Why is everyone going on strike?

Jawgap

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

Is it not something in the region of 200 billion in debt. 85billion is bank debt if i heard correctly

About €197 billion and down about 14% this year, and we're holding about €33 billion in cash and near cash as a 'national reserve.'

Rightwing

The name public serveants should be changed to public spongers.

They should all be allowed go on strike and stay on strike. The show will go on.

We have the likes of Gardai going on strike, effectively breaking the law. What an absolute disgrace they are.

evolving_doors

Rightwing wrote: »

The name public serveants should be changed to public spongers.

They should all be allowed go on strike and stay on strike. The show will go on.

We have the likes of Gardai going on strike, effectively breaking the law. What an absolute disgrace they are.

What show?

Rightwing

Gebgbegb wrote: »

What show?

Life will go on. That may come as an ugly shock to public sector folk who have the perception of everything grounding to a halt if they 'down tools'. Absolute nonsense.

Private sector is what drives an economy.

alastair

Rightwing wrote: »

Life will go on. That may come as an ugly shock to public sector folk who have the perception of everything grounding to a halt if they 'down tools'. Absolute nonsense.

Private sector is what drives an economy.

A country isn't an economy. Try getting business entrepreneurs to treat cancer, put out house fires, or teach maths to kids.

Rightwing

alastair wrote: »

A country isn't an economy. Try getting business entrepreneurs to treat cancer, put out house fires, or teach maths to kids.

I don't buy that.

Privatisation offers better services. Public hospitals are the prime example of this. Why on earth would anyone consider going to one of them? Contract MRSA? Wait on a trolley for 36 hours ? And that's when they are not on strike.

evolving_doors

Rightwing wrote: »

I don't buy that.

Privatisation offers better services. Public hospitals are the prime example of this. Why on earth would anyone consider going to one of them? Contract MRSA? Wait on a trolley for 36 hours ? And that's when they are not on strike.

If privatisation was so great then why we're banks nationalised?

alastair

Rightwing wrote: »

I don't buy that.

Clearly. But it's a fact.

And you've clearly also not had to deal with private and public hospitals in this city, because it's evident that the private sector are well able to compete in the ineptitude front when it comes to patient care. Nicer menus don't really cut the mustard when it's medical treatment quality is the primary concern.

Rightwing

Gebgbegb wrote: »

If privatisation was so great then why we're banks nationalised?

Because you had imbeciles from the public sector rushing to take on large liabilities. No one else apart from Biffo et al would have touched them.

evolving_doors

Rightwing wrote: »

Life will go on. That may come as an ugly shock to public sector folk who have the perception of everything grounding to a halt if they 'down tools'. Absolute nonsense.

Private sector is what drives an economy.

Public sector workers spend money too!

Anyhow, I've no illusions that certain folk will just carry on when the schools are shut and guards are out. And you probably weren't bothered too much by the bus strike either.

But tbh as a teacher we've done the whole ' appeasing the public/parents/media ' thing with Croke park 1&2 Haddington road 1&2 and got nothing but the same old tired jealousies.
The government has shown their ignorance and thought they could rely on school managers and parents council to do their bid to whip teachers in line. They thought by bringing in strangers to supervise class rooms it's a simple babysitting job.

It's obvious the dept are desperate. BTW the money owed was budgeted for 2 years ago, the money is there. The rate they want to pay strangers is way above the agreed rate in Haddington road.

Rightwing

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Public sector workers spend money too!

Anyhow, I've no illusions that certain folk will just carry on when the schools are shut and guards are out. And you probably weren't bothered too much by the bus strike either.

But tbh as a teacher we've done the whole ' appeasing the public/parents/media ' thing with Croke park 1&2 Haddington road 1&2 and got nothing but the same old tired jealousies.
The government has shown their ignorance and thought they could rely on school managers and parents council to do their bid to whip teachers in line. They thought by bringing in strangers to supervise class rooms it's a simple babysitting job.

It's obvious the dept are desperate. BTW the money owed was budgeted for 2 years ago, the money is there. The rate they want to pay strangers is way above the agreed rate in Haddington road.

