Why is everyone going on strike?

Jawgap

maryishere wrote: »

.....
If average Garda pay is 56,000 before allowances ( over 60k after allowances), why is that, given the starting salary in the PSNI is only £19,383 ? And the Gardai still looking for more?

Btw, you're misrepresenting the figures.

At Point '0' on the PSNI pay scale - "On commencing service as a PSNI trainee" a person is paid £19,383 pa. All trainees enter at point 0 and remain on point 0 until attestation/graduation.

Garda Trainees will receive an allowance of €184 per week for the 32 weeks leading to attestation - the equivalent of €9568 pa.

At attestation, the probationary PSNI constable earns £22,668 pa, the probationary Guard gets €23,750 pa.

maryishere

If there are thousands and thousands of indians and a dozen chiefs, and you average all their pay out, you will be much nearer the indians than the chiefs

bubblypop wrote: »

Ah Mary
You know how averages work
Being nearer the Indians doesn't actually reflect what the Indians get paid!

Ah bubblepop, it will be near enough. And go not forget the public and government are concerned at the total cost of the public service, which includes all grades.

Jawgap

maryishere wrote: »

Last night I gave you the link showing that years retiring Gardai got a 107,000 tax free windfall each plus a pension of 33,000 a year.
The tax free windfall is 18 months salary and pension is 50% of salary. Do not forget also they can retire after only 30 years.
http://www.herald.ie/news/retiring-gardai-will-get-average-payoff-of-107k-28000137.html



Add allowances on to that and what do you get?

So no figures on salary, except those divined from a four year old story reporting on what long serving retiring Guards are getting? They're hardly average now are they?

By definition, with their long service they're at the top of the scale and are the outliers when it comes to calculating AVERAGE salaries.

Green Peter

Graham wrote:

That's generally something that's driven by market forces/competition, outside factors that don't often apply in the PS.

Thank you and that can often be favourable, I see Mary's happy to bash other professions but still hide behind her keyboard

juneg

Industrial unrest because younger colleagues entering our professions are paid very poorly and thats not fair.

Jawgap

maryishere wrote: »

.....



Add allowances on to that and what do you get?

According to the DoJ's own figures, unsocial hours payments for duties carried out at weekends, public holidays and at night accounted for about 60% of the total allowances bill.......so it's not like the money isn't being earned, the hard way.

Bass Reeves

bubblypop wrote: »

Mary likes to take the average Garda pay, including commissioner, assistant commissioners, deputy commissioners etc
You know, management earning over 100,000 a year and gardai earning 23k for 3 years

this is the same as in most public or private organisations. Below is an organization structure for the Garda.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garda_S%C3%ADoch%C3%A1na

If you include sergeants as ordinary Garda it gives 457 as the number of higher pad officers out of a total force of 13K which is a 1 to 28 so would not distort the ratio to a huge extent. It should also be noted that when looking at retirements guards retiring at present can take the best three year average of the last 10 years service I do not think they have to be consecutive. I am not sure of the promotion ratio in the Garda but as one progresses up the ladder your retirement age increases but it is likly that lots of garda retire with the sergeant rank.

Jawgap

Bass Reeves wrote: »

this is the same as in most public or private organisations. Below is an organization structure for the Garda.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garda_S%C3%ADoch%C3%A1na

If you include sergeants as ordinary Garda it gives 457 as the number of higher pad officers out of a total force of 13K which is a 1 to 28 so would not distort the ratio to a huge extent. It should also be noted that when looking at retirements guards retiring at present can take the best three year average of the last 10 years service I do not think they have to be consecutive. I am not sure of the promotion ratio in the Garda but as one progresses up the ladder your retirement age increases but it is likly that lots of garda retire with the sergeant rank.

238 Guards retired in 2015 - 131 were Gardai, 78 were Sergeants, 13 were Cigs, 11 were Supers, 4 Chief Supers and 1 A/Commissioner.

Bass Reeves

Jawgap wrote: »

238 Guards retired in 2015 - 131 were Gardai, 78 were Sergeants, 13 were Cigs, 11 were Supers, 4 Chief Supers and 1 A/Commissioner.

Not far off 50/50 cash back.

Graham

Jawgap wrote: »

According to the DoJ's own figures, unsocial hours payments for duties carried out at weekends, public holidays and at night accounted for about 60% of the total allowances bill.......so it's not like the money isn't being earned, the hard way.

