Why is everyone going on strike?

maryishere

tayto lover wrote: »

Do we have to go through that spiel about averages yet again.

I get 100 K, you get 30 K and Joe gets 20 K.
The average is 50 K but Joe is unhappy and you're not chuffed either.

If you have a few thousand indians and a dozen chiefs, the average is still much closed to the indians that is is to the chiefs;);)

tayto lover

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

it's a benefit and should be included though, just like the pension or any other benefit that people receive as part of a package. There aren't many professional level jobs these days that just provide pay and nothing else...

It's still not pay. Just like my subsistence allowance.

JustTheOne

JustTheOne wrote: »

The average garda wage is 56,000 excluding their pension they don't have to pay into.

The average Garda wage includes wages of commissioner, assistant commissioners, deputy commissioners, chief superintendents etc etc
And they do pay into their pension, as well as paying a pension levy ( extra tax for public servants ) because they pay into that pension

maryishere

tayto lover wrote: »

You said you work in Dundalk

I never said I work in Dundalk. Now stick to the subject. I have the greatest of respect for anyone killed at work, be they a police officer, farmer, fisherman, lorry driver, builder etc.

Harvey Normal

oscarBravo wrote: »

That's an inevitable consequence of the fact that all taxes seem to be measured by a single yardstick: whether it's progressive or regressive. Progressive good; regressive bad. Any move towards making taxes less progressive is pounced upon as "attacking the most vulnerable".

Which is true as far as it goes, but another metric is being ignored: sustainability. Sure, it's superficially good for the most vulnerable to have their direct tax burden reduced: but it's not good for them when the entire economy goes down the crapper because of an unsustainably narrow tax base.

It's also a peculiar form of Irish socialism that opposes usage or wealth taxes, and has traditionally concentrated on stupid metrics for poverty and inequality (the percentage of people below the median rather than how wealth and income is concentrated in the top 1%)

tayto lover

maryishere wrote: »

I never said I work in Dundalk. Now stick to the subject. I have the greatest of respect for anyone killed at work, be they a police officer, farmer, fisherman, lorry driver, builder etc.

No you don't and you made it quite clear with your post. Shameful.

maryishere

maryishere wrote: »

The starting salary in the PSNI is £19,383. Its a lot more dangerous job - they are all recommended to still check under their car (and in the 4 wheel arches) for booby trap bombs each time before they get it to it, whatever the weather, for example. And Gardai here complain?

Is it a lot more dangerous?
Are you sure?
How many PSNI members have been killed in the line of duty in the last 10 years? How many Garda members have?

Geuze

tayto lover wrote: »

It's still not pay and there's obviously a reason for it.

The Garda rent allowance is simply extra pay.

It is labelled "rent allowance", but all Gardai received it, irrespective of where or how they lived.

Harvey Normal

maryishere wrote: »

If you have a few thousand indians and a dozen chiefs, the average is still much closer to the indians that is is to the chiefs;);)

Not necessarily. You heard the joke about the time bill gates - the multi billionaire - drank at the Liverpool unemployed man's club. All other patrons were unemployed, as you might expect. Bill had just wondered in unexpectedly. It was busy. About 100 people.

Upon recognising him the patrons said in chorus.

"Bill gates. Stand us a round. You are a multi billionaire".

To which he replied.

"Buy your own. We are all here, on average, multi millionaires".

They had no comeback. Not knowing about medians.

tayto lover

Geuze wrote: »

The Garda rent allowance is simply extra pay.

It is labelled "rent allowance", but all Gardai received it, irrespective of where or how they lived.

Then why is it not called pay? Ans - It is not pay.

Jawgap

Geuze wrote: »

The Garda rent allowance is simply extra pay.

It is labelled "rent allowance", but all Gardai received it, irrespective of where or how they lived.

New Gardai since about 2012 haven't got rent allowance.

Geuze

maryishere wrote: »

that enough to warrant such a massive premium public sector workers in the Republic are already paid?

You will be happy to hear that thanks to several paycuts, the PS pay premium has been reduced, towards an average of 0%.

There was a PS pay premium of an average of 20%.

But three pay cuts later, that has reduced.

For the lower paygrades, they still get a premium over the private sector.

For the higher grades, there is no premium anymore, or even a negative premium. (e.g. PS accountant earns less than private sector)

Please see here:

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/2010/nes_0910supp.pdf

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/2010/publicprivatepay.pdf

Graham

tayto lover wrote: »

Then why is it not called pay? Ans - It is not pay.