Yes they spend money, as do punters on the welfare system, but that doesn't mean they are an asset. The less of both, the better.

As for those deals, I'm not au fait with any of them. But I think the Government is your friend here. Too much so.

Gebgbegb

Gebgbegb wrote: »

If privatisation was so great then why we're banks nationalised?

Is that a genuine question? As you are a teacher, I hope not.

Because if the banks were not nationalised, then everyone's savings would have vanished.

But if it makes you feel better, there were plenty of other private businesses not nationalised. They went to the wall with their employees out of a job.

But I'm sure this pales in comparison to the plight of public sector workers.

K-9

Rightwing wrote: »

The name public serveants should be changed to public spongers.

They should all be allowed go on strike and stay on strike. The show will go on.

We have the likes of Gardai going on strike, effectively breaking the law. What an absolute disgrace they are.

Mod:

Do not post on this thread again. Calling public servants spongers is not the standard expected in the forum. You were warned before to up the standard.

Green Peter

A lot of those businesses were built on a false economy and only existed because of private sector borrowings being Lent to Irish banks who in turn threw it out to Joe soap who squandered it, I've worked in the private sector, semi state and public sector and there are equal amounts of wasters in all and wasters can survive in all sectors !

evolving_doors

Rightwing wrote: »

Yes they spend money, as do punters on the welfare system, but that doesn't mean they are an asset. The less of both, the better.

As for those deals, I'm not au fait with any of them. But I think the Government is your friend here. Too much so.

You should get yerself informed if you want to give out about those involved. No?

evolving_doors

salonfire wrote: »

Is that a genuine question? As you are a teacher, I hope not.

Because if the banks were not nationalised, then everyone's savings would have vanished.

But if it makes you feel better, there were plenty of other private businesses not nationalised. They went to the wall with their employees out of a job.

But I'm sure this pales in comparison to the plight of public sector workers.

So you would have supported the notion above that privatisation is better. As in, let the banks fail as they would in a private model? Like plenty of other businesses did.

alastair

alastair wrote: »

A country isn't an economy. Try getting business entrepreneurs to treat cancer, put out house fires, or teach maths to kids.

Who puts food in your belly? Who provides the fuel you put in your car? Who puts the clothes on your back?

When was the last time you couldn't get any of these due to a strike?

The kids won't be getting taught much the days teachers are on strike. Again.

Bass Reeves

alastair wrote: »

A country isn't an economy. Try getting business entrepreneurs to treat cancer, put out house fires, or teach maths to kids.

No a country is not an economy but when our economy is in tatters like it was from 2008 to present we see the results. We still do not have a fair wind and have challenges down the line of Brexit and higher oil prices (they will not stay low for ever)

Gebgbegb wrote: »

If privatisation was so great then why we're banks nationalised?

These issue were not all related to the private sevtor. We were warned by economist and by the EU central bank about our lending, our taxation policy and the dependence on property related tax. Our policy makers and politicians in power at the time ignore them. The trade unions had there own economists I did not see any of them complaining. Our Central bank with government conivence or approval (you can choose which is apt) allows the banks to lend money will nilly inro the building sector.

alastair wrote: »

Clearly. But it's a fact.

And you've clearly also not had to deal with private and public hospitals in this city, because it's evident that the private sector are well able to compete in the ineptitude front when it comes to patient care. Nicer menus don't really cut the mustard when it's medical treatment quality is the primary concern.

All sectors are able to complete on the ineptitue front. However in the public sector there is a shutdown at 5pm attitude when providing services. In the public health sector an awful lot of expensive machinery is under utilized. A friend of mine recently had an MRI appointment at 8pm in a private hospital he said there was more after him.

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Public sector workers spend money too!

Anyhow, I've no illusions that certain folk will just carry on when the schools are shut and guards are out. And you probably weren't bothered too much by the bus strike either.

