Running away

OOnegative

Oooh another one on the Amsterdam train, PISS UP...... Happy New Year E!!

skyblue46

OOnegative wrote: »

Oooh another one on the Amsterdam train, PISS UP...... Happy New Year E!!

There's 4 of the 2017 ladies and my good self.. piss up doesn't start to describe it ;-)

scotindublin

Another very solid year E; those bloody 10ks are a bug bear of mine aswell they just seem to be an awkward distance to nail.

Good luck with everything in 2020; Amsterdam sounds like a great trip in the making.

C

ReeReeG

ariana` wrote: »

AND FINALLY 2