I don't think anyone suggested unsocial hours payments were undeserved.

Of course they're appropriate and I've no doubt hard earned. That doesn't mean they should be ignored when discussing earnings.

Cookie_Monster

tayto lover wrote: »

And ........it's still not pay.

what point are you trying to make here? So what if it's not pay, it still form part of total remuneration (which is the metric that should be used anyway)

Bass Reeves

Bass Reeves wrote: »

this is the same as in most public or private organisations. Below is an organization structure for the Garda.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garda_S%C3%ADoch%C3%A1na

If you include sergeants as ordinary Garda it gives 457 as the number of higher pad officers out of a total force of 13K which is a 1 to 28 so would not distort the ratio to a huge extent. It should also be noted that when looking at retirements guards retiring at present can take the best three year average of the last 10 years service I do not think they have to be consecutive. I am not sure of the promotion ratio in the Garda but as one progresses up the ladder your retirement age increases but it is likly that lots of garda retire with the sergeant rank.

Why would you include sergeants as ordinary gardai?
Promotion doesn't increase the retirement age.
Lots of gardai retire as gardai.
Sergeants retire as sergeants.
Cigs retire as cigs
Assistant commissioners retire as assistant commissioners.

Bass Reeves

bubblypop wrote: »

Why would you include sergeants as ordinary gardai?
Promotion doesn't increase the retirement age.
Lots of gardai retire as gardai.
Sergeants retire as sergeants.
Cigs retire as cigs
Assistant commissioners retire as assistant commissioners.

A sergeant is a first line manager equivlent to a foreman on a site or a team leader in many orginisations. He would be considered as an ordinary garda not a management officer.

It would seem from the statistics that jawgap put up that 45% of gardai employess retire above the rank of ordinary garda. They all start as ordinary recruits that is a good career ladder.

Geuze

Jawgap wrote: »

.....and that's fair?

And if it's not fair then restore the pay - pay people doing the same job, and facing the same risks should get the same money.

I don't think it's fair at all.

K-9

tayto lover wrote: »

Don't feed the troll lads.

Mod:

tayto lover and maryishere, do not post on this thread again.

K-9

bubblypop wrote: »

Mary likes to take the average Garda pay, including commissioner, assistant commissioners, deputy commissioners etc
You know, management earning over 100,000 a year and gardai earning 23k for 3 years

Well there's 1 Commissioner and a few Assistants in a force of 11 or 12,000, it isn't going to skew the average that much unless it is very top brass heavy.

K-9

Green Peter wrote: »

Thank you and that can often be favourable, I see Mary's happy to bash other professions but still hide behind her keyboard

Mod:

Boards is an anonymous website, no poster is under an obligation to post personal details. If they do so, fine but they are under no pressure to do so

Jawgap

Graham wrote: »

I don't think anyone suggested unsocial hours payments were undeserved.

Of course they're appropriate and I've no doubt hard earned. That doesn't mean they should be ignored when discussing earnings.

No, but I think certain people were operating under the impression that the allowance element of Garda remuneration was distributed like confetti regardless of the Guard's position / role or roster.

I was just pointing out that, according to the figures, most of the allowance budget, goes on unsocial hours payments - giving Guards a bit extra for working while most of the rest of us are sleeping.

Jawgap

Bass Reeves wrote: »

A sergeant is a first line manager equivlent to a foreman on a site or a team leader in many orginisations. He would be considered as an ordinary garda not a management officer.

It would seem from the statistics that jawgap put up that 45% of gardai employess retire above the rank of ordinary garda. They all start as ordinary recruits that is a good career ladder.

....but worth noting that progression isn't automatic - if you don't pass your Sergeant's exams you stay a Guard, likewise if you don't pass the Inspector's exams you stay a sergeant. The pass rate for the sergeant's exams is about 30% and for the inspector's about 10%.

Also, not everyone makes it to retirement - I'd say the fact that 'only' 45% of the cohort who retired in 2015 were Guards is indicative of the level of attrition at that level - for example of the 550 recruits who were taken on in 2014 and 2015, 5 left before the end of training.

Just to note, as well, that 2015 was a 'good' year for retirements - in 2009 the number of retirements was 722, in 2010 it was 362, and in 2011 it was 436.