But tbh as a teacher we've done the whole ' appeasing the public/parents/media ' thing with Croke park 1&2 Haddington road 1&2 and got nothing but the same old tired jealousies.
The government has shown their ignorance and thought they could rely on school managers and parents council to do their bid to whip teachers in line. They thought by bringing in strangers to supervise class rooms it's a simple babysitting job.

It's obvious the dept are desperate. BTW the money owed was budgeted for 2 years ago, the money is there. The rate they want to pay strangers is way above the agreed rate in Haddington road.

Here we have the old jealousy argument again. The jealousy was all on the side of the PS in 1998-2004 as they saw a private sector that was for the first time in this county starting to tick. It is the same again. There is an illusion my teachers in the ASTI that the government can tear up the Landsdowne road agreement if it dose forget about subsidize childcare, better health service better roads, better education because again the pockets of the PS will be lined at the expense of services

Green Peter wrote: »

A lot of those businesses were built on a false economy and only existed because of private sector borrowings being Lent to Irish banks who in turn threw it out to Joe soap who squandered it, I've worked in the private sector, semi state and public sector and there are equal amounts of wasters in all and wasters can survive in all sectors !

I won't say there is equal amount of waste but in all sectors there is waste. However in the private sector a more efficient operator will wipe out the business of a inefficient business. This will not happen in the public sector. Only when that service cannot be paid for in general taxation or has become unmanageable will it be redesigned. This can be seen in the way across the PS cleaning is contracted out, waste collection has been thrown over to the private sector( with out any attempt to regulate prices by tendering services) etc etc. In these cases joe soap is thrown to the wolves by the PS.

Gebgbegb wrote: »

So you would have supported the notion above that privatisation is better. As in, let the banks fail as they would in a private model? Like plenty of other businesses did.

This is a totally bland statement. I love these one or two liners from the so called inteligencia. Maybe we should nationalize everything mmmmm.......was it tried before.........yes now I remember........ the USSR, East Germany, Albania, Romania......paragons of public service efficiency.

The private sector like the public sector has it faults. However in this country we have an imbalance that causes huge boom bust cycles as when the country starts to tick public servants want to get back to the trough and have no regard to the outcome of to care little about the impact.

If we look back to the mid late '90 it was the Guards and the ASTI that started that cycle as well that led to benchmarking. I think it is time for other unions to look at the bigger picture and show some leadership. But then again these are the same paragons that are stuck in the right to water campaigne. I was not suprised to the the solicitor that was representing that young lad in the Jobstown court case. I am sure he has that young lads best interest at heart

alastair

Bass Reeves wrote: »

No a country is not an economy but when our economy is in tatters like it was from 2008 to present we see the results. We still do not have a fair wind and have challenges down the line of Brexit and higher oil prices (they will not stay low for ever)

Unless you've somehow forgotten to mention that the consequence of all this is that captains of industry will therefore be taking over fire brigade duties, you're not really engaging with the point I was making.

Jawgap

salonfire wrote: »

Who puts food in your belly? Who provides the fuel you put in your car? Who puts the clothes on your back?

When was the last time you couldn't get any of these due to a strike?

The kids won't be getting taught much the days teachers are on strike. Again.

Yes, and who makes sure the food is safe, the fuel isn't laundered and the clothes won't go up in flames near heat?

The public and private sectors aren't mutually exclusive, they're symbiotic.

For example, we're having this discussion using hardware built by the private sector using a technology developed by the (US) public sector.

alastair

Jawgap wrote: »

Yes, and who makes sure the food is safe, the fuel isn't laundered and the clothes won't go up in flames near heat?

The public and private sectors aren't mutually exclusive, they're symbiotic.

For example, we're having this discussion using hardware built by the private sector using a technology developed by the (US) public sector.

Not just the US public sector, given the entire web is the product of european public sector collaboration at CERN.

How on earth has this become a binary "private v public" thread?

There is a world of nuance in both. It should be clear that it is nonsensical to support either 'sector' blindly over the other.

Jawgap

Jawgap wrote: »

Yes, and who makes sure the food is safe, the fuel isn't laundered and the clothes won't go up in flames near heat?

