I don't know what I want

Johnnyhpipe

Hi,

No sure of this is the right forum - i was raised as a catholic - as in my mam brought me to mass on christmas morning, easter sunday and whenever my granny was over so she could pretend we went every sunday. I havent been to mass in years apart from funerals/weddings. However at 34 now, with a 2 year old kid I'm feeling like I should introduce him to mass or something (anything). I consider myself a man of science and know that there no reasonable way that any sort of supernatural god can exist - but i really wish I could believe in one!

Has anyone else been through that? As in, you know it cant exist but you wish it did..?

looksee

I'm feeling like I should introduce him to mass or something (anything)

Since his is only 2, I guess at this stage other mass goers will be delighted if you do not succumb to this urge immediately. He would not have a clue what was going on anyway.

Why do you feel you should introduce him to mass? And why exactly do you wish you could believe in a god? Are you looking for a kind of social structure to belong to? There can be a certain 'comfortableness' in being part of a 'club' that your neighbours and relatives belong to, but if you hang around here for a bit you will get over that.

learn_more

I believe your question is borne out of an innate desire not to die.

I say innate because although you will eventually die, our species will continue, because you strive to survive.

Your wishes for this and that, are genetically part of your makeup. You are born with this desire to live forever.

But you can't live forever, but our species can. How many people have died before you came about?

You actually have a great great great great great grandmother, who asked the same question.

You know, believing that one never dies, is actually a survival mechanism.

There is an expression 'live in the moment'. I suggest this life is the only moment we have and you can't live it once it's gone.

Where do you think our millions of ancestors are now ?

Looking down on us? I don't think so.

Akrasia

Johnnyhpipe wrote: »

Hi,

No sure of this is the right forum - i was raised as a catholic - as in my mam brought me to mass on christmas morning, easter sunday and whenever my granny was over so she could pretend we went every sunday. I havent been to mass in years apart from funerals/weddings. However at 34 now, with a 2 year old kid I'm feeling like I should introduce him to mass or something (anything). I consider myself a man of science and know that there no reasonable way that any sort of supernatural god can exist - but i really wish I could believe in one!

Has anyone else been through that? As in, you know it cant exist but you wish it did..?

You have to choose between science and superstition.

Would you rather your child grows up believing in magic, or would you like to take the journey of exploration with your child. The scientific explanation for Any question is always more interesting and more thought provoking than an appeal to magic, which is all religion really is

Absolam

If you're looking for someone to convince you that you should go with what you're wishing, believe in God and inculcate a sense of faith in your child, then Christianity might be a better forum to post in. If not, I'm sure a plethora of reasons not to do either will be presented here in due course

My own 2c is, do it if you want to, and don't if you don't. Whatever makes you happy.

beauf

Johnnyhpipe wrote: »

No sure of this is the right forum

Neither this or the religion one is the right forum. As both have polar opposite viewpoints and are completely entrenched in their views.

Cabaal

Akrasia wrote: »

Would you rather your child grows up believing in magic,

To be fair, believing in a organised religion isn't even magic,
For many Christian's "magic" as children would know it by wizards and the like is the work of the devil

So the question is do you want your child to discover the world and all its wounders through facts and research or would you rather they blindly accept what they are told and are thought not to question it

Peregrinus

Cabaal wrote: »

So the question is do you want your child to discover the world and all its wounders through facts and research or would you rather they blindly accept what they are told and are thought not to question it

No, that's not the question. At any rate, it's not the question the OP asks. He looks back to his own childhood encounter with religion, and wonders whether h his own child should have something similar. He doesn't characterise his own childhood introduction to religion as being taught to blindly accept what he was told and not to question it, and he does not suggest that this is what he is considering for his own child.

Michael OBrien

Johnnyhpipe wrote: »

Hi,

No sure of this is the right forum - i was raised as a catholic - as in my mam brought me to mass on christmas morning, easter sunday and whenever my granny was over so she could pretend we went every sunday. I havent been to mass in years apart from funerals/weddings. However at 34 now, with a 2 year old kid I'm feeling like I should introduce him to mass or something (anything). I consider myself a man of science and know that there no reasonable way that any sort of supernatural god can exist - but i really wish I could believe in one!

Has anyone else been through that? As in, you know it cant exist but you wish it did..?

There are alternatives to consider, if you are looking for a social structure. You might get involved in a local charity, and get your child interested in that in some way (rituals are useful). Alternatively if you don't really believe in god, then research humanism and see if there are humanist groups near you and take him there instead (perhaps when the child is a little older). You could even organise your own group locally, linked loosely with the HAI for example (HAI is the Humanist Association of Ireland).

I remember vaguely going to mass as a child, playing with toys in the pew and waiting for the big people to finish whatever they were doing so we can get a sweet at the local shop. The ritual was more relevant than the religion.
Spending time with the child is what matters, in a structured way, so the child knows that there is a plan and can look forward to it. What does not matter really is where the ritual is. There is no way a small child can comprehend religion (many adults still fail to understand it), so its just noise anyway (thankfully imo).

