Why is everyone going on strike?

The Muppet

maryishere wrote: »

The Muppet wrote: »

Are you seriously referring to Nurses Teachers Gardai as small fish?

Given average public sector wage is 49,000 a year they are very well paid small fish, especially considering their perks of job security and golden pension.

Keep up Mary . The average wage argument has been debunked a couple of times all ready.

newwan

No it hasn't been 'debunked'. I must leave this thread.
What unit would a first year nurse be in charge of?

The Muppet

newwan wrote: »

No it hasn't been 'debunked'. I must leave this thread.
What unit would a first year nurse be in charge of?

Yes it has.

Any unit they are working on if they end up as the only nurse on duty which can and does happen .

maryishere

newwan wrote: »

Are you the person that said they wouldn't get out of bed for 12k more than the average Irish wage?

Pyblic servants may not want to get out of bed for 12k more than the average Irish wage but its just as well some people do.

Sometimes even Gardai earning €75,000 complain that they have to live on cornflakes? It doesn't add up.
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/charlie-weston/charlie-weston-a-garda-earning-75000-and-living-on-cornflakes-it-doesnt-add-up-28820716.html

tayto lover

L wrote: »

Gardai start on 23k. They're not well paid.

That is an absolute scandal. Abuse really.
I wouldn't allow any of my kids near it at that money.

The Muppet

maryishere wrote: »

newwan wrote: »

Are you the person that said they wouldn't get out of bed for 12k more than the average Irish wage?

Pyblic servants may not want to get out of bed for 12k more than the average Irish wage but its just as well some people do.

Sometimes even Gardai earning 75,000 complain that they have to live on cornflakes? It doesn't add up.
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/charlie-weston/charlie-weston-a-garda-earning-75000-and-living-on-cornflakes-it-doesnt-add-up-28820716.html

Keep up Mary it was a private sector engineer who said he wouldn't get out of bed for 40k .

Harvey Normal

The Muppet wrote: »

Ah we're back to averages . I'm sure you don't need me to explain the flaw in using them but I will any way .

Take 4 people in an office. one earns 125 k the other 3 25 k . On average they are all equal earning 50 k each the reality of the situation of course is very different.

We should use the median. That's probably high enough though.

maryishere

The Muppet wrote: »

Keep up Mary it was a private sector engineer who said he wouldn't get out of bed for 40k .

Keep up Muppet it was pointed out many private sector engineers, quantity surveyors, architects etc earn well less than 40k, and do not have job security or a golden penbsion to look forward to either.

Harvey Normal

newwan wrote: »

She's a first year so
That's 2k more than what I started on way back in celtic boom times as an engineer and that's before her overtime is added etc which I never got and I survived as I commuted...

And lastly your point is bordering on irrelevant as it's a case study of 1 looking at the extreme...

Its not 'my 40k'. Those numbers are freely available freedom of info act numbers. They are the inmo and government of Ireland numbers

Oh and lastly... Are you actually serious re 1500 average rent in Dublin? That's the avg rent for a 3 bed house in dub. You think a first year nurse should be able to afford to rent a 3 bed house apartment by herself in our capital?

That's the rent for a one bedroom apartment in parts of Dublin.

maryishere

L wrote: »

Gardai start on 23k.

When they are learning the ropes. And there are no shortage of suitable applicants. Have a look at what they finish with though.
69k a year before retirement, which they can do after only 30 years.
The years retirees in this article got a 107,000 tax free windfall each plus a pension of 33,000 a year. That is the pension, on average. Thats not far off the average industrial wage...where people have to rear kids, pay rent or a mortgage etc.
http://www.herald.ie/news/retiring-gardai-will-get-average-payoff-of-107k-28000137.html

maryishere

maryishere wrote: »

When they are learning the ropes. And there are no shortage of suitable applicants. Have a look at what they finish with though.
69k a year before retirement, which they can do after only 30 years.
http://www.herald.ie/news/retiring-gardai-will-get-average-payoff-of-107k-28000137.html

Please point out just exactly where you found the figure that a Garda earns 69k a year before retirement?

The Muppet

maryishere wrote: »

Pyblic servants may not want to get out of bed for 12k more than the average Irish wage but its just as well some people do.

You've lost me mary I didn't see any public servant say they wouldn't get out of bed for 12 k more than the average industrial wage. In a couple of posts that'll be fact if left unchallenged.

As I explained it was an engineer who made that statement.

blackplum123

He/she has picked up a bull**** 69000euro because it suits his/hers bull **** argument !!

Geuze

newwan wrote: »

None taken. Well a lot actually. That's far above the average industrial wage.

Average earnings = 36 k

Average earnings in industry = 45 k

CSO data.

maryishere

bubblypop wrote: »

Please point out just exactly where you found the figure that a Garda earns 69k a year before retirement?