The public and private sectors aren't mutually exclusive, they're symbiotic.

For example, we're having this discussion using hardware built by the private sector using a technology developed by the (US) public sector.

When was the last time you could not get any of the things I mentioned?

This year already we're looking into transport, education and security strikes.

Jawgap

salonfire wrote: »

When was the last time you could not get any of the things I mentioned?

This year already we're looking into transport, education and security strikes.

Look, private business is on possible because of the public sector.

If there wasn't a system of enforceable property rights (enforceable through the public sector staffed courts) there'd be no such thing as a private sector.

Saying that the best system of property rights is nothing without someone to utilise it.

Hence the public and private sectors are symbiotic.

....and the last time I couldn't get fuel because of a strike was 2000 in the U.K., since then I've been stranded by pilot strikes (and ATCO strikes), couldn't get my Marksies coleslaw when they went on strike and worried about my supply of chocolate when Cadbury's went on strike.

Jawgap

Jawgap wrote: »

Look, private business is on possible because of the public sector.

If there wasn't a system of enforceable property rights (enforceable through the public sector staffed courts) there'd be no such thing as a private sector.

Saying that the best system of property rights is nothing without someone to utilise it.

Hence the public and private sectors are symbiotic.

.... and the last time I couldn't get fuel because of a strike was 2000 in the U.K., since then I've been stranded by pilot strikes (and ATCO strikes), couldn't get my Marksies coleslaw when they went on strike and worried about my supply of chocolate when Cadbury's went on strike.

So you're not going to acknowledge that there are alternatives available then ?

Jawgap

salonfire wrote: »

So you're not going to acknowledge that there are alternatives available then ?

Sorry, I'm not being obtuse, but alternatives to what?

I'll happily acknowledge there are myriad suppliers of food, fuel and clothing and I can't recall ever being wholly denied any or all of them because of industrial action.

But did you ever stop to consider where and how the food, for example, comes from? What's to stop me hopping the fence at the end of my garden, cross ping the lane and helping myself to a couple of the farmer's cattle?

Jawgap

Jawgap wrote: »

Sorry, I'm not being obtuse, but alternatives to what?

I'll happily acknowledge there are myriad suppliers of food, fuel and clothing and I can't recall ever being wholly denied any or all of them because of industrial action.

But did you ever stop to consider where and how the food, for example, comes from? What's to stop me hopping the fence at the end of my garden, cross ping the lane and helping myself to a couple of the farmer's cattle?

Well, when the Garda go on strike - in the latest edition of public sector strikes - nothing.

Jawgap

salonfire wrote: »

Well, when the Garda go on strike - in the latest edition of public sector strikes - nothing.

No, everything - because the farmer will still be able to go to court and use the legal system to sue for the return of his cattle (enforceable by the local sherriff). He'll also be able to look for damages and, if he was so minded, injunct me from further trespass.

But you're right underpinning all this is the state and it's monopoly on the use of force - with the Guards engaging in industrial action, that only leaves the Army, but they can't apply force unless it's part of their ATCP mission.....

.....but does it really matter? If the private sector really doesn't need the public bloc sector then any action by the Guards, the teachers etc should have no impact on their collective capacity to operate?

Mr. teddywinkles

Jawgap wrote: »

Sorry, I'm not being obtuse, but alternatives to what?

I'll happily acknowledge there are myriad suppliers of food, fuel and clothing and I can't recall ever being wholly denied any or all of them because of industrial action.

But did you ever stop to consider where and how the food, for example, comes from? What's to stop me hopping the fence at the end of my garden, cross ping the lane and helping myself to a couple of the farmer's cattle?

How bout the end of the farmers double barrell and guess what the no gaurds to save ya

newwan

Was talking to a member of the groups proposing to strike today. Won't say the exact number of hours but she does an awful lot less than even 30 hours per week. On full pay. And she is far from the only one of her colleagues to do this...