Jawgap

K-9 wrote: »

Well there's 1 Commissioner and a few Assistants in a force of 11 or 12,000, it isn't going to skew the average that much unless it is very top brass heavy.

Or unless the average salary is calculated in an unweighted fashion by simply picking the mid-point on the entirety of the Garda payscale from trainee to Commissioner.

the simplest thing, which is what I did, was to take the pay budget from the Annual Report and divide it by the nominal strength of AGS - if gives a slightly lower figure than the true figure because there's people on the strength who are not earning because they're on unpaid leave of some description.

ChikiChiki

Nurses will be next to strike. Few soundbites in the press today. I think we really need to look at the cost of living which is rising at a crazy rate.

PMBC

The Muppet wrote: »

newwan wrote: »

She's a first year so
That's 2k more than what I started on way back in celtic boom times as an engineer and that's before her overtime is added etc which I never got and I survived as I commuted...

And lastly your point is bordering on irrelevant as it's a case study of 1 looking at the extreme...

Its not 'my 40k'. Those numbers are freely available freedom of info act numbers. They are the inmo and government of Ireland numbers

Oh and lastly... Are you actually serious re 1500 average rent in Dublin? That's the avg rent for a 3 bed house in dub. You think a first year nurse should be able to afford to rent a 3 bed house apartment by herself in our capital?

Yes she is working here for 1 year now.

With respect I have a son who's and engineer and I would not compare the work an engineer does with that of a mental health nurse or any nurse , school teacher or garda for that matter.

My point is no more irrelevant than the average figures you used in your op.

And yes I am actually serious that she should be able to put some money by to save for a deposit so she can get her own place.

That's an interesting post re nurses and others relative to engineers. I'm not quite sure who you rate higher in the food chain. Quite a few years ago myself and a teacher friend visited Russia and my friend was delighted that the Russians rated teachers higher than engineers. Engineers in Ireland in the construction end of the private sector are undervalued and this is moreso in the UK. Aided and abetted I might add by their professional representative body, Engineers Ireland. Young people are voting with their feet and going into jobs where the money is - finance and business

Bass Reeves

Jawgap wrote: »

....but worth noting that progression isn't automatic - if you don't pass your Sergeant's exams you stay a Guard, likewise if you don't pass the Inspector's exams you stay a sergeant. The pass rate for the sergeant's exams is about 30% and for the inspector's about 10%.

Also, not everyone makes it to retirement - I'd say the fact that 'only' 45% of the cohort who retired in 2015 were Guards is indicative of the level of attrition at that level - for example of the 550 recruits who were taken on in 2014 and 2015, 5 left before the end of training.

Just to note, as well, that 2015 was a 'good' year for retirements - in 2009 the number of retirements was 722, in 2010 it was 362, and in 2011 it was 436.

No progression is not automatic never was and is in few jobs. However AFAIK you get more than oner chance at the exam and can try again a few years later. I imagine that the exam is used as a weeding out procedure as the number applying would be high realtive to the number of posts available in a 2/3 year period or however long the panel lasts. Senior guards do not want to tie up there own time interviewing hundreds.

This is realtive to a story I heard about a state body that was looking for an independent interviewer for an interview panel. They approached a number of individuals in banks etc. Most were agast that the number being interviewed re the number of positions and could not commit the time which was in weeks rather than days.

Again while promotion is not autromatic I imagine that in larger cities promotion prospects are very good with a high percentage getting promoted to Sergeant and above before retirement. On the other hand a guard that spends his career in Clonakilty, Cahirciveen or Achill Island would have limited prospect and that is fair too.

Graham

Jawgap wrote: »

No, but I think certain people were operating under the impression that the allowance element of Garda remuneration was distributed like confetti regardless of the Guard's position / role or roster.

What's the "Guard's position / role or roster" criteria for the €4,000 rent allowance?

Jawgap

Graham wrote: »

What's the "Guard's position / role or roster" criteria for the €4,000 rent allowance?

Simple.....if you were employed pre2011 you get it, if you're working beside someone who started pre-2011 but you started afterwards you don't get it.

.....and that saves the country less than €2m per year.

Rent allowance falls into the smaller proportion of allowances that are, effectively, unearned but awarded.