I gave you the link showing that years retiring Gardai got a 107,000 tax free windfall each plus a pension of 33,000 a year.
The tax free windfall is 18 months salary and pension is 50% of salary. Do not forget also they can retire after only 30 years.

maryishere

maryishere wrote: »

I gave you the link showing that years retiring Gardai got a 107,000 tax free windfall each plus a pension of 33,000 a year.
The tax free windfall is 18 months salary and pension is 50% of salary. Do not forget also they can retire after only 30 years.

While one Garda may have got that amount, I believe the actual severance payment is approx 80k. Worked out over the last ten years of service.
How many gardai retire after 30 years? I don't know the figures but I'm going to guess ( from watching people retire over the last 18 years) that they actually work for many more years.
The payment into pension does not stop after 30 years, even though gardai have paid their full contribution, they keep on paying until they do retire.
You also work out that a Garda earns 69k before retiring based in the above figures, which is wrong.
Remember Mary, that management in AGS are on a hell of a lot more money than gardai. Any average figures include management salaries which are in no way comparable to ordinary gardai.

Graham

The Muppet wrote: »

Ah we're back to averages . I'm sure you don't need me to explain the flaw in using them but I will any way .

Take 4 people in an office. one earns 125 k the other 3 25 k . On average they are all equal earning 50 k each the reality of the situation of course is very different.

The Muppet wrote: »

Keep up Mary . The average wage argument has been debunked a couple of times all ready.

Seriously? That's your debunking?

You're really honestly straight-faced suggesting the public/private sector pay gap isn't as enormous if you remove the highest paid public sector employees?

The Muppet

Graham wrote: »

The Muppet wrote: »

Ah we're back to averages . I'm sure you don't need me to explain the flaw in using them but I will any way .

Take 4 people in an office. one earns 125 k the other 3 25 k . On average they are all equal earning 50 k each the reality of the situation of course is very different.

The Muppet wrote: »

Keep up Mary . The average wage argument has been debunked a couple of times all ready.

Seriously? That's your debunking?

You're really honestly straight-faced suggesting the public/private sector pay gap isn't as enormous if you remove the highest paid public sector employees?

I think it adequately display the reason why using average wage is flawed . If you want to break it down work ahead.

The Muppet

Graham wrote: »

The Muppet wrote: »

Ah we're back to averages . I'm sure you don't need me to explain the flaw in using them but I will any way .

Take 4 people in an office. one earns 125 k the other 3 25 k . On average they are all equal earning 50 k each the reality of the situation of course is very different.

The Muppet wrote: »

Keep up Mary . The average wage argument has been debunked a couple of times all ready.

Seriously? That's your debunking?

You're really honestly straight-faced suggesting the public/private sector pay gap isn't as enormous if you remove the highest paid public sector employees?

I think it adequately display the reason why using average wage is flawed . If you want to break it down work ahead.

maryishere

bubblypop wrote: »

While one Garda may have got that amount, I believe the actual severance payment is approx 80k.

Over all of the Gardai who retired that year, the average was €107,000. Tax free. Read the article. I provided the link. They also got a pension of 33,000 a year.
The tax free windfall is 18 months salary and pension is 50% of salary. Do not forget also they can retire after only 30 years. All Gardai will admit that, it is public knowledge they can and do retire after 30 years service.

maryishere

The Muppet wrote: »

I think it adequately display the reason why using average wage is flawed .

If using average is flawed for the public sector it is flawed for the private sector too. Blame your own c.s.o. Until they provide median figures we can use the average public sector figures and average private sector figures. It is accurate enough.

maryishere

maryishere wrote: »

Over all of the Gardai who retired that year, the average was €107,000. Tax free. Read the article. I provided the link. They also got a pension of 33,000 a year.
The tax free windfall is 18 months salary and pension is 50% of salary. Do not forget also they can retire after only 30 years. All Gardai will admit that, it is public knowledge they can and do retire after 30 years service.

Average Mary, average. Includes commissioner, assistant commissioner, deputy commissioner, chief superintendents, superintendents, you get the picture.
Yes they can retire after 30 years, how many do though? How many gardai keep on working & paying into a pension?

Graham

The Muppet wrote: »

I think it adequately display the reason why using average wage is flawed .

It doesn't.

The latest CSO figures on earnings and labour costs shows an average increase of 0.5% in the year to June 2016, with the average wage standing at €704 per week. The pay gap between Public and Private wages now stands at 40%.

maryishere

bubblypop wrote: »

Average Mary, average. Includes commissioner, assistant commissioner, deputy commissioner, chief superintendents, superintendents, you get the picture.

lol. The commissioner, assistant commissioner, deputy commissioner, chief superintendents, superintendents did not ALL retire that year. The average is take from ALL the Gardai who retired that year.
And yes, Gardai are entitled to FULL pension after only 30 years. You will find some of the 50 something year old retirees on the golf courses of Spain and Portugal.

maryishere

maryishere wrote: »

lol. The commissioner, assistant commissioner, deputy commissioner, chief superintendents, superintendents did not ALL retire that year. The average is take from ALL the Gardai who retired that year.
And yes, Gardai are entitled to FULL pension after only 30 years. You will find some of the 50 something year old retirees on the golf courses of Spain and Portugal.

