Why is everyone going on strike?

Jawgap

Anita Blow wrote: »

The Health at a Glance 2015 report only includes actively employed nurses & physicians "providing a direct service to patients in a public and private system". The only country for which the OECD said it was unable to provide a statistic was Portugal because they were the only ones to provide the total amount licensed to practice, rather than actively practicing.
http://www.keepeek.com/Digital-Asset-Management/oecd/social-issues-migration-health/health-at-a-glance-2015/nurses_health_glance-2015-26-en#page1

Well if you go to the underlying database you'll see the following caveat....

Nurses are defined as all the "practising" nurses providing direct health services to patients, including self-employed nurses. However, for some countries (France, Greece, Ireland, Italy, the Netherlands, Portugal, Slovakia, Turkey and the United States), due to lack of comparable data, the figures correspond to "professionally active" nurses, including nurses working in the health sector as managers, educators, researchers, etc

....although I appreciate that doesn't tie in with the narrative of a bloated public service.....nor do the figures on nursing graduates etc.

We turn out huge numbers of medical graduates (the highest per 1000 population in the OECD by a decent measure) - so if salaries are so good, why do so few choose to stay?

We also have one of the lowest hospital beds/1000 population figures, but discharge rates and length of stay are middle of the road - and then people wonder why there's overcrowding?

Anita Blow

Exactly. Hospital beds & low number of doctors staying in the health service are causing overcrowding.

Jawgap

Anita Blow wrote: »

Exactly. Hospital beds & low number of doctors staying in the health service are causing overcrowding.

So, why do you think we produce so many high quality graduates but so few remain here when people are saying they are some of the best paid in the OECD, if not globally?

Why would a medical or nursing graduate give up the chance to live and work here on such a generous salary, in favour of emigrating, and all that entails?

Could it be that salaries aren't really as good here as people make out? Especially when you factor in cost of living, professional development etc.

To use my own case as an example - when I worked in the PS I had, on the face of it, a decent salary.....BUT, unlike every other job I held I had to cover my own professional indemnity insurance. My headline salary now is about what I was getting in the PS, but my employer covers my 'ticket' - and pays for my CPD (including allowing me time off for it), something else the PS doesn't cover, but which you have to maintain (and just to be clear, I'm not any kind of medic, but I do work that brings me into contact, occasionally, with the country's health services).

Cookie_Monster

Jawgap wrote: »

So, why do you think we produce so many high quality graduates but so few remain here when people are saying they are some of the best paid in the OECD, if not globally?

That's a very easy answer tbh. While salary may be good, the hours and shift patterns are appalling. Coupled with the high cost of living (and the high cost of running a business in some cases) and tax burden and the terrible standard of services it's easy to see why people who are in demand worldwide move away from Ireland.
(never mind the weather too)

Jawgap

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

That's a very easy answer tbh. While salary may be good, the hours and shift patterns are appalling. Coupled with the high cost of living (and the high cost of running a business in some cases) and tax burden and the terrible standard of services it's easy to see why people who are in demand worldwide move away from Ireland.
(never mind the weather too)

Indeed, and that's what so many fail to grasp. On paper PS salaries can look generous but factor in the 'ancillaries' and any notional advantage quickly evaporates.

evolving_doors

newwan wrote: »

I asked you for proof that public sector ppl were higher educated than private.

And no I don't have to accept that higher education must mean higher wages and ill tell you why.

If a private sector guy with PhD opens his own business and it goes bust does he still deserve high wages?

No he deserves unemployment support and to be encouraged to restart until he gets it right.

Giving people things for free or when they don't deserve it breaks the economy and not only demotivates the receiver but also demoralises the hard working productive guy who sees these other getting things they don't necessarily deserve.

I've no problem with productive public servants getting well paid. I have a major problem with everyone getting the same.
And if anyone tells me that these things are hard to audit I'll scream. They are 1000s of managers in the PS....

Ok fine if you don't accept the stats (!)
But that's just the way it is with averages.
Talking about a PhD guy going bust in the private sector is 1 case in a sample population of a few hundred thousand. That's not how averages translate to 1 person.

Who's talking about ' everyone getting the same ' anyway? Do you think everyone in the public sector is actually on the same 'ginormous' average wage?

evolving_doors

newwan wrote: »

Quote from author of largest Facebook page leading this

Source?

evolving_doors

newwan wrote: »

I asked you for proof that public sector ppl were higher educated than private.

[...]..

And you got it.
But you don't like it.
So you say it aint so.

newwan

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Ok fine if you don't accept the stats (!)
But that's just the way it is with averages.
Talking about a PhD guy going bust in the private sector is 1 case in a sample population of a few hundred thousand. That's not how averages translate to 1 person.