It's also subject to the pension levy, and PRSI and - I think - tax. After those deductions there's probably about enough left to rent an apartment in Dublin for a month.

The allowance reflects the fact that a Garda can be moved at very short notice to serve anywhere in the State.

Graham

Jawgap wrote: »

Simple.....if you were employed pre2011 you get it, if you're working beside someone who started pre-2011 but you started afterwards you don't get it.

.....and that saves the country less than €2m per year.

Rent allowance falls into the smaller proportion of allowances that are, effectively, unearned but awarded.

So that reasonably significant allowance actually is distributed regardless of the Guard's position / role or roster.

Jawgap

Graham wrote: »

So that reasonably significant allowance actually is distributed regardless of the Guard's position / role or roster.

Yes, as are other allowances. Indeed, looking at the list of allowances available to Guards it's not even close to being the most generous one!

DPER had the chance to get rid of it but decided to keep it. They had the chance to do away with it by incorporating it into pay but they, again, decided to keep it in its present form......just not pay it to newly recruited Guards.

Lot of fixation on what is, after all, a fairly modest allowance - good to see some things never change in Ireland!

Bass Reeves

Jawgap wrote: »

Simple.....if you were employed pre2011 you get it, if you're working beside someone who started pre-2011 but you started afterwards you don't get it.

.....and that saves the country less than €2m per year.

Rent allowance falls into the smaller proportion of allowances that are, effectively, unearned but awarded.

It's also subject to the pension levy, and PRSI and - I think - tax. After those deductions there's probably about enough left to rent an apartment in Dublin for a month.

The allowance reflects the fact that a Garda can be moved at very short notice to serve anywhere in the State.

However the Government had conceeded to award it to all Gardai again in an agreement reached a few weeks ago. When Rent allowance was orginally awarded (and the GRA highlighted this) it was awarded as a pay increase to circumvent pay awards to other bodies linked to gardai in the sixties.

Gardai are no longer moved around AFAIK this is now impossible due to employment legislation. If a Garda is now assigned a headquarters and he is happy there he cannot be moved. A court case against the banks back in the 90's where a bank offical was moved a middling distance (I think it was about 60 miles) from there orginal job was considered constructive dismissal. While staff can still be moved around the effect on them and there families has to be considered and if the distance is considered onerous on the individual then they have to be compensated. I think most movements of this kind in the Gardai are voluntary either on accepting promotion or if requested. Tempory movements are possible buy attact an overnight subsistance allowance.

Jawgap

Bass Reeves wrote: »

However the Government had conceeded to award it to all Gardai again in an agreement reached a few weeks ago. When Rent allowance was orginally awarded (and the GRA highlighted this) it was awarded as a pay increase to circumvent pay awards to other bodies linked to gardai in the sixties.

Gardai are no longer moved around AFAIK this is now impossible due to employment legislation. If a Garda is now assigned a headquarters and he is happy there he cannot be moved. A court case against the banks back in the 90's where a bank offical was moved a middling distance (I think it was about 60 miles) from there orginal job was considered constructive dismissal. While staff can still be moved around the effect on them and there families has to be considered and if the distance is considered onerous on the individual then they have to be compensated. I think most movements of this kind in the Gardai are voluntary either on accepting promotion or if requested. Tempory movements are possible buy attact an overnight subsistance allowance.

Gardai are moved all the time. If you get promoted for example you must move division.

Trainee gardaí out of pocket after sudden transfer to Dundalk

Bass Reeves

Jawgap wrote: »

Gardai are moved all the time. If you get promoted for example you must move division.

Trainee gardaí out of pocket after sudden transfer to Dundalk

In any job where you start as a trainee you will be out of pocket a lot of the time. Trainees are often expected to move at short notice and will always be the lowest paid staff in any company. If the GRA had accepted the deal it would have seen trainee get paid the rent allowance. This is par for the course. You have to question why the GRA refused the agreement offered by the government. I think it relates to there was only the Landsdowne Road agreement in it for other garda.

Older Garda want to piggy back on a deal that will see them get an increase in wages. The reality is that with the Garda recruitment embargo only trainees taken on over last couple of years are effected by the lower pay. They were scarficed by there older collegues to try to preserve there own pay during the financial crisis of 2010 to present.

