TUI stance on ASTI strike?

mtoutlemonde

implausible wrote: »

No, the opposite in fact, older members who left the union to save money or who had never any time for unions. They didn't want to cross a picket manned by their colleagues, so took the common-sense option open to them. I'm in a TUI school and nearly all the younger teachers are members.

Re the younger teachers - I can't really blame them - CID after two years - with the way teaching has gone.

implausible

mtoutlemonde wrote:

Re the younger teachers - I can't really blame them - CID after two years - with the way teaching has gone.

They were members before that came in, I'm referring to the JC strikes last year.

jameorahiely

ccazza wrote: »

You couldn't actually be more wrong there. The majority of teachers who voted in this ballot or not LPT. They have nothing to gain but just pay to lose in support of our colleagues. Also one of the reasons we have not accepted the new Junior Certificate is to do with our students. I can't agree to Common Level papers. I believe the more capable students need to be challenged more and the less able also have to be comfortable with their courses. Students will be prepared for their exams as always. The more ironic thing about all this is that teachers will make up to students days they lost by more than likely taking students for extra classes in their own time.

But they don't support their colleagues as they signed the agreement their striking colleagues wouldn't. So why a big display about crossing the picket?

r93kaey5p2izun

jameorahiely wrote: »

But they don't support their colleagues as they signed the agreement their striking colleagues wouldn't. So why a big display about crossing the picket?

Those concerned about crossing the picket are no doubt part of the thousands who voted to reject the agreement and who would be ASTI members if they had that option. Of course this is plain as day to anybody except those here for nothing but a row.

evolving_doors

Alejandro Curved Guano wrote: »

Those concerned about crossing the picket are no doubt part of the thousands who voted to reject the agreement and who would be ASTI members if they had that option. Of course this is plain as day to anybody except those here for nothing but a row.

I think it's hard to generalise though.

Like you've supporters and naysayers both within and outside the ASTI/TUI. And non-union... or yet to join.. or were union and left...

There's a teacher in our school who despises unions (even the very concept of one!).. but always takes the pay cut rather than making themselves available to work... just because they view taking the pay (even though they are at home) as crossing the picket.
Whereas other younger staff (on part time hours) not in a union are delighted to have the day off.. and openly mock the teachers having to stand out in the cold.
Each to their own I suppose... but the mind boggles sometimes.

doc_17

It will not come to passing a picket. In dual union schools there will be grounds to close the schools on H&S grounds due to the withdrawal of S&S

evolving_doors

doc_17 wrote: »

It will not come to passing a picket. In dual union schools there will be grounds to close the schools on H&S grounds due to the withdrawal of S&S

The s&S issue doesn't start till November though. The other issue starts next week.

doc_17

Gebgbegb wrote: »

The s&S issue doesn't start till November though. The other issue starts next week.

School management will be very conscious of not making TUI members pass the picket of their fellow teachers as it will be a disaster for that school. Local arrangements will be put in place. Whether we like it or not, TUI are not in dispute. And if they can sign a letter to say that they are available for work and then they are told to stay at home then that's what should be done.

The way this government behave they could treat not working as a break in service if it wasn't a properly sanctioned stirke!!

Westeros

Just wondering what are the general thoughts on a Further Education College staying open during these strikes?
A meeting was held today and all staff members are torn, TUI have been hard to get information out of.
The college is under the one umbrella as the secondary school, same principal, roll number etc. Both the school and college are dual-union with members of ASTI and TUI in both.
The news from the top re the college seems to be "go ahead as normal as only one member of the college is ASTI" while TUI members are worried about disregarding the views of their colleagues.

deiseindublin

If it's one roll number, then it's one school and irrelevant what the breakdown in the FE college is. Even one ASTI member on a staff would have all of the TUI members crossing the picket.

Westeros

deiseindublin wrote: »

If it's one roll number, then it's one school and irrelevant what the breakdown in the FE college is. Even one ASTI member on a staff would have all of the TUI members crossing the picket.

My thoughts exactly! Argument at the moment seems to be that there is only one member of ASTI in the college so it is unlikely that there will be a picket.
Not sure what that ASTI member intends to do if they're not picketing at their place of work.

deiseindublin

Surely if it's one roll number and one Principal then members of the 2nd level school could help with the picket at the college? Only a case of splitting up the rota.

Westeros

deiseindublin wrote: »

Surely if it's one roll number and one Principal then members of the 2nd level school could help with the picket at the college? Only a case of splitting up the rota.

