount hospital one night and see it for yourself its a phucking joke and an expensive one at that

newwan

bubblypop wrote: »

And how many gardai actually earn 1300 a week!!! I'd be delighted if I did, and I'm on the top rate of pay, 17 years service.
You do know how averages work right?
Garda commissioner 180,000+ a year
Guard ( actually out on the street, doing shifts, working) 23,000 a year

If you know how well averages work then you'll agree the correct amount of money is being paid to the guards is enough... But it just needs to be redistributed.
And so the whole strike is just holding the country for ransom for the complete wrong reasons....

newwan

Jawgap wrote: »

How much would you want to be paid to have pi$$ thrown over you, suffer a broken eye socket, a fractured elbow, getting threatened with a firearm, disarming someone with a knife, being first on the scene to a decapitation, being spat at, having various objects thrown at you while on a motorbike and - my own favourite - getting kicked in the ribs while giving someone CPR........

.......all of which happened to my family members who are Guards.

Way more dangerous being a farmer than a cop.

Jawgap

newwan wrote: »

Way more dangerous being a farmer than a cop.

Already covered.....

Jawgap wrote: »

Farming is undoubtedly dangerous but we don't ask farmers, or security staff to put themselves in harm's way to protect their fellow citizens - they're allowed run away from danger, we expect Guards and firefighters to run towards it as part of their job.

Danger is incidental to the jobs you mentioned it's inherent in the Guards' and firefighters' jobs.

Just a random selection of Scott Medal commendations......

Garda Gavin Cahill, was only a student garda when he fearlessly came to the aid of his senior colleague, Garda Joseph Glackin, who was shot in the hand by ruthless raiders in Finglas, Dublin on October 27, 2004.

Gda Bolton was honoured for foiling an armed robbery in Portmarnock, Dublin on November 16, 2012.

Gda Bolton was on bicycle duty that day and, as he responded to the alert over the credit union robbery, came across two suspects, one of whom pointed a gun directly at him.

The suspect later fired at Gda Bolton, who was forced to dive behind a parked car for cover.

The armed raider later approached Gda Bolton a second time in a bid to frighten him away.

But thanks to the persistence and courage of the young garda, the culprits were later apprehended by support units which had raced to the scene.

newwan

Jawgap wrote: »

......and if you can't afford kids don't have them, or have them but don't expect the rest of us to subsidise childcare for your snowflakes.

Lol. Pot kettle.

And re farmers you've brought it up at least 3 times so yes it is already covered and based on very little substance.

The state doesn't employ farmers. We could if we so wished (we shouldn't) simply import any and all of our food and just ignore all indigenous products.

The state does employ Gardaí, they're an essential part of the public service. They are the front line of the rule of law, the bedrock of the state, and lets be totally honest, they mostly do a great job in light of some pretty lousy circumstances.

I have no problem discussing pay increases for individual cases, but wish people would stop with the obfuscatory noise and just detail the costs and the benefits.

The games of brinksmanship that we play out every X years across all of the public sector is both polarising and ultimately costly. Honesty and some genuine details being made available to the public so that we can see what the additional costs are and what the benefits are shouldn't be difficult to portray.

The 'increments', 'allowances', 'averages', 'medians' etc are all ways that people try to hide some elements of the details in order to cast light on a specific part that supports their viewpoint.

ONS should have be permitted to make figures available for scrutiny by any and all.
X Gardaí in service Y years. Z Gardaí worked between 1680 and 1800 hours last year. C Gardaí worked 600 hours of overtime at a cost of F to the exchequer etc.

The problem with this ideal I expect is that those that 'game' the system (both internally and externally - that's you the PS Unions) would hate the idea that we might notice and would do their best to keep it under wraps.

Jawgap

newwan wrote: »

Lol. Pot kettle.

And re farmers you've brought it up at least 3 times so yes it is already covered and based on very little substance.

Some things bear repeating. Fact is, farming is dangerous and not only can it be made safer, it is wholly within the power of the farming community to make it safer - for example, if people just respected the rules around PTOs and slurry pits. Policing can never be made safer - it's only getting more dangerous as the ongoing gang feuding shows.

I'm not sure where you get the allusion to pots and kettles - I'm happy to admit I've 2 sprogs, and on occasion I've paid for their childcare or made other arrangements - I just never whinged on about it, I just got on with trying to bring them up (i.e. not screw their lives up).

newwan

Jawgap wrote: »

I'm not sure where you get the allusion to pots and kettles - I'm happy to admit I've 2 sprogs, and on occasion I've paid for their childcare or made other arrangements - I just never whinged on about it, I just got on with trying to bring them up (i.e. not screw their lives up).

Sure that is the basis of the entire strike. Groups of people want to return to the glory days of the celtic Tiger/pig...
Sure don't you know it's not a pay rise but a Restoration.
I along with all my colleagues grossed 21k when we qualified and we survived. With no allowances

These strikes are pure Greed and ignorance

hmmm

During the Celtic Tiger, our tax revenue was dependent on bubble property revenue. Today, it is dependent on unsustainable Corporation Tax receipts from companies using us as a tax haven. In both cases, that income can disappear overnight due to events outside our control.

Our government should be putting that money aside as "exceptional", and not basing our spending level on the back of it. Sadly we seem to be doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past over and over again.

Jawgap

newwan wrote: »

Sure that is the basis of the entire strike. Groups of people want to return to the glory days of the celtic Tiger/pig...
Sure don't you know it's not a pay rise but a Restoration.
I along with all my colleagues grossed 21k when we qualified and we survived. With no allowances

These strikes are pure Greed and ignorance

Nothing wrong with pay restoration - FEMPI was brought in to address a financial emergency......as a series of Exchequer Returns have made abundantly clear, the emergency has passed - why shouldn't people look for the restoration of something that was removed unilaterally?

....and yes, like everyone I started on a rubbish salary and worked my way up, but I certainly don't begrudge people like Gardai and nurses getting a higher salary - it's only when you're in trouble you realise how valuable these people are.

Idbatterim

Our government should be putting that money aside as "exceptional", and not basing our spending level on the back of it. Sadly we seem to be doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past over and over again.

Isnt this what they are doing with their "fiscal space"? personally Id invest it in infrastructure, which they will cut to nothing anyway if and when the **** hits the fan again. We have an infrastructure deficit and it is creating problems on a number of fronts...

they can take several billion off the capital spending budget and no one will bat an eye lid, they could take a million of the welfare bill and there would be murder!

newwan

Jawgap wrote: »

Nothing wrong with pay restoration.

Yes there is where It's restoration to unsustainable times. Or do you think everything was just fine with out financial policies in 06?