I think the average wage really is a big issue here. An appropriate amount of money is going to these groups but too many at the top are vastly overpaid for very little value and hours back. I don't have the exact number but it sounds anecdotally like not enough people work enough hours. 39 hours per week is not unreasonable. Considering some groups do 70 to 100 hours which is obviously too many...

Jawgap

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

How bout the end of the farmers double barrell and guess what the no gaurds to save ya

No Guards to save the farmer either if I decide to bring a gun.....indeed in the absence of any reasonable prospect of being caught there'd be no incentive for me not to get my retaliation in first.....

newwan

'Sure by the time the teachers and guards get theirs there'll be nothing left for us'

gosplan

newwan wrote: »

Was talking to a member of the groups proposing to strike today. Won't say the exact number of hours but she does an awful lot less than even 30 hours per week. On full pay. And she is far from the only one of her colleagues to do this...

I think the average wage really is a big issue here. An appropriate amount of money is going to these groups but too many at the top are vastly overpaid for very little value and hours back. I don't have the exact number but it sounds anecdotally like not enough people work enough hours. 39 hours per week is not unreasonable. Considering some groups do 70 to 100 hours which is obviously too many...

I'm a teacher and I pretty much do 56 hours as standard including prep and extra stuff.

I'm very good at my job as a result and I have no problem stating that.

The issue is that the incentive for me is the work. I'm quite professional about it. Plenty of my colleagues are too. Some of them just are that way, for me I think the few years I spent in the private sector really really helped me.

The problem with the current dispute comes down to incentive to be better. People start out full of beans but without incentive and opportunity, the vast majority will be dialling it in within 10 years.

Probably the best disincentive you can put into play is arbitrary higher pay for potentially poor performing colleagues.

There's a big 'private industry' push on these forums and that's fair enough, it's the viewpoint of many. What te private industry has in spades though is the ability to incentivise things - bonuses, promotion, renegotiation, opportunities elsewhere.

Everyone's just out to maximise utility and you have to make the most of that.

Personally I think it's important that teachers be financially safe in terms of being focussed on their job without having to worry about money. Additionally, you have to worry about what kind of graduates you may be attracting to the profession.

Who's your kids maths teacher going to be?

Smart capable student with maths/engineering degree or industry experience? Leave college/work to pay 10k for an extra 2 year diploma and start on less than 30k with very little chance of moving off that scale?

Or a middle class C-student with general business/Science degree. Not good/hardworking enough to really achieve in that field so just stay in school and end up teaching maths because there are so few qualified maths teachers.

The more we devalue the profession the worse quality teachers we'll get.

When that a done that I think you have to address the issue of underperforming teachers and improving the education system.

Jawgap

A couple of 'observations' following on from @gosplan's post.....

I think it was Croke Park that 'extended' the working week for public servants to 37 hours......I remember at the time a lot of people I worked with put a lot of effort into getting a 37 hour week in......mostly by giving up the extra hours they were doing. The average working week (net of lunch breaks) in our place at the time went from around about 43 hours to about 37 hours - people simply thought that if 37 hours was so important, you'd be a bit of a muppet to work any longer - and work related travel was only undertaken during working hours with the effect that jobs that used to take a day ended up taking 2.

Second, unrelated to the above point, my nephew is currently working towards becoming a science and maths teacher - I've lost count of the number of people who've said and suggested that he's wasting his time/talent/energy/intelligence - that with his results he'd be better doing something else. Thankfully, he's sticking with something he's always wanted to do (teach)......but his focus is very much on getting qualified but moving to the UK to work.

blackwhite

gosplan wrote: »

The problem with the current dispute comes down to incentive to be better. People start out full of beans but without incentive and opportunity, the vast majority will be dialling it in within 10 years.DLSP - N Casserly

Probably the best disincentive you can put into play is arbitrary higher pay for potentially poor performing colleagues.