Even one retirement from those ranks brings up an average figure, surely you understand averages Mary?
I know they can retire after 30 years, everyone is well aware of that.
How many do though Mary?
I know you love to talk about the fabulous pension gardai get, but what advantage is that to a 20 or 30 something year old Garda, trying to bring up a family and pay childcare, mortgage etc.
It's not relevant at all to them
They can struggle for 30+ years, safe in the knowledge that when they are old and retired and don't need as much money, they will have plenty?

The Muppet

Graham wrote: »

The Muppet wrote: »

I think it adequately display the reason why using average wage is flawed .

It doesn't.

The latest CSO figures on earnings and labour costs shows an average increase of 0.5% in the year to June 2016, with the average wage standing at 704 per week. The pay gap between Public and Private wages now stands at 40%.

It does. I understand you reluctance to accept that as it leaves that side of this debate with nothing .

Graham

bubblypop wrote: »

They can struggle for 30+ years, safe in the knowledge that when they are old and retired and don't need as much money, they will have plenty?

What's average pay for Gardai after 5/10/20/25years in the job?

You have hit one issue worth digging into:

How about a significant reduction in the retirement/other benefits for the PS in return for keeping the above average wages? That sounds much fairer than trying to have it both ways and would go someway to reducing the costs of the PS.

Jawgap

maryishere wrote: »

Over all of the Gardai who retired that year, the average was €107,000. Tax free. Read the article. I provided the link. They also got a pension of 33,000 a year.
The tax free windfall is 18 months salary and pension is 50% of salary. Do not forget also they can retire after only 30 years. All Gardai will admit that, it is public knowledge they can and do retire after 30 years service.

That figure is from 2012 no?

The more recent figures (2015) show about €24.2m was paid out to 238 retiring Guards - giving a figure of €101,654 per retiring Guard as an average.....

However, 24 of those retirees we Inspectors or above and the figures show that the total of the top 20 gratuities was about €2.9m.

Stripping out the top 20 (most of whom were probably the higher ranked Guards on the list) means 218 retiring Gardai shared €21.315m in retirement gratuities.....or about €97,700 each.......

....and while they can retire after 30 years service, they must also be at least 55 - and they must retire at 60.

Btw, if you think it's such a well remunerated job, considering what you have to put up with, I assume you'll be applying?

Graham

The Muppet wrote: »

I understand you reluctance to accept that as it leaves that side of this debate with nothing .

Because it's factually incorrect, even the weighted comparisons all show a significant gap between public/private sector.

Graham

Graham wrote: »

What's average pay for Gardai after 5/10/20/25years in the job?

You have hit one issue worth digging into:

How about a significant reduction in the retirement/other benefits for the PS in return for keeping the above average wages? That sounds much fairer than trying to have it both ways and would go someway to reducing the costs of the PS.

After 19 years, the salary is 45k & something. That's the highest salary for a Garda. And yes before Mary gets here, there are allowances for working unsociable hours. Depending on what you work obviously.
The new recruits however are on 23k a year, with no raise at the moment for 3 years.
I for one wouldn't mind at all getting more now and less when I retire, I can't speak for the rest though. I'm going to guess the less service someone has, the more willing they would be for this measure. Obviously someone older, nearing retirement wouldn't agree!

Graham

bubblypop wrote: »

I for one wouldn't mind at all getting more now and less when I retire, I can't speak for the rest though.

That's really refreshing to hear, and something I really think should be an option. It's much much more realistic than the "we'd like our cake and eat it" approach from much of the PS.

L

maryishere wrote: »

When they are learning the ropes. And there are no shortage of suitable applicants. Have a look at what they finish with though.

Actually, when they're "learning the ropes", they're paid 184 a week. That 23k is their starting salary as a garda. They also cap out in the low 40s unless they're promoted - in which case as Sergeants or Inspectors they're capping in the 50s.

The Muppet

We will have to agree to differ but if you compare like with like the gap you say exists is just is not there.

Nurses earn 23k starting off in the public sector if your simplistic approach is applied to them it means there are nurses working in the private sector on 13k . Theres averages for you useless unless you compare like with like.

Graham

The Muppet wrote: »

Nurses earn 23k starting off in the public sector if your simplistic approach is applied to them it means there are nurses working in the private sector on 13k . Theres averages for you useless unless you compare like with like.