The really sad thing is again they are being used and abused by there own colleagues again to try to get a pay increase for them It is the same with teachers. You have to admire the nurses unions who fought for traineee nurses and graduates nurses as a case by themselves and got some of there pay restore.

Take trainee nurses they are expected to do 9 months placements and will be moved around hospitals in there area for the minimum wage which is about 18K/year. They have to take it on the chin. I wonder if the GRA made a case for trainee and newly qualified garda would it be easier to get accross the line. The same with ASTI teachers. But you see there would be nothing for the rest of the great unwashed.

In reality it is a money grab by a sectoral interest. You have to question union reality in Ireland. It has virtually completely removed itself from the private sector in Ireland. It represents a sheltered sector in the country. Unlike Germany where most employments are unionized in Ireland only there dependent or semi-dependent on the state are unionized to that extent. They tend to see the state and it coffers as a nipple to be sucked dry without any regard to the effect on wider society. This disregard for wider society got us the financial crisis that we are just starting to exit. We are again heading for boom bust politicial senario's

Jawgap

Bass Reeves wrote: »

In any job where you start as a trainee you will be out of pocket a lot of the time. Trainees are often expected to move at short notice and will always be the lowest paid staff in any company. If the GRA had accepted the deal it would have seen trainee get paid the rent allowance. This is par for the course. You have to question why the GRA refused the agreement offered by the government. I think it relates to there was only the Landsdowne Road agreement in it for other garda.

Older Garda want to piggy back on a deal that will see them get an increase in wages. The reality is that with the Garda recruitment embargo only trainees taken on over last couple of years are effected by the lower pay. They were scarficed by there older collegues to try to preserve there own pay during the financial crisis of 2010 to present.

The really sad thing is again they are being used and abused by there own colleagues again to try to get a pay increase for them It is the same with teachers. You have to admire the nurses unions who fought for traineee nurses and graduates nurses as a case by themselves and got some of there pay restore.

Take trainee nurses they are expected to do 9 months placements and will be moved around hospitals in there area for the minimum wage which is about 18K/year. They have to take it on the chin. I wonder if the GRA made a case for trainee and newly qualified garda would it be easier to get accross the line. The same with ASTI teachers. But you see there would be nothing for the rest of the great unwashed.

In reality it is a money grab by a sectoral interest. You have to question union reality in Ireland. It has virtually completely removed itself from the private sector in Ireland. It represents a sheltered sector in the country. Unlike Germany where most employments are unionized in Ireland only there dependent or semi-dependent on the state are unionized to that extent. They tend to see the state and it coffers as a nipple to be sucked dry without any regard to the effect on wider society. This disregard for wider society got us the financial crisis that we are just starting to exit. We are again heading for boom bust politicial senario's

Not really, if you were moved suddenly by an employer and forced to re-domicile you'd have a great case for constructive dismissal. And it's one thing being shunted around when you expect to be shunted around and can plan accordingly, quite another when you can be deployed at short notice for indeterminate periods.

Maybe you'd explain further how the older Guards sacrificed the younger ones given none of the representative bodies were involved in negotiating the arrangements that were enforced on them by DPER?

....and money grabs by sectoral interests don't happen in the private sector?? Really? Barristers or other professions resisting reforms and competition aren't involved in securing their own interests? Quantitative and qualitative barriers to people entering certain industries and jobs so beloved of the incumbents aren't private sector interests looking after themselves? (Standards they expect public servants to enforce and regulate against as their proxies).

Bass Reeves

Jawgap wrote: »

Not really, if you were moved suddenly by an employer and forced to re-domicile you'd have a great case for constructive dismissal. And it's one thing being shunted around when you expect to be shunted around and can plan accordingly, quite another when you can be deployed at short notice for indeterminate periods.

Maybe you'd explain further how the older Guards sacrificed the younger ones given none of the representative bodies were involved in negotiating the arrangements that were enforced on them by DPER?

....and money grabs by sectoral interests don't happen in the private sector?? Really? Barristers or other professions resisting reforms and competition aren't involved in securing their own interests? Quantitative and qualitative barriers to people entering certain industries and jobs so beloved of the incumbents aren't private sector interests looking after themselves? (Standards they expect public servants to enforce and regulate against as their proxies).