Who's talking about ' everyone getting the same ' anyway? Do you think everyone in the public sector is actually on the same 'ginormous' average wage?

Every Nurse For ExamPle At Year 2 Post Grad Gets Paid The Same SalarY As Every Other Nurse At Year 2 Post Grad. Or Dont They?

No That Phd Guy Is Relevant. Because Private Sector peoPle Are Let Go If Useless. public Sector Is A Job For Life. . .

phone Is GonE Mad Sorry

newwan

Gebgbegb wrote: »

And you got it.
But you don't like it.
So you say it aint so.

No. You Dont Understand Me. I havent Passed Any Comment On WheTher I Like Their Level Of Education Or Not.

Neither Did I Disagree With The proof. You Should Read A BIt More Closely. Sorry

evolving_doors

newwan wrote: »

Every Nurse For ExamPle At Year 2 Post Grad Gets Paid The Same SalarY As Every Other Nurse At Year 2 Post Grad. Or Dont They?

Oh I get it now... you are saying there should be a metric for rating every single nurse and giving a pay commensurate with these ratings (am I correct !)

If so, could you suggest a way for doing this.
They tried pay related performance with Irish Water employees.... in the end the media just started to call them 'salary bonuses'.
Would you be happy with nurses getting 'pay bonuses'.?

newwan wrote: »

No That Phd Guy Is Relevant. Because Private Sector peoPle Are Let Go If Useless. public Sector Is A Job For Life. . .

phone Is GonE Mad Sorry

Ok take that guy with the PhD in the private sector. If he had a PhD relevant to a job spec in the public sector (say lecturer in 3rd level university) do you think he should be paid the same as a hairdresser in the private sector?

Also, using your point that he wants to set up a private business in the private sector... do you think that him having a PhD will serve him better than not having one (assuming that his PhD is somehow related to the field he is intending to exploit with his new company)?

Higher education = higher pay.... on average

newwan

Yes there should be some measures and good work must be incentivised.

How do people not see this?

This is the basis of how you train any animal with a limbic system. It is why humans are the top of the food chain.

Doing what you are suggesting breaks the economy and leads to the xeltic crash

barneystinson

newwan wrote: »

Yes there should be some measures and good work must be incentivised.

How do people not see this?

I don't think any / many people fail to see this (other than hardcore commies).

The difficulty is with applying this principle in practice - it's fine for a small owner managed business, but is there any particular large private sector employer, or for that matter a public sector in another developed country, to whom you think we should aspire??

No disrespect, but it's the easiest thing in the world to give out in anonymous Internet forums about how things should be done, whereas it's entirely more difficult to suggest a feasible alternative. I'm certainly all ears though, as a high performing public sector employee (in my own biased view!)...

evolving_doors

newwan wrote: »

Yes there should be some measures and good work must be incentivised.

How do people not see this?

This is the basis of how you train any animal with a limbic system. It is why humans are the top of the food chain.

Doing what you are suggesting breaks the economy and leads to the xeltic crash

Ok you seem to be on to something there... Treat humans like an untrained animal
Can you be a bit more specific?

Like a pavlov experiment type thing is it?

newwan

Well I absolutely disagree that people understand that pay must be incentivised. The entire public service is built as a job for life.

People are unsackable.
Half a million people are unsackable...

I was a private sector employee in a company of 10k people and twice a year I sat down with my manager. Some years I got a good bonus some years none.

Now I'm in public service and I have the same... I sit many exams and am constantly evaluated

newwan

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Ok you seem to be on to something there... Treat humans like an untrained animal
Can you be a bit more specific?

Like a pavlov experiment type thing is it?

Lol that would be just for you mate!!!

😉

Godge

Jawgap wrote: »

Well if you go to the underlying database you'll see the following caveat....



....although I appreciate that doesn't tie in with the narrative of a bloated public service.....nor do the figures on nursing graduates etc.

We turn out huge numbers of medical graduates (the highest per 1000 population in the OECD by a decent measure) - so if salaries are so good, why do so few choose to stay?

We also have one of the lowest hospital beds/1000 population figures, but discharge rates and length of stay are middle of the road - and then people wonder why there's overcrowding?

On the data on numbers of nurses, one of the big failures of successive FF governments on health was the creation of numerous nursing management positions as an alternative to extra pay for all nurses. It created an impression of a bloated management in the health service, depleted front-line services and created a whole cadre of employees with little to do and little knowledge of how to do that little.

Godge

newwan wrote: »

Well I absolutely disagree that people understand that pay must be incentivised. The entire public service is built as a job for life.