I'm getting the impression the principal would rather keep the college open and limit the strike to the school only, stressing that that was the way it was done for the last big strike. Afaik the last strike was surrounding Junior Cert reform, which wasn't very relevant to the college. However, the issue of pay applies across the board.

deiseindublin

The strike issue is irrelevant though. An ASTI strike is an ASTI strike, 1 member pr 100% staff membership, it doesn't matter. It's not up to the principal.

Ask ASTI rep to pose the question to the area rep and I'm sure they'll be saying same thing.

man_no_plan

deiseindublin wrote: »

The strike issue is irrelevant though. An ASTI strike is an ASTI strike, 1 member pr 100% staff membership, it doesn't matter. It's not up to the principal.

Ask ASTI rep to pose the question to the area rep and I'm sure they'll be saying same thing.

This isn't an all out strike though and TUI, IMPACT, SIPTU etc workers in a school or centre arentbin dispute. What may close a school is an inability to provide a service and health and safety. If only one teacher (as in one ASTI member) is in dispute could that be enough to close a school?

In normal IR issues a strike by one grade doesn't close a workplace automatically.

If there are enough TUI people on staff, for s/s for example, the withdrawal of the ASTI may not close the school. This is only relevant to dual union schools of course.

There are very clear guidelines on striking. ASTI would need to apply to ICTU for an all out strike to guarantee closing of schools.

Whether local management would force the issue is another Matter. It would be foolish to do so in my view but there can be no accounting for the actions of a CEO.

deiseindublin

I'm talking about a picket for the rolling strike days, not S&S withdrawal.

evolving_doors

deiseindublin wrote: »

I'm talking about a picket for the rolling strike days, not S&S withdrawal.

So it'll be just the one ASTI striking (although if they alert union they might send others around!). it's not an all out strike so leaving aside the issue of not having enough cover to ensure student safety, then the school carries on.

deiseindublin

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/1018/824857-tui-meeting/

RealJohn

It would be very disappointing if the TUI do anything other than tell their members not to pass the picket, especially given that they'd be telling their members to pass a picket manned by their colleagues (but even if the picket was by a union representing a different group of workers, that should still be the message).

Our place is in an odd position. Technically, we're dual union but we only have one member of staff in the ASTI and apparently, they'be been informed that they're not allowed to picket on their own on health and safety grounds. If there's no actual picketing going on, would it still be considered passing the picket (since I assume that my colleague still won't be at work on strike days)?

Also, in terms of letters, do those letters just say you're available for work or that you're available for work but won't pass a picket? If the latter, I don't see the problem. If the former, those who sign it should (in theory) pass the picket and sit in the car park if the school is closed. Otherwise they're not available for work and the letter is a lie.

darlett

RealJohn wrote: »

It would be very disappointing if the TUI do anything other than tell their members not to pass the picket, especially given that they'd be telling their members to pass a picket manned by their colleagues (but even if the picket was by a union representing a different group of workers, that should still be the message).

Our place is in an odd position. Technically, we're dual union but we only have one member of staff in the ASTI and apparently, they'be been informed that they're not allowed to picket on their own on health and safety grounds.

I' sorry for the disappointment really don't see how the TUI can advise members to stay away. They are their own union and make (much heralded) agreements for their union members, not for another union's members.

Our school also has a very low percentage of ASTI members. Rumours of these members been gathered to picket outside other nearby schools with larger ASTI membership, though I have no idea on the truth or accuracy of that.

I'm also unsure why people seem to take it personal the actions of an individual conforming to their unions dictates. If a TUI teacher doesn't object to an ASTI teacher striking, why can an ASTI teacher object morally to a TUI teacher working?

Only started teaching in January and am currently working on maternity up until Christmas and I hate all this. Have been trying to decide on what union to join, but really I think I will finish my NQT requirements and throw my hand back into industry for a time. Teaching is a very difficult job with out the minefield of trying to get properly paid for it too.

evolving_doors

This keeps cropping up but my understanding is that it's not an all out strike so folk are free to come and go once they aren't ASTI. Am I right?

man_no_plan

Gebgbegb wrote: »

This keeps cropping up but my understanding is that it's not an all out strike so folk are free to come and go once they aren't ASTI. Am I right?

That would be my understanding. If you aren't in dispute and your workplace is open you would be expected to present yourself for work.

That's the black and white view, not everything is black and white.

What closes schools is not the strike, per se, its the health and safety issue around students having nothing to do and being unsupervised. If there are adequate TUI people who are working their contracts and who are not in dispute with their employers I can't see how they could legally not attend work.