It is relative to whether this is an individual situtuation . If a company moves it offices or it workplace from Cork to Dublin, then in this case it gives it staff the option of moving location. If staff are unable to move location for family reasons then these staff are entitled to voluntar redundancy There may be a fight over it but in general it would be paid as it would be seen as onerous on staff to move. However in case of senior managment it may well pay them to see out there contract. In the case I said about the Bank official it changed the view of staff movment by large organisations and while some may issue contracts expecting you to move at a whip it has to be reasonable. Gardai moving for promoyion is voluntary it is individual choice. You will not get promotion in the bank or most private organisation that have multiple office unless you are willing to move. This prevents favouritism and vindictism to previous colleagues.

Gardai if I remember right were part of the orginial Croke Park agreement while they were against the Landsdowne road agreement. However accross the PS new employees pay was scarficed to preserve as much as possible the pay of older staff. I showed the example of the way the nurses unions have moved to restore the pay of there younger collegues I do not se that in the ASTI and GRA. It is interesting as well to see the complain about rental costs in Dublin and there ecsclation considering that Gardai and Teachers are are a good portion of the landlords in most of the country. I knwo very few Gardai over 40 years of age that do not own at least one rented house.

I think you will find taht most of us ordinary workers and small business people wish the government removed sectoral interest such as in the Medical, legal and dental professions that add to the costof living of ordinary members

Jawgap

Bass Reeves wrote: »

It is relative to whether this is an individual situtuation . If a company moves it offices or it workplace from Cork to Dublin, then in this case it gives it staff the option of moving location. If staff are unable to move location for family reasons then these staff are entitled to voluntar redundancy There may be a fight over it but in general it would be paid as it would be seen as onerous on staff to move. However in case of senior managment it may well pay them to see out there contract. In the case I said about the Bank official it changed the view of staff movment by large organisations and while some may issue contracts expecting you to move at a whip it has to be reasonable. Gardai moving for promoyion is voluntary it is individual choice. You will not get promotion in the bank or most private organisation that have multiple office unless you are willing to move. This prevents favouritism and vindictism to previous colleagues.

Gardai if I remember right were part of the orginial Croke Park agreement while they were against the Landsdowne road agreement. However accross the PS new employees pay was scarficed to preserve as much as possible the pay of older staff. I showed the example of the way the nurses unions have moved to restore the pay of there younger collegues I do not se that in the ASTI and GRA. It is interesting as well to see the complain about rental costs in Dublin and there ecsclation considering that Gardai and Teachers are are a good portion of the landlords in most of the country. I knwo very few Gardai over 40 years of age that do not own at least one rented house.

I think you will find taht most of us ordinary workers and small business people wish the government removed sectoral interest such as in the Medical, legal and dental professions that add to the costof living of ordinary members

CRA, HRA and LRA were all sorted out without the input of the Garda representative bodies because they are not affiliated to Congress, so while they were / are party to them that was by way of imposition, not negotiation.

And while there is a serious business case for major reforms in certain areas, that doesn't mean there aren't 'money grabs' in the private sector, which was your original point.

Btw, are landlords not engaged in a bit of the ol' money grabbing at the moment and are they not what might be regarded as 'private sector'? Plus while there might be a few Guards with an extra house, that kind is pales into insignificance when you realise that the largest private sector landlord in the State has nearly 2,500 properties and has bumped its rents, on average 12% so far this year.....

newwan

Jawgap wrote: »

Gardai are moved all the time. If you get promoted for example you must move division.

Trainee gardaí out of pocket after sudden transfer to Dundalk

Boo hoo... Other jobs move people frequently too

Jawgap

newwan wrote: »

Boo hoo... Other jobs move people frequently too

The point of the story was to answer a suggestion that Gardai are no longer moved at short notice - they still are, therefore the business rationale for the rent allowance remains valid.

Maybe read the relevant theme in the thread before replying?

And yes jobs move people frequently but in many, though certainly not all, instances they reimburse the employee, sometimes quite generously.

noodler

Jawgap wrote: »

The point of the story was to answer a suggestion that Gardai are no longer moved at short notice - they still are, therefore the business rationale for the rent allowance remains valid.

Maybe read the relevant theme in the thread before replying?

And yes jobs move people frequently but in many, though certainly not all, instances they reimburse the employee, sometimes quite generously.

All Gardai?

