TUI stance on ASTI strike?

deiseindublin

man_no_plan wrote: »

The TUI cannot take industrial action as there is no dispute and has been no ballot.

Just on this point, there is an ongoing dispute, although you wouldn't believe it from reading the rest of their Q&A here.

What is the current status of the union’s mandate for industrial action on the issue of pay parity?
This mandate was used by the union to secure the discussions that resulted in the May 2016 Agreement and in the significant progress made in subsequent negotiations across a wide range of sectoral issues, (including the 16th September document). These negotiations are ongoing and our mandate is live. Should it be required at a future point, it can and will be activated.

On page 3/5 here: http://www.tui.ie/_fileupload/Pay%20Parity%20Breakthrough%20QA%20FINAL%2026Sept.pdf

man_no_plan

deiseindublin wrote: »

TUI still have a mandate to strike over pay afair, they're just not using it (yet?).

The did ballot in January, but they have to give 7 days notice to strike. Given what has happened in the interim the mandate would be weak and members accepted the proposals in May

deiseindublin

If we were to play the usual % game, only 57% of TUIs voted and only 63% of that 57% voted YES. TUI had a very poor Yes vote really, less than 36% voted to accept it so that's a very weak mandate after actively canvassing for a Yes vote.

man_no_plan

RealJohn wrote: »

Not passing a picket is not taking industrial action though. It's simply adhering to a fundamental tenet of union membership. You don't pass a picket, regardless of what union is picketing.

I'm ok with losing pay those days if necessary. I'm in the TUI so I have to accept that we voted to accept the 'agreement' even though I voted against it (another fundamental tenet of union membership - you accept the collective decision) but I fully support the ASTI's strike and would much rather both unions were striking. I definitely don't want to pass a picket, if there's picketing going on.

Guidance issued earlier today

http://www.tui.ie/_fileupload/FAQs%20ASTI%20Strike%20post%20EC%20231016.docx

Very clear that to not turn in for work where the school is open would constitute unofficial action. When I worked in industry we often took unofficial action, well about once a year I'd say, and we always got paid, TUI have also said they'd defend against disciplinary action. I think if not going in, or making yourself 'available' would at least result in the loss of a days pay.

In practice most schools won't open I'd say so it won't be an issue, its interesting to note that there is a scenario in the document where there would be ASTI members in a school but no picket, presumably where numbers are low?

Do such members have to picket at a different venue?

r93kaey5p2izun

There are some cases where ASTI members will be picketing at a different school. You are only allowed to picket your own employer but in the case of the ETB any ETB school is still belonging to your employer. And it is most likely ETB schools that only have one/two members causing this issue to arise - this is the case with the school I know of. The employer is the BOM in other schools though so I don't think it would work outside the ETB. Voluntary schools are generally majority ASTI anyway but I'm not sure about C&C schools.

TheDriver

Alejandro Curved Guano wrote: »

There are some cases where ASTI members will be picketing at a different school. You are only allowed to picket your own employer but in the case of the ETB any ETB school is still belonging to your employer. And it is most likely ETB schools that only have one/two members causing this issue to arise - this is the case with the school I know of. The employer is the BOM in other schools though so I don't think it would work outside the ETB. Voluntary schools are generally majority ASTI anyway but I'm not sure about C&C schools.

I thought the law was the workplace as opposed to the employed?

r93kaey5p2izun

TheDriver wrote: »

I thought the law was the workplace as opposed to the employed?

I thought that too myself but this is what a friend has been instructed to do in a school with only 2/3 ASTI members. The ETB is probably glad one less school will be picketed anyway but I would be concerned about any fallout from not following correct procedures.

man_no_plan

Alejandro Curved Guano wrote: »

I thought that too myself but this is what a friend has been instructed to do in a school with only 2/3 ASTI members. The ETB is probably glad one less school will be picketed anyway but I would be concerned about any fallout from not following correct procedures.

I thought myself it was the employer too. The dispute isn't actually with the employer though either, its with the DES but they're not anyone's employer really.

Moody_mona

Can I just clarify that TUI members and SNAs etc are saying they're available for work because they're not striking?

I'm in a dual union school and there's just some confusion around the wording. Saying you're available for work doesn't mean you're going to cross the picket, right?

NufcNavan

Moody_mona wrote: »

Can I just clarify that TUI members and SNAs etc are saying they're available for work because they're not striking?

I'm in a dual union school and there's just some confusion around the wording. Saying you're available for work doesn't mean you're going to cross the picket, right?

You are crossing the picket in every other sense other than physically.

Moody_mona

Can you say you're available for work but not cross the picket?

Moody_mona

I'm ASTI and striking, I just don't understand the wording that's why I'm asking!

evolving_doors

Moody_mona wrote: »

Can I just clarify that TUI members and SNAs etc are saying they're available for work because they're not striking?

I'm in a dual union school and there's just some confusion around the wording. Saying you're available for work doesn't mean you're going to cross the picket, right?

It's a matter of interpretation which the TUI have said they would leave up to members.

But.. from the TUI: "The Teacher's Union of Ireland will not cooperate with any “alternative timetable or temporary rostering arrangements” during ASTI strike"HERE

So if you are in a dual union school and a TUI member, you shouldn't be doing ANY duties normally done by an ASTI teacher who is on strike. Sooo just check the timetable... Also dont forget your limit for S&S hours can't be exceeded in a week.

It's a bit confusing though:

Industrial relations legislation bars the union from directing their members not to cross the ASTI picket line, with members who refuse to do so regarded as being “engaged in unofficial strike action.”

They will however “support any member of the TUI who does not pass a picket, should disciplinary action be threatened or taken against her/him.”

NufcNavan

Moody_mona wrote: »

I'm ASTI and striking, I just don't understand the wording that's why I'm asking!