Your argument is starting to look fairly desperate now, of course someone starting off is earning less than the average.

L

Graham wrote: »

Your argument is starting to look fairly desperate now, of course someone starting off is earning less than the average.

He's not arguing that they're earning less than the average. He's arguing that they're earning much less than the average. It's the same thing bubblypop is saying.

The Muppet

Ha ha cling on to those averages you don't have an argument without them.

Graham

L wrote: »

He's not arguing that they're earning less than the average. He's arguing that they're earning much less than the average. It's the same thing bubblypop is saying.

As is the case for most people starting out in any career.

The Muppet

Ha ha cling on to those averages you don't have an argument without them.

I'm Just demonstrating as simply as I can the flaws in the average wage argument.

We can move on to comparing like with like , that'll be interesting for the likes of the Gardai, prison officers, army etc.

L

Graham wrote: »

As is the case for most people starting out in any career.

Well, yes, but most of the time it's not so low that you can't cover rent or pay for petrol. Private industry factors cost of living into its minimums. Public Service has stopped doing that.

Graham

L wrote: »

Well, yes, but most of the time it's not so low that you can't cover rent or pay for petrol.

I know plenty of people starting out that struggle. It's not uncommon.

L

Graham wrote: »

I know plenty of people starting out that struggle. It's not uncommon.

You also can't claim it's right. Especially when you're talking about people the basic fabric of society depends on to do their job properly and be bribe resistant.

Graham

L wrote: »

You also can't claim it's right. Especially when you're talking about people the basic fabric of society depends on to do their job properly and be bribe resistant.

It's an unfortunate reality of starting adult life for most people however essential you thing they are to the 'basic fabric of society'.

The Muppet

Why does it have to be an unfortunate reality? Why not change it so that all Nurses Gardai Teachers etc are paid a decent wage.

Graham

The Muppet wrote: »

Why does it have to be an unfortuatley relaity? Why not change it so that all Nurses Gardai Teachers etc are paid a decent wage.

Maybe in part because other parts of the PS get more than their reasonable share of the pot.

The Muppet

Graham wrote: »

The Muppet wrote: »

Why does it have to be an unfortuatley relaity? Why not change it so that all Nurses Gardai Teachers etc are paid a decent wage.

Maybe in part because other parts of the PS get more than their reasonable share of the pot.

Perhaps you are right, which is exactly the reason why using the average wage figure for public sector workers is a flawed argument.

Graham

The Muppet wrote: »

Perhaps you are right, which is exactly the reason why using the average wage figure for public sector workers is a flawed argument.

I hate to constantly debunk the myth you're peddling.

I'll leave it to the CSO

The CSO said its calculations allowed for the differences between the sectors and things like workers’ level of education and characteristics of their employers, like the sizes of organisations.
The biggest differences came for those in the bottom one-tenth on the pay scale, where public-sector workers got an extra 11.4%. Female public servants enjoyed a bigger over those in the private sector, on average, than among male workers.

The top one-tenth of earners were paid 9.5% less in the public service than those working for private companies.

The Muppet

Graham wrote: »

The Muppet wrote: »

Perhaps you are right, which is exactly the reason why using the average wage figure for public sector workers is a flawed argument.

I hate to constantly debunk the myth you're peddling.

I'll leave it to the CSO

The CSO said its calculations allowed for the differences between the sectors and things like workers level of education and characteristics of their employers, like the sizes of organisations.
The biggest differences came for those in the bottom one-tenth on the pay scale, where public-sector workers got an extra 11.4%. Female public servants enjoyed a bigger over those in the private sector, on average, than among male workers.

The top one-tenth of earners were paid 9.5% less in the public service than those working for private companies.

Is that the same cso which told us ireland had a growth rate of over 26% last year ?

Figures broadly described as fiction .

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/do-not-be-fooled-by-bizarre-fiction-of-cso-growth-figures-1.2719555

I wouldn't be putting much faith in their calculations .

maryishere

The Muppet wrote: »

Is that the same cso which told us ireland had a growth rate of over 26% last year ?

I wouldn't be putting much faith in their calculations .

You think the cso is another part of the public service which is overpaid for its imcompetence?

Would you favour sacking those public servants and replacing them with workers who would produce work you could have faith in?

Graham

The Muppet wrote: »

I wouldn't be putting much faith in their calculations .

Rhetorical question alert:

So you have nothing to dispute the pay differential figures then?

screamer

Greed, pure and simple. Whilst thousands of people had to emigrate after losing everything in the bad times, the civil servants still had their jobs.
Justified? not a chance, they have permanent pensionable jobs and stability, and continue to have that through good times or bad. That is the trade off, and most such jobs shouldn't pay ridiculous wages.... but wait, it's the government payroll so milk it.....