What proportion?

noodler

Jawgap wrote: »

Btw, are landlords not engaged in a bit of the ol' money grabbing at the moment and are they not what might be regarded as 'private sector'? Plus while there might be a few Guards with an extra house, that kind is pales into insignificance when you realise that the largest private sector landlord in the State has nearly 2,500 properties and has bumped its rents, on average 12% so far this year.....

Childish argument to lump the private sector together.

Jawgap

Can I suggest that it might be worth your while going back and reading the theme in the thread that led up to these posts, rather than reflexively responding to a single post?

noodler wrote: »

All Gardai?

What proportion?

The assertion was that because of legislative changes NO Gardai could be moved, deployed or re-deployed against their will or without their agreement. The point in posting the story was to correct that impression, not that a certain or even a significant proportion of Guards are moved against their will, just that the potential remains and can still be used - in summary, Guards are still subject to the exigencies of service.

noodler wrote: »

Childish argument to lump the private sector together.

Again, a rebuttal I posted to address an assertion that 'money grabs' (which is what the ASTI and/or Garda actions were being characterised as) were the exclusive preserve of the PS.

ASTI and the Garda representatives bodies may well be flexing their institutional muscles to carry out a money grab, but such behaviour is not limited to the public sector.

The greatest money grab ongoing at the moment, imo, is in the private rented sector, and specifically private landlords - some of the largest of whom hold hundreds, and in at least one case thousands, of properties.

And yes, while there are undoubtedly some Guards out there who have a house or houses let, they are price-takers not price-makers.

Graham

Jawgap wrote: »

The greatest money grab ongoing at the moment, imo, is in the private rented sector, and specifically private landlords - some of the largest of whom hold hundreds, and in at least one case thousands, of properties.

Are you seriously suggesting PS employees deserve a pay rise because of investment decisions by non-related entities?

Jawgap

Graham wrote: »

Are you seriously suggesting PS employees deserve a pay rise because of investment decisions by non-related entities?

Again, perhaps read what's being written in context.

I'm simply pointing out that while the ASTI and Garda actions may well be money grabs, the idea that such self-centred action is the sole preserve of the public sector is wrong - as evidenced by the behaviour of the large private sector landlords in Dublin (and by large I mean those controlling upwards of dozens of properties).

And no, I don't think anyone in the PS deserves much of a pay rise, but they do deserve a decent measure of pay restoration, and they do deserve to have the most egregious examples of discrimination stripped from the system of pay and remuneration.

K-9

newwan wrote: »

Boo hoo... Other jobs move people frequently too

Mod:

Up the standard please.

Graham

Jawgap wrote: »

the idea that such self-centred action is the sole preserve of the public sector is wrong

I didn't see anyone suggest otherwise so I'm not sure why you feel it necessary to continuously point it out.

Jawgap wrote: »

as evidenced by the behaviour of the large private sector landlords in Dublin (and by large I mean those controlling upwards of dozens of properties).

You're pretty obsessed with these private landlords.

Jawgap

Graham wrote: »

I didn't see anyone suggest otherwise so I'm not sure why you feel it necessary to continuously point it out.

Post #331 just above......

Bass Reeves wrote: »

.........

In reality it is a money grab by a sectoral interest. You have to question union reality in Ireland. It has virtually completely removed itself from the private sector in Ireland. It represents a sheltered sector in the country. Unlike Germany where most employments are unionized in Ireland only there dependent or semi-dependent on the state are unionized to that extent. They tend to see the state and it coffers as a nipple to be sucked dry without any regard to the effect on wider society. This disregard for wider society got us the financial crisis that we are just starting to exit. We are again heading for boom bust politicial senario's

Graham wrote: »

You're pretty obsessed with these private landlords.

I just used them as an example to show money grabs are not the sole preserve of the public sector. Good luck to them would be my view - they bought up and invested in the assets when no one was interested and are now getting a return on that investment - nothing wrong with someone doing good business, although I don't doubt that a significant number would consider that the returns they are earning are excessive.

Graham

Jawgap wrote: »

Post #331 just above.......

Post #331 makes no assertion that money grabs are the sole preserve of the public sector.

Jawgap wrote: »

I just used them as an example to show money grabs are not the sole preserve of the public sector. Good luck to them would be my view - they bought up and invested in the assets when no one was interested and are now getting a return on that investment - nothing wrong with someone doing good business, although I don't doubt that a significant number would consider that the returns they are earning are excessive.