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

Geuze

Jawgap wrote: »

New Gardai since about 2012 haven't got rent allowance.

Yes indeed.

New entrants to the PS have taken more pay cuts than typical PS.

tayto lover

Graham wrote: »

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

And ........it's still not pay.

Jawgap

Geuze wrote: »

Yes indeed.

New entrants to the PS have taken more pay cuts than typical PS.

.....and that's fair?

And if it's not fair then restore the pay - pay people doing the same job, and facing the same risks should get the same money.

Incidentally, withholding Rent Allowance to the Guards saves about €1.8m per year.....sure we'll have the debt paid off in jig time with that.

Graham

Geuze wrote: »

You will be happy to hear that thanks to several paycuts, the PS pay premium has been reduced, towards an average of 0%.

There was a PS pay premium of an average of 20%.

But three pay cuts later, that has reduced.

For the lower paygrades, they still get a premium over the private sector.

For the higher grades, there is no premium anymore, or even a negative premium. (e.g. PS accountant earns less than private sector)

IF that's accurate, it's starting to approach reasonable.

Not because I think the PS are worth less than their private sector counterparts but because the PS have benefits that are just not available to the vast majority of the private sector.

maryishere

bubblypop wrote: »

Is it a lot more dangerous?
Are you sure?
How many PSNI members have been killed in the line of duty in the last 10 years? How many Garda members have?

16 PSNI officers have died in the line of duty since force was formed, between 2001 up until 2014.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/16-psni-officers-have-died-in-the-line-of-duty-since-force-was-formed-30622956.html
In the same period, in the much large force of An Gardai, there were 6 deaths in the line of duty.
I am not sure of the death statistics for farmers, roofers, fishermen, lorry drivers etc. All workers deserve respect.
If average Garda pay is 56,000 before allowances ( over 60k after allowances), why is that, given the starting salary in the PSNI is only £19,383 ? And the Gardai still looking for more?

noodler

Godge wrote: »

Historically, there is no other period than that since 2008 where wages went down. As an example, here is the table from 1998 to 2006:

http://www.cso.ie/quicktables/GetQuickTables.aspx?FileName=QIJA.asp&TableName=Industrial+Earnings&StatisticalProduct=DB_QI

What a period to choose! The Celtic tiger years and subsequent property bubble!!

maryishere

Graham wrote: »

the PS have benefits that are just not available to the vast majority of the private sector.

+1, plus job security has a lot to be said for too, as the hundreds of thousands of private sector workers who lost their jobs - or had 60% pay cuts in the past 10 years, can testify.

There are other perks in the public sector too - for example "sickies". Sick leave in public service is twice the rate of private sector
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/sick-leave-in-public-service-is-twice-the-rate-of-private-sector-26575680.html

Green Peter

The Garda are right to strike, they have been fobbed off on pay talks, under resourced, discriminated against as workers, is anyone really surprised we are where we are, they need to look after themselves because no one else will. They are past worrying what the government or public think!

Jawgap

Graham wrote: »

IF that's accurate, it's starting to approach reasonable.

Not because I think the PS are worth less than their private sector counterparts but because the PS have benefits that are just not available to the vast majority of the private sector.

Again, relying solely on my own experience, the following is a list of benefits I get now that I would never have gotten (or expected to have gotten) in the PS...

• Car
• Health insurance for self and subsidised PHI for family
• Individual and team bonus scheme
• Bike (as a recruitment inducement)
• Professional fees paid
• Paid time off for professional development /CPD
• Paid for Christmas party (with accommodation) plus other social events
• Fitting out of home office

The only thing I 'lost' was a few days discretionary holidays, and my tax bill went up thanks to BIK.

tayto lover

Green Peter wrote: »

The Garda are right to strike, they have been fobbed off on pay talks, under resourced, discriminated against as workers, is anyone really surprised we are where we are, they need to look after themselves because no one else will. They are past worrying what the government or public think!

The garda, teachers and the nurses no longer care about public opinion either. Public opinion does not put bread on their tables.
There are loads of Marys out there who couldn't give a toss about them so why should they care.
They are completely right to stand up for themselves as were the bus drivers.
I was on three strikes in my working life and it's only when you stand up and fight that people take notice of you.

Jawgap

maryishere wrote: »

+1, plus job security has a lot to be said for too, as the hundreds of thousands of private sector workers who lost their jobs - or had 60% pay cuts in the past 10 years, can testify.