As for WANTING a god to exist, do you mean the god of a christian type or just some type of higher power.
While some people, even some atheists, have said that before, even if they doubt or even know that it does not (within reasonable certainty), it is important to note that this may be residual from your upbringing and not necessarily innate. Your child will probably NOT feel that need unless you OR your society (school religious indoctrination) instill it.
There is nothing wrong with living without that need. Your child will be fine without it, provided you can discuss the issues rationally and counter the indoctrination that can happen outside your immediate influence.

You can be scientific and be religious. I am a scientist and I am a practising catholic don't let people put you off introducing your child to Catholicism and striving to believe yourself, going mass and bringing your child etc. I know (and know of) many religious scientists both where I work and elsewhere including one very religious top scientist who has a good chance of being head of one of the science departments in an Irish University in the coming years.

Michael OBrien

Bryan Large Backspace wrote: »

You can be scientific and be religious. I am a scientist and I am a practising catholic don't let people put you off introducing your child to Catholicism and striving to believe yourself, going mass and bringing your child etc. I know (and know of) many religious scientists both where I work and elsewhere including one very religious top scientist who has a good chance of being head of one of the science departments in an Irish University in the coming years.

So what relationship do you see between the supernatural elements of Catholicism and science. May I ask what type of scientist are you?
While it is perfectly possible to be a scientist and a christian, it is not possible to be a christian scientist (a.k.a. creationist scientist). The issue would be that the scientific areas you study either don't conflict directly with your faith or you found a way to mentally separate the two.
For example, as I was raised catholic, we were taught evolution, albeit poorly on reflection. The CC accepts a form of theistic evolution, but the theistic part is not scientific, but faith based. This means it is still unscientific, because it incorporates supernatural elements to a scientific theory, but just not as openly so, unlike creationists views that are completely incompatible with science at a base level.

Walter H Price

OP i totally understand where your coming from with this.

My family never did the mass thing at all , and my folks though baptised catholics have always been openly atheist , they only had us baptized to keep the Grannys happy. Thankfully when me and my OH have kids we wont even have that pressure.

I don't think there is any point introducing your son to religion particularly not as an impressionable child , let him grow and discover thees thing on his own maybe it will resonate with him at some stage maybe not either way its not a big deal. He will be made aware of religion once he hits school anyway, just be open and honest if he asks why you don't go to mass etc and let him figure it out on his own.

Religion is a very personal thing , in the modern world its increasingly difficult to belive in in the face of an insurmoutable amout of evidence that contradicts the scriptures and a totally out of touch church , dont feel you have to make yourself believe in any of it or your letting him down in anyway , there is no way to force this faith , you either have it or you dont, and either way its no big deal

robindch

Johnnyhpipe wrote: »

However at 34 now, with a 2 year old kid I'm feeling like I should introduce him to mass or something (anything).

How come you're feeling this? What do you believe that going to mass could give you and your child that you couldn't find somewhere else? Is it a sense of community?

FWIW, I take my kid to church, usually a protestant one, for a carol service around christmas time, plus whatever catholic marriages and funerals happen by from time to time. She gets to see what happens inside the church and I do my best to answer whatever questions come up during or after it as fairly as possible. I don't think there's any great harm in doing any of this and she's certainly no less able to separate fact from carefully-constructed fiction either.

smacl

Johnnyhpipe wrote: »

Hi,

No sure of this is the right forum - i was raised as a catholic - as in my mam brought me to mass on christmas morning, easter sunday and whenever my granny was over so she could pretend we went every sunday. I havent been to mass in years apart from funerals/weddings. However at 34 now, with a 2 year old kid I'm feeling like I should introduce him to mass or something (anything). I consider myself a man of science and know that there no reasonable way that any sort of supernatural god can exist - but i really wish I could believe in one!

Has anyone else been through that? As in, you know it cant exist but you wish it did..?

You don't believe in God but you really wish you could? Maybe sort your own beliefs out a bit further before deciding what type of religious upbringing would be best for your child, if any. For my money, the more quality time you spend with your kids the better, and if you reckon the church fits the bill, so be it. Mine are happy little heathens like their old man and consider the merest notion of mass pretty horrific, but each to their own. For that grounding, enjoying the simple things in life kind of buzz, long walks in the countryside, on the beach or up a mountain has always worked well for mine.

sbsquarepants

I'm a bit bewildered by your post to be honest.
You say you consider yourself a man of science - you don't believe, but you really feel you should try encourage your son to?

Sorry, what?

Jimmy Bottlehead

OP, your child has the option once he's older to decide if he feels an unfulfilled space spiritually. Until then, there's no *need* to introduce religion to him.
Instead of spending 30-60 minutes a week with him in a large, opulent building chanting toward a man in robes at an altar... Why not bring him to the park? Or for a walk in the mountains? Or a museum or event suited to kids of his age?

Binding time with his dad having fun is what he'll remember fondly; not having to stay silent in a church.