If you are ASTI then it's assumed you are not available for work.

TheDriver

Moody_mona wrote: »

Can you say you're available for work but not cross the picket?

You can but if the school is open, then you aren't turning up for work. Its like saying you are available for work and staying at home on a normal day.
However at this stage, dual union schools will have their positions clear on a school by school basis as it depends on the makeup of the staff union membership.

Moody_mona

Thanks for the advice

Westeros

I'm just going to post the information we received re the strike.
We're a further education college operating alongside the local community school - same roll number, principal etc.

The information we received from TUI was as follows:
Where the school is all TUI members - operate as normal.
Where the school is dual union and majority are ASTI members - close if health and safety are at risk.
Where the school is dual union and majority are TUI members - operate as normal if health and safety allow.

Something along the lines of TUI stating that they will back any members/schools if they decide to strike.

joebloggs32

Westeros wrote: »

I'm just going to post the information we received re the strike.
We're a further education college operating alongside the local community school - same roll number, principal etc.

The information we received from TUI was as follows:
Where the school is all TUI members - operate as normal.
Where the school is dual union and majority are ASTI members - close if health and safety are at risk.
Where the school is dual union and majority are TUI members - operate as normal if health and safety allow.

Something along the lines of TUI stating that they will back any members/schools if they decide to strike.

TUI members can't strike. We have no notice given. What may happen is some may choose not to cross a picket. This amounts to unofficial action which could result in a loss of a days pay and service for pension. The TUI will however defend a member against any subsequent disciplinary action if it were taken.

evolving_doors

joebloggs32 wrote: »

TUI members can't strike. We have no notice given. What may happen is some may choose not to cross a picket. This amounts to unofficial action which could result in a loss of a days pay and service for pension. The TUI will however defend a member against any subsequent disciplinary action if it were taken.

In all likely hood if there were a number of ASTI members to 'cover' then doing this work would be tantemount to crossing a picket... not only crossing a picket, but crossing a picket to do a striking person's work.

I think it would be the same as dublin bus hiring in private bus drivers to pick up the slack while other workers are out at the gates.

joebloggs32

Gebgbegb wrote: »

In all likely hood if there were a number of ASTI members to 'cover' then doing this work would be tantemount to crossing a picket... not only crossing a picket, but crossing a picket to do a striking person's work.

I think it would be the same as dublin bus hiring in private bus drivers to pick up the slack while other workers are out at the gates.

The TUI have been very clear on this. No TUI member may undertake the work nomerly done by an ASTI member.

Mardy Bum

If this industrial action isn't the beginning of the end of the TUI as a second level union it will be a wasted opportunity.

man_no_plan

Mardy Bum wrote: »

If this industrial action isn't the beginning of the end of the TUI as a second level union it will be a wasted opportunity.

Huh?

Mardy Bum

man_no_plan wrote: »

Mardy Bum wrote: »

If this industrial action isn't the beginning of the end of the TUI as a second level union it will be a wasted opportunity.

Huh?

TUI should leave the second level to ASTI. One employer yet two unions is laughable and suits government agenda. All TUI secondary teachers that I have spoken voted against LRA yet it passed. Third level vote no doubt swung it.

Darwin

Not this again! I'm third level and for some reason you think we got a soft ride from LRA? I'll refer you to my earlier post on this. TUI has about 11,000 members and of that I would expect the IoT sector to account for about 4000 or so. So second level numbers are considerably greater and in my view it is quite likely that new entrants looking for a CID would have voted for the agreement. But we will never know as there was no breakdown offered between the two sectors.

deiseindublin

Mardy Bum wrote: »

TUI should leave the second level to ASTI. One employer yet two unions is laughable and suits government agenda. All TUI secondary teachers that I have spoken voted against LRA yet it passed. Third level vote no doubt swung it.

I actually don't think that's what happened. There was even less in it for Third Levels.

The turnout was a disgrace (56% I think). Less than 36% of TUI actually voted Yes to LRA second time round and that was with a Yes recommendation. I can't get my head around somebody not bothering to vote on something so important.

I think we had a big silent majority saying they were voting No but voting Yes in the end, maybe for CID reasons.

TheDriver

deiseindublin wrote: »

voting Yes in the end, maybe for CID reasons.

To be fair, it's a big carrot for anyone in that position

deiseindublin

Not disputing that TheDriver, obviously it was a big draw to going with TUI rec.

Red Alert

I'm third level and our branch (from what I know) voted against LRA, as did I. Our branch officers recommended a no vote. The problem with the TUI is at the head of the union.

Benicetomonty

Red Alert wrote: »

I'm third level and our branch (from what I know) voted against LRA, as did I. Our branch officers recommended a no vote. The problem with the TUI is at the head of the union.

Agree entirely. A massive percentage of both unions is apathetic in the extreme. A bewildering amount will vote according to recommendations given by standing committee whilst remaining totally ignorant of the issues involved. One of the criticisms of the current ASTI leadership is that they were somehow unwilling to detail the full consequences of discarding CP hrs and ceasing to perform s and s for free. I dont buy that but honestly believe, hypothetically, that it wouldnt have made any difference as long as the Yes was recommended.

implausible

Mardy Bum wrote:

TUI should leave the second level to ASTI. One employer yet two unions is laughable and suits government agenda. All TUI secondary teachers that I have spoken voted against LRA yet it passed. Third level vote no doubt swung it.

I don't know how true that is, but it seems to be repeated a lot. I can't find the proportion of secondary teachers to further Ed and 3rd level in the 14,000+ members of TUI, but every vocational school and community college in the country is solely or in the majority TUI. We are not a tiny minority in the union.

There was a strong yes to LRA vote in my area, the promise of pay restoration, s/s money and keeping the Ward report were substantial carrots.