There are other perks in the public sector too - for example "sickies". Sick leave in public service is twice the rate of private sector
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/sick-leave-in-public-service-is-twice-the-rate-of-private-sector-26575680.html

Another myth that needs to be nailed on the head.

Not everyone in the PS is permanent and/or pensionable. The place I worked in finished all contract and temporary staff regardless of their role, in early 2009. The net headcount reduction was about 25%. This was followed by coerced early retirements, and forcing people on career breaks (offered in 2008 to reduce numbers) to return early or resign.

Our attendance policy included return to work interviews following absences with a compulsory OT session with a doctor if you showed a 'pattern' of absence or were off for more than 4 weeks.

Paid sick leave was also halved.

maryishere

maryishere wrote: »

16 PSNI officers have died in the line of duty since force was formed, between 2001 up until 2014.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/16-psni-officers-have-died-in-the-line-of-duty-since-force-was-formed-30622956.html
In the same period, in the much large force of An Gardai, there were 6 deaths in the line of duty.
I am not sure of the death statistics for farmers, roofers, fishermen, lorry drivers etc. All workers deserve respect.
If average Garda pay is 56,000 before allowances ( over 60k after allowances), why is that, given the starting salary in the PSNI is only £19,383 ? And the Gardai still looking for more?

There were 7 PSNI members killed in the last ten years.
There were 6 gardai killed in the line of duty in the last ten years.
So your assertion that the PSNI is a more dangerous job doesn't really stand up.
Also 19,383 sterling works out at 21,717 euro , gardai earn 23k if you take into consideration the cost of living in the north, I believe that the PSNI are actually better paid.

You brought up the argument that the PSNI is more dangerous, I would never personally compare deaths, but I'm just making a point.
You can go on and on about averages but that isn't reflective of a garda's pay.
The commissioner earns over 170,000 euro. Kinda brings up the average, don't you think?

tayto lover

maryishere wrote: »

16 PSNI officers have died in the line of duty since force was formed, between 2001 up until 2014.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/16-psni-officers-have-died-in-the-line-of-duty-since-force-was-formed-30622956.html
In the same period, in the much large force of An Gardai, there were 6 deaths in the line of duty.
I am not sure of the death statistics for farmers, roofers, fishermen, lorry drivers etc. All workers deserve respect.
If average Garda pay is 56,000 before allowances ( over 60k after allowances), why is that, given the starting salary in the PSNI is only £19,383 ? And the Gardai still looking for more?

Were you not satisfied with the count?

Graham

Jawgap wrote: »

Again, relying solely on my own experience, the following is a list of benefits I get now that I would never have gotten (or expected to have gotten) in the PS...

Sounds like you made the right choice.

Bass Reeves

The Muppet wrote: »

Thanks Graham, I'm suprised you cant see the relevance of a €6 billion loss to the exchequer through under the counter payments and the discussion. Its hardly an insignificant amount.

Let me guess we should discount that too yeah?

the 6 billion loss is like the 13 billion from apple it is ideal for making pie in the sky. The same article you quoted stated that Ireland has the lowest black economy in Europe. A black economy is exactly that a black economy. From the report it is obivious that we have it reduced more than most other EU countries.

So who pay for the black economy. The publican that hires a lad do a spot of painting, unlikly as it is tax deductible expense. The Doctor that pays a mechanic to repair his car unlikely as it is a tax deductible expense. Again unlikly. Most of the black economy is trades people doing jobs for PAYE workers who ask for a discount for cash, your average factory worker, IT worker or dare I say Guard or teacher.

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Union demands?

I haven't seen much in demands from the unions since 2008.

It is a simple fact that the state, since 2008, has asked public sector workers to pay more in deductions than any other worker, as they were asked to take higher cuts. This is beyond dispute as separate levies were installed on public sector workers, simply for being public sector workers and no other reason.

Now the "emergency" caused by the 2008 financial crash is going on longer than the emergency declared in September 1939 for WW2.

In the private sector lots of workers to much higher rates of pay cuts....they lost there jobs. The first pay cuts were imposed in the 2010 budget we lived in a cloud for the first two years. The main reason why we had to have pay cuts was if we did not no one would lend us money.

tayto lover wrote: »

You said you work in Dundalk and 2 garda were murdered there in the last few years. Shame on you for making little of them.

I think about 200 farmers have been killed on Irish farms overs last ten years.

tayto lover wrote: »

And ........it's still not pay.