To be honest, I'm struggling to see where there's any "incentive to be better" in what the ASTI are looking for. It seems to me that they keep pushing for more of the automatic increments regardless of how good or poor your performance is.
Trying to claim that their actions are about improving standards doesn't hold a lot of credibility when you see how vehemently they will resist anything remotely resembling assessment of teacher performance.

gosplan

blackwhite wrote: »

To be honest, I'm struggling to see where there's any "incentive to be better" in what the ASTI are looking for. It seems to me that they keep pushing for more of the automatic increments regardless of how good or poor your performance is.
Trying to claim that their actions are about improving standards doesn't hold a lot of credibility when you see how vehemently they will resist anything remotely resembling assessment of teacher performance.

That's just why I feel it's important, I don't speak for the union. Teachers, as with any other employees need to feel valued and treated fairly.

As regards the ASTI, you're right.

I feel this whole thing is way way overdue from them and a lot of it is about securing membership (but I'm being cynical).

Really though if you are a proper UNION, then this should have happened 4/5 years ago.

But yeah, standing in the way of progress is something they also do, sometimes for different reasons than you may think but I think they should be far more vocal about what their plans for education are rather than just saying 'no' to things that are suggested.

Just FYI: this issue doesn't concern me because I'm an older teacher on the higher rate of pay. I'm very very sceptical of the teaching unions but this is the ONLY issue I've ever seen that I'd go on strike for.

evolving_doors

gosplan wrote: »

That's just why I feel it's important, I don't speak for the union. Teachers, as with any other employees need to feel valued and treated fairly.

As regards the ASTI, you're right.

I feel this whole thing is way way overdue from them and a lot of it is about securing membership (but I'm being cynical).

Really though if you are a proper UNION, then this should have happened 4/5 years ago.

But yeah, standing in the way of progress is something they also do, sometimes for different reasons than you may think but I think they should be far more vocal about what their plans for education are rather than just saying 'no' to things that are suggested.

Just FYI: this issue doesn't concern me because I'm an older teacher on the higher rate of pay. I'm very very sceptical of the teaching unions but this is the ONLY issue I've ever seen that I'd go on strike for.

The plans for education lie with the NCCA (remember the ones Ruairi Quinn thumbed his nose at to bring in his own New Junior Cert!).

And at that, just because the NCCA makes plans doesn't mean that teachers can't challenge them. We're educated enough to see what has happened in the England and Scotland.. they are trying to do a U-turn while our Dept. of Ed. is trying to ape the same failing system. Let's just get this out there right now... we're not Finland,

evolving_doors

maryishere wrote: »

We are certainly not. Our tachers work the shortest number of days of any teachers in the world : only 198 days, with a whooping 167 off. Combine that with a salary which is one of the best teachers salaries in Europe, and a golden pension, and you can see why the government cannot give in on this one. Not with Brexit around the corner, and all the other public service unions gathering around the trough.

Do you know what the starting salary of a teacher actually is?
Do you realise that the pension scheme has changed from defined benefit to career average?
Did TD's go onto a 'new entrants' revised payscale recently?

Name a figure... how much do you think a full time teacher should be paid after say 10 years into the job?

useful - http://eacea.ec.europa.eu/education/eurydice/documents/facts_and_figures/salaries.pdf

&

http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/content/table/teachsal-table-en

PeadarCo

gosplan wrote:

Smart capable student with maths/engineering degree or industry experience? Leave college/work to pay 10k for an extra 2 year diploma and start on less than 30k with very little chance of moving off that scale?

Is that not an argument for paying teachers at 2nd level different amounts depending on the subject they teach and qualifications? I can't imagine any of the unions supporting that idea.

Jawgap

PeadarCo wrote: »

Is that not an argument for paying teachers at 2nd level different amounts depending on the subject they teach and qualifications? I can't imagine any of the unions supporting that idea.

.....or free third level education......go to uni, get a maths/science degree agree to teach for say 5 years minimum and you don't have to pay for your third level education, or you pay, then get the fees refunded.

ZeroThreat

The Muppet wrote: »

Because they want to be able to afford to keep a roof over their head and food on the table. My daughter is a UK trained Mental Health nurse who came back here to work after she graduated, she's working in Dublin on approx 23k a year that's along way from your 40k. With rents averaging £1500 a month in Dublin it doesn't take mathematician to see how its struggle to get by on such a low salary and explain why they want more.