Again I'm struggling to see a link between a private investment and the recent PS 'unrest'.

Jawgap

Graham wrote: »

Post #331 makes no assertion that money grabs are the sole preserve of the public sector.

No problem - we obviously interpret it differently

Graham wrote: »

Again I'm struggling to see a link between a private investment and the recent PS 'unrest'.

Just so, because I'm not asserting there's a link.

I'll re-state my position yet again. I'm suggesting that because of market conditions in the private rented sector around Dublin in particular, private landlords have the opportunity to generate significant returns on property assets - particularly if they acquired them at the bottom of the market, without borrowing and with a 'bulk-buy' discount. Some might say the returns they are extracting - because of market conditions - are excessive (relative to their initial investment and RoI expectations), and consequently constitute a 'money grab' - essentially in the prevailing conditions charging what the market will bear is screwing money from people and adversely impacting affordability for more and more people.

........others are free to construct and interpret it differently.

newwan

No Jawgap I read the posts. Whatever you think the 'theme' re that allowance is irrelevant.
People get moved all the time at work and do not get an allowance. So why cops are disgruntled they no longer get something that most other people never got is beyond me...

Now I'm reading another sad story of a nurse qualified 13 years who said she had a great life pre 2007 when she bought a house etc. Then the world fell apart and now she blames the hse and her wages for everything. Truth is she bought outside her means far from where she wanted to live. This is not the fault of nursing wages... She bought too big and wouldn't move... Patients have suddenly become more aggressive and shifts intolerable.

We still have a high ratio of oecd number of nurses to patients. But plenty of them are doing 20 or 30 hour weeks only. That's a large reasons why shifts are intolerable

Jawgap

newwan wrote: »

No Jawgap I read the posts. Whatever you think the 'theme' re that allowance is irrelevant.
People get moved all the time at work and do not get an allowance. So why cops are disgruntled they no longer get something that most other people never got is beyond me...

Now I'm reading another sad story of a nurse qualified 13 years who said she had a great life pre 2007 when she bought a house etc. Then the world fell apart and now she blames the hse and her wages for everything. Truth is she bought outside her means far from where she wanted to live. This is not the fault of nursing wages... She bought too big and wouldn't move... Patients have suddenly become more aggressive and shifts intolerable.

We still have a high ratio of oecd number of nurses to patients. But plenty of them are doing 20 or 30 hour weeks only. That's a large reasons why shifts are intolerable

true, but it's also worth reflecting on the note that goes with that stat......

Data include not only nurses providing direct care to patients, but also those working in the health sector as managers, educators, researchers, etc.

.....and the associated commentary......

Having a high supply of nurses does not mean that there are no shortages of nurses if the demand for their services is greater than their supply. This might be the case if nurses are asked to perform a wide range of tasks in hospitals and outside hospitals, with very few health care assistants to support them in their work.

.....and as the stat shows, Ireland is one of only a few countries that had, roughly, the same number of nurses in 2013 as we did in 2000.

The Muppet

newwan wrote: »

Now I'm reading another sad story of a nurse qualified 13 years who said she had a great life pre 2007 when she bought a house etc. Then the world fell apart and now she blames the hse and her wages for everything. Truth is she bought outside her means far from where she wanted to live. This is not the fault of nursing wages... She bought too big and wouldn't move... Patients have suddenly become more aggressive and shifts intolerable.

I though you had to leave the thread?

How do you figure she purchased a house outside her means and if she did who allowed her borrow more than they should. Her means changed dramatically after 2007 but unless she could see into the future she had no way of knowing that was going to happen.

evolving_doors

Graham wrote: »

I didn't see anyone suggest otherwise so I'm not sure why you feel it necessary to continuously point it out.



You're pretty obsessed with these private landlords.

well i have some vague recollection of a property thing back in mid 2000's...

Never mind, anyway back to how public sector has cost us €200bn bailout.

Graham

Gebgbegb wrote: »

well i have some vague recollection of a property thing back in mid 2000's...

Never mind, anyway back to how public sector has cost us €200bn bailout.

Somewhat surprisingly that isn't the weakest justification I've ever seen for a pay rise but it's definitely in the same ballpark.

Either way, it's not particularly compelling.