People are unsackable.
Half a million people are unsackable...

I was a private sector employee in a company of 10k people and twice a year I sat down with my manager. Some years I got a good bonus some years none.

Now I'm in public service and I have the same... I sit many exams and am constantly evaluated

Link to half a million employees in the public sector.

You have made a number of statements here about various things, most of whom appear wrong to me but I haven't the time to check them out - if you could show me where you got this one, I might give consideration to some of your other "facts".

newwan

What else is wrong? That's probably the only incorrect statement I've ever made ;-)

evolving_doors

newwan wrote: »

Well I absolutely disagree that people understand that pay must be incentivised. The entire public service is built as a job for life.

People are unsackable.
Half a million people are unsackable...

I was a private sector employee in a company of 10k people and twice a year I sat down with my manager. Some years I got a good bonus some years none.

Now I'm in public service and I have the same... I sit many exams and am constantly evaluated

Do you think you as a public sector employee should be incentivised to do better work then (pay bonuses)?

TepinTheGreat

The cycle will continue until everyone gets a pay raise to keep with inflation and then it will start all over again.

Sudden Valley

I don't begrudge any employee from using any bargaining method available to them to get a pay-rise. If everyone here were to be honest they would ask for the same if they were in this situation. But it would be more beneficial to everyone if the cost of living went down especially something like motor insurance. The government have handled both situations very badly.

TepinTheGreat

This minority government will only be able to handle things badly. Parish pump politics and all that....

Sudden Valley wrote: »

I don't begrudge any employee from using any bargaining method available to them to get a pay-rise. If everyone here were to be honest they would ask for the same if they were in this situation. But it would be more beneficial to everyone if the cost of living went down especially something like motor insurance. The government have handled both situations very badly.

newwan

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Do you think you as a public sector employee should be incentivised to do better work then (pay bonuses)?

Well I am very happy with my pay which probably means I'm being paid too much.
But there is no pay incentive for me other doing lots more hours. I could be as inefficient and thick as the wall (which I prob am) and still get paid the same.

There is an incentive for me to work smart in terms of getting a better job years down the line but nothing now

TepinTheGreat

newwan wrote: »

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Do you think you as a public sector employee should be incentivised to do better work then (pay bonuses)?

Well I am very happy with my pay which probably means I'm being paid too much.
But there is no pay incentive for me other doing lots more hours. I could be as inefficient and thick as the wall (which I prob am) and still get paid the same.

There is an incentive for me to work smart in terms of getting a better job years down the line but nothing now

Well then, the rest of us need a pay raise too so we can be paid too much and be happy with our pay.

newwan

TepinTheGreat wrote: »

Well then, the rest of us need a pay raise too so we can be paid too much and be happy with our pay.

Or else everyone else could spend less and not have mortgages and cars they can't afford.

I have to say it's becoming clear to me that very few people understand why the economy over the world nearly failed. And because we don't understand it then it will fail again and soon.

The banks did not cause this alone. The people who took out mortgages they couldn't afford with a tradesman husband caused this every bit as much as the bank manager

People think they have a right to own a 3 bed semi. Well they don't. No one has a right to anything regardless how hard they work. You only have a right to what you own and can account for. Anything else is just a fairy tale.

What people are deserving of is a whole other thing and I'm sure lots of people work very hard

Good loser

newwan wrote: »

Well I am very happy with my pay which probably means I'm being paid too much.
But there is no pay incentive for me other doing lots more hours. I could be as inefficient and thick as the wall (which I prob am) and still get paid the same.

There is an incentive for me to work smart in terms of getting a better job years down the line but nothing now

I worked in the public service for many years and always thought we were paid too much.

Used to look at work related trade magazines in England with job ads at the back; there,for lower salaries, people were expected to supervise 50 - 100 workers while I supervised nobody.

Gumbo

Good loser wrote: »

I worked in the public service for many years and always thought we were paid too much.

Used to look at work related trade magazines in England with job ads at the back; there,for lower salaries, people were expected to supervise 50 - 100 workers while I supervised nobody.

Course you did. That why you handed back some of your wages each week.......yeah.

Good loser

kceire wrote: »

Course you did. That why you handed back some of your wages each week.......yeah.

The sense of entitlement of some of the 'do nothings' in there was boundless.

Jawgap

Good loser wrote: »

The sense of entitlement of some of the 'do nothings' in there was boundless.

I think the LUAS strike proved that is not an exclusively public sector phenomenon

Gumbo

Good loser wrote: »

The sense of entitlement of some of the 'do nothings' in there was boundless.

Yeah course it was