As for ASTI members picketing another school I don't think that is allowed as their employer doesn't carry out their business at that place. The employer is the BOM even though the dispute is with the DES so there is room for clarification here.

I don't think it is a good thing, by the way, to be passing pickets and so on. On the other hand why would teachers not in dispute refuse to pass a picket?

I wouldn't shop in Dunne's while the strike was on out of support with the striking workers but I had nothing to lose there. There is no protection unless covered by strike notice to the best of my knowledge.

The purpose of a picket is to inform the public that there is a dispute and to provide information and so on. Not to blockade or prevent access to a premises. In fact while on strike picketers should not enter the premises for any reason.

coillsaille

Gebgbegb wrote: »

This keeps cropping up but my understanding is that it's not an all out strike so folk are free to come and go once they aren't ASTI. Am I right?

The ASTI picket guidelines say: non members should not be obstructed from entering, any union members entering must be reported. So that's the official rule. But if we're talking about the ethical aspect of non members crossing the picket then I'm not sure what the answer is.

RealJohn

darlett wrote: »

I' sorry for the disappointment really don't see how the TUI can advise members to stay away. They are their own union and make (much heralded) agreements for their union members, not for another union's members.

But that's the whole thing about striking. It's discouraged that anyone should pass the picket. The postman serving the school shouldn't be passing the picket if there's a strike on if he agrees with the notion of striking. It's not really a matter of whether you agree or not. If there's a strike on, the only times you should be passing a picket is if you actively disagree with the strike or in cases like doctors in an emergency department or the like.

darlett wrote: »

I'm also unsure why people seem to take it personal the actions of an individual conforming to their unions dictates. If a TUI teacher doesn't object to an ASTI teacher striking, why can an ASTI teacher object morally to a TUI teacher working?

Passing the picket is undermining your colleagues' protest.

evolving_doors

RealJohn wrote: »

But that's the whole thing about striking. It's discouraged that anyone should pass the picket. The postman serving the school shouldn't be passing the picket if there's a strike on if he agrees with the notion of striking. It's not really a matter of whether you agree or not. If there's a strike on, the only times you should be passing a picket is if you actively disagree with the strike or in cases like doctors in an emergency department or the like.

Passing the picket is undermining your colleagues' protest.

But that's an all-out strike (e.g. for the postman) whereby members are directed not to pass the picket.
This is not an all-out. So union members take their direction from above, just as we abide to do.

Allowing a doctor to go through on the grounds of health... Maybe education is just as important? I.e. Allowing TUI teachers to cross on the grounds of education!

RealJohn

I did say emergency medicine, not routine checkups though.

I would say that passing a picket during a work stoppage is a no no (although if someone could clarify the difference between an 'all out strike' and what the ASTI are doing on Thursday, I'd appreciate it). I don't think there would be grounds for the TUI members pulling out of S&S in solidarity with the ASTI members and I don't think anyone is suggesting they should but if the ASTI are laying down tools and picketing outside, that's a different matter entirely for me. Is that not what's happening on Thursday or have I been misinformed?

coillsaille

AFAIK, an all out strike would be calling on all workers, of any union, to boycott the place of work. ASTI aren't doing that on the strike days.

man_no_plan

coillsaille wrote: »

AFAIK, an all out strike would be calling on all workers, of any union, to boycott the place of work. ASTI aren't doing that on the strike days.

Legally there has to be a secret ballot for industrial action and notice must be served. The TUI cannot take industrial action as there is no dispute and has been no ballot.

A sudden bout of illness could befall all the TUI members in dual schools. I put a link up there from rte where Mac gabhann states that TUI members would lose pay if they didn't go to work on the strike days but that they would defend members who wouldn't pass the picket.

Hopefully it won't arise as schools will close under H&S. If however asti members aren't absent in sufficient numbers to creates a h&s situation schools may not close which could lead to a difficulty.

deiseindublin

TUI still have a mandate to strike over pay afair, they're just not using it (yet?).

RealJohn

man_no_plan wrote: »

Legally there has to be a secret ballot for industrial action and notice must be served. The TUI cannot take industrial action as there is no dispute and has been no ballot.

Not passing a picket is not taking industrial action though. It's simply adhering to a fundamental tenet of union membership. You don't pass a picket, regardless of what union is picketing.

I'm ok with losing pay those days if necessary. I'm in the TUI so I have to accept that we voted to accept the 'agreement' even though I voted against it (another fundamental tenet of union membership - you accept the collective decision) but I fully support the ASTI's strike and would much rather both unions were striking. I definitely don't want to pass a picket, if there's picketing going on.