Maybe your daughter could consider house sharing to split the costs?

BoJack Horseman

tayto lover wrote: »

Deleted post

Based on those figures the average salary for a PS worker has dropped by nearly 10%.
That is significant when in comparison to the UK they are going mad over 1% annual pay rises.

At the same time the cuts were very very necessary.
These reductions have saved the people at least €15bn over the last 5 years which would otherwise be added to the national debt.

gosplan

PeadarCo wrote: »

Is that not an argument for paying teachers at 2nd level different amounts depending on the subject they teach and qualifications? I can't imagine any of the unions supporting that idea.

They've always been paid according to qualifications.

I'm not advocating subject based pay. Just that maths has been in the headlines for years with successive gvts calling for pure maths and engineering grads to take up teaching roles.

blackwhite

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Do you realise that the pension scheme has changed from defined benefit to career average?

It's still a defined benefit scheme, it's just that the benefit isn't quite as good as it used be. It's not at the mercy of equity markets going up and down.

It's still significantly more beneficial than what's available to 99% of private sector workers.

gosplan

blackwhite wrote: »

It's still a defined benefit scheme, it's just that the benefit isn't quite as good as it used be. It's not at the mercy of equity markets going up and down.

It's still significantly more beneficial than what's available to 99% of private sector workers.

Why these conversations always come down to public vrs private I don't know.

Private sector employees are valued according to their work and it's profitability.

That's trickier with people like teachers and guards but the question is how much do we, as a nation, value them?

I thought the previous question was good. How much should a full time teacher with 10 years experience be on?

The average UCD student after 15 years at work is on 88K.

oppenheimer1

gosplan wrote: »

Why these conversations always come down to public vrs private I don't know.

Private sector employees are valued according to their work and it's profitability.

That's trickier with people like teachers and guards but the question is how much do we, as a nation, value them?

I thought the previous question was good. How much should a full time teacher with 10 years experience be on?

The average UCD student after 15 years at work is on 88K.

Based on a 22hr working week + 1hr day prep time, a graduate teacher post 2012 earns on day one of employment approximately €30 an hour. If this hourly rate was applied to someone with normal holiday and working a 35hr week, they would be starting on a salary of €49,824.

A full time teacher with 10 years experience is on €44 an hour, which someone with normal holiday entitlements and working hours would need to earn €72,298 per year to have the same hourly rate.

lalababa

Most public wages/pensions are unsustainable, as are house prices, land prices, rent, low corporation tax, section 110 tax, social wefare payments,burning fossil fuels,having over 2.5 million vehicles on the road, producing food for 20million people at the cost of production, eating processed food, etc. ect.

kelewan8

why would younger workers in any profession have wage parity with those who have been in the job much longer? You earn your stripes, you need to achieve benchmarks or not. Just because you studied to be a teacher should not mean you have a 'job for life'. You sign the contract you are given, accept the job and are expected to uphold the standards you signed up to; and your performance should be duly rated on an ongoing basis to assess whether you are due a pay hike or not.

Economies change. That is independent of every single job in the universe. I'd quite like to go back in time and reboot the salary I got with the same circumstances that existed back before it all went awry, but a donkey would know that is not the way life or economies work.

The fact remains that teaching is one of the higher starting salaries for a graduate of any kind (shamefully so) and if young teachers are not happy with what they are getting, fly the nest and go abroad, because I could do your role any an everyday without four years 'training' and an 'arts degree'.;)

gosplan

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Based on a 22hr working week + 1hr day prep time, a graduate teacher post 2012 earns on day one of employment approximately €30 an hour. If this hourly rate was applied to someone with normal holiday and working a 35hr week, they would be starting on a salary of €49,824.

A full time teacher with 10 years experience is on €44 an hour, which someone with normal holiday entitlements and working hours would need to earn €72,298 per year to have the same hourly rate.

Everyone I know on full hours works far more than 27 hours.

Anyway, I have to go now and work my 5 1/2 hour day.