It could be described as an under the counter cash payment maybe. I wonder will revenue investigate the employers and employee's. If Apple or Google tried to pull that one...... would revenue investigate

Jawgap

maryishere wrote: »

16 PSNI officers have died in the line of duty since force was formed, between 2001 up until 2014.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/16-psni-officers-have-died-in-the-line-of-duty-since-force-was-formed-30622956.html
In the same period, in the much large force of An Gardai, there were 6 deaths in the line of duty.
I am not sure of the death statistics for farmers, roofers, fishermen, lorry drivers etc. All workers deserve respect.
If average Garda pay is 56,000 before allowances ( over 60k after allowances), why is that, given the starting salary in the PSNI is only £19,383 ? And the Gardai still looking for more?

There's a difference between workplace deaths and deaths in the line of duty. They're both tragic, but we don't make farmers, roofers, fishermen, lorry drivers etc swear an oath to uphold OUR constitutional and human rights at the potential expense of their personal safety.

In short, a fishermen can look at the sea, decide it's too dangerous and remain in port - we expect Guards to move towards danger and get between it and us, they don't have the option of deciding to stay parked up, in port or at the foot of the ladder.

maryishere

bubblypop wrote: »

There were 7 PSNI members killed in the last ten years.
There were 6 gardai killed in the line of duty in the last ten years.
So your assertion that the PSNI is a more dangerous job doesn't really stand up.

Given that there are far more Gardai in the 26 counties than there are PSNI in the 6 counties, yes it is more dangerous. They (the PSNI ) still are advised to check under their cars before getting in to them each time for example. And you still justify the Gardai here on their average pay of 60k a year, while the PSNI start on a third of that? And the Gardai are the ones going on strike?

tayto lover

Graham wrote: »

Sounds like you made the right choice.

As did many nurses, garda, teachers etc etc according to the papers and the union reps.
Poor pay in the PS leads to poor services and we all suffer as a result.
All those nurses who left for better pay and conditions were right. They will not come back and work for peanuts either.

Jawgap

Graham wrote: »

Sounds like you made the right choice.

Financially? Definitely.....my only 'regret' was not bailing sooner.

From a job satisfaction perspective? My preference would lie towards being the gamekeeper instead of the poacher, even if poaching pays better!

tayto lover

maryishere wrote: »

Given that there are far more Gardai in the 26 counties than there are PSNI in the 6 counties, yes it is more dangerous. They (the PSNI ) still are advised to check under their cars before getting in to them each time for example. And you still justify the Gardai here on their average pay of 60k a year, while the PSNI start on a third of that? And the Gardai are the ones going on strike?

Don't feed the troll lads.

Banned.

maryishere

No need for you to get personal, or accuse me of being a troll.

Jawgap

maryishere wrote: »

Given that there are far more Gardai in the 26 counties than there are PSNI in the 6 counties, yes it is more dangerous. They (the PSNI ) still are advised to check under their cars before getting in to them each time for example. And you still justify the Gardai here on their average pay of 60k a year, while the PSNI start on a third of that? And the Gardai are the ones going on strike?

is there a source for that?

Because top of the Garda scale is about €45k, plus about another 30% in allowances - but it takes 19 years to get there.

maryishere

maryishere wrote: »

Given that there are far more Gardai in the 26 counties than there are PSNI in the 6 counties, yes it is more dangerous. They (the PSNI ) still are advised to check under their cars before getting in to them each time for example. And you still justify the Gardai here on their average pay of 60k a year, while the PSNI start on a third of that? And the Gardai are the ones going on strike?

Well, if you really want to get into it, four of those PSNI members were killed in a car accident when traveling in the same car, so let's say 3 PSNI members.

I don't think you can compare an AVERAGE Garda salary with a STARTING PSNI salary. Let's compare like with like & stop with the tabloid headlines maybe?

maryishere

Jawgap wrote: »

is there a source for that?

Because top of the Garda scale is about €45k, plus about another 30% in allowances - but it takes 19 years to get there.

It was here on this thread, go back and look.

Jawgap

Jawgap wrote: »

is there a source for that?

Because top of the Garda scale is about €45k, plus about another 30% in allowances - but it takes 19 years to get there.

Mary likes to take the average Garda pay, including commissioner, assistant commissioners, deputy commissioners etc
You know, management earning over 100,000 a year and gardai earning 23k for 3 years

Jawgap

maryishere wrote: »

It was here on this thread, go back and look.

Well I just tried search for '60' on the thread and nothing pinged, so perhaps you could do me a favour and re-post the source for your assertion that the average Garda salary is €60k pa?