Akrasia

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I'm a bit bewildered by your post to be honest.
You say you consider yourself a man of science - you don't believe, but you really feel you should try encourage your son to?

Sorry, what?

I think the OP might be struggling with the idea that somehow Faith is a virtue. That there is something noble about putting your trust and dedicating your self to something despite doubts and mystery.

This is what we were taught growing up, even if you didn't go to mass regularly, the idea that devout people are somehow morally and spiritually better than us is hard to escape

I think we need to make a conscious effort to abandon this concept. Faith is not a virtue. We should believe things in proportion to the evidence that supports it.

And I include personal relationships in this (lots of apologists try to muddy the argument by saying that it's good for a married couple to have faith in each other) It is not good to have faith that someone loves you if you have no reason to believe this. If your husband cheats on you, belittles you, beats you, steals from you and tries to dominate you, then having faith in your husbands love for you is a stupid and incredibly damaging position to take.

I believe my wife loves me, because she shows love for me in how she behaves. I don't believe Cameron Diaz loves me, because it would be mad to believe such a thing with absolutely no reason to know that she is even aware of my existence.

Faith is not a virtue. We should believe things that we have reason to believe.

smacl

Akrasia wrote: »

Faith is not a virtue. We should believe things that we have reason to believe.

Depends how you look at faith. If you think of it as acting on the basis of trust rather than understanding, it often makes sense, and is part of the basis of learning. One reason to believe something is that it comes from a trusted source, such as a parent or teacher, and this constitutes an act of faith to a large degree. Faith isn't a virtue, but it can be a useful aid to making decisions where there is a dearth of information. Personally, I consider telling young children that religious mythology is true as damaging as it is getting them into the habit of misplacing their faith. Jesus doesn't love me. Cameron Diaz doesn't love you. One's dead, the other's oblivious. It doesn't take a genius to understand this.

Faith is fine and dandy. Blind faith is open to abuse, and misplaced faith leads to problems.

Akrasia

smacl wrote: »

Depends how you look at faith. If you think of it as acting on the basis of trust rather than understanding, it often makes sense, and is part of the basis of learning. One reason to believe something is that it comes from a trusted source, such as a parent or teacher, and this constitutes an act of faith to a large degree. Faith isn't a virtue, but it can be a useful aid to making decisions where there is a dearth of information. Personally, I consider telling young children that religious mythology is true as damaging as it is getting them into the habit of misplacing their faith. Jesus doesn't love me. Cameron Diaz doesn't love you. One's dead, the other's oblivious. It doesn't take a genius to understand this.

Faith is fine and dandy. Blind faith is open to abuse, and misplaced faith leads to problems.

There is always a fuzzy line defining what faith means. I think faith is belief absent evidence. Trust is not synonymous with faith because trust requires a basis. (or it should). I trust you because I know you, or because someone I know trusts you, or because I trust the legal system will work to enforce our contract.

Trust can be given in earnest if one side betrays the other.

Trust isn't a virtue, it's a contract. Two people trust each other to fulfill their side of the bargain.

Faith is skipping reason straight to belief. People should use reason to decide if their faith or trust is well placed

smacl

Akrasia wrote: »

Trust is not synonymous with faith because trust requires a basis. I trust you because I know you, or because someone I know trusts you

Ok, so lets say that as per the opening post, the person in question is a priest who is trusted by your parents whom you trust. On the basis of the above, what the priest says is reasonable as they became a trusted source once they have been introduced as such by a primary trusted source (parents). Young children have to act in faith on a regular basis until such time as they acquire knowledge and skills to act more on the basis of reason. Even then we all still make value judgements from time to time on the basis of good will and trust.

I think the problem many people see with the OP taking their young child to a church is that by doing so they are implicitly endorsing what the church has to say as trustworthy, which is clearly the wrong thing to do if they do not believe in God themselves. Faith starts with trust.

Akrasia

smacl wrote: »

Ok, so lets say that as per the opening post, the person in question is a priest who is trusted by your parents whom you trust. On the basis of the above, what the priest says is reasonable as they became a trusted source once they have been introduced as such by a primary trusted source (parents). Young children have to act in faith on a regular basis until such time as they acquire knowledge and skills to act more on the basis of reason. Even then we all still make value judgements from time to time on the basis of good will and trust.

I think the problem many people see with the OP taking their young child to a church is that by doing so they are implicitly endorsing what the church has to say as trustworthy, which is clearly the wrong thing to do if they do not believe in God themselves. Faith starts with trust.

Yeah. In this case, it's a breach of trust to endorse something that you yourself think cannot possibly be true.

If a believer passes on the faith to a child, then they are doing so in good faith. If a non believer tries to convince a child to believe in god, there is an ethical issue there. Some people feel that they have an obligation to do this, for tradition, or culture, or some other reason, but I think people ought to respect others enough to not lie to them.

Kids trust their parents and authority figures. Those people have a duty to be responsible and not abuse that trust.