Green Peter

maryishere wrote:

16 PSNI officers have died in the line of duty since force was formed, between 2001 up until 2014.

maryishere wrote:

In the same period, in the much large force of An Gardai, there were 6 deaths in the line of duty. I am not sure of the death statistics for farmers, roofers, fishermen, lorry drivers etc. All workers deserve respect. If average Garda pay is 56,000 before allowances ( over 60k after allowances), why is that, given the starting salary in the PSNI is only £19,383 ? And the Gardai still looking for more?

Good girl Mary that's benchmarking if I ever saw it!

seanin4711

Government in flux, opportunistic

Idbatterim

The way to fix that is to reduce vat rate in the south so. Two wrongs do not make a right. And the cost of living is not THAT much higher in the north to warrant such a disparity in p.s. wages north and south.

vat rate here at 23% is high, but think about it for a minute, what is sexier, cutting usc or increasing welfare or cutting vat?

nothing matters but optics...

maryishere

bubblypop wrote: »

Well, if you really want to get into it, four of those PSNI members were killed in a car accident when traveling in the same car, so let's say 3 PSNI members.

Actually 14 PSNI were killed in the line of duty between 2001 and 2014. The 4 killed were not in a car - it was in an armoured mitsubishi jeep type vehicle in the line of work. http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/16-psni-officers-have-died-in-the-line-of-duty-since-force-was-formed-30622956.html

But its not just police north and south of the border. Why should a public sector vet south of the border be paid nearly double that of a norther public sector vet, when they are both the same age and went to uni together, and do the same type of work?

If Gardai and nurses and teachers get a further increase, so will everyone else be seeking the same.

Donal55

JustTheOne wrote: »

Increase in wages=increase in expense for people using the services.

Thanks SF, AAA, PBP.

I think you'll find its FG/FF that have the hands on the tiller in Govt.

maryishere

bubblypop wrote: »

Mary likes to take the average Garda pay, including commissioner, assistant commissioners, deputy commissioners etc
You know, management earning over 100,000 a year and gardai earning 23k for 3 years

If there are thousands and thousands of indians and a dozen chiefs, and you average all their pay out, you will be much nearer the indians than the chiefs.;)

Jawgap

maryishere wrote: »

......
If average Garda pay is 56,000 before allowances ( over 60k after allowances), why is that, given the starting salary in the PSNI is only £19,383 ? And the Gardai still looking for more?

again, have you a source for this?

Because the figures I'm looking at (from the Dept of Justice) suggest average Garda salaries across the entire force are a smidge over €43,000, with allowances payable on top of that.

Green Peter

maryishere wrote:

But its not just police north and south of the border. Why should a public sector vet south of the border be paid nearly double that of a norther public sector vet, when they are both the same age and went to uni together, and do the same type of work?

maryishere wrote:

If Gardai and nurses and teachers get a further increase, so will everyone else be seeking the same.

maryishere wrote:

But its not just police north and south of the border. Why should a public sector vet south of the border be paid nearly double that of a norther public sector vet, when they are both the same age and went to uni together, and do the same type of work?

maryishere wrote:

If Gardai and nurses and teachers get a further increase, so will everyone else be seeking the same.

Maybe you'd tell us what you work at yourself, I might have an opinion on whether your worth what your paid?

maryishere

maryishere wrote: »

If there are thousands and thousands of indians and a dozen chiefs, and you average all their pay out, you will be much nearer the indians than the chiefs.;)

Ah Mary
You know how averages work
Being nearer the Indians doesn't actually reflect what the Indians get paid!
Ridiculous

Graham

Green Peter wrote: »

Maybe you'd tell us what you work at yourself, I might have an opinion on whether your worth what your paid?

That's generally something that's driven by market forces/competition, outside factors that don't often apply in the PS.

maryishere

Jawgap wrote: »

again, have you a source for this?

Because the figures I'm looking at (from the Dept of Justice) suggest average Garda salaries across the entire force are a smidge over €43,000, with allowances payable on top of that.

Last night I gave you the link showing that years retiring Gardai got a 107,000 tax free windfall each plus a pension of 33,000 a year.
The tax free windfall is 18 months salary and pension is 50% of salary. Do not forget also they can retire after only 30 years.
http://www.herald.ie/news/retiring-gardai-will-get-average-payoff-of-107k-28000137.html

JustTheOne wrote: »

The average garda wage is 56,000 excluding their pension they don't have to pay into.

Add allowances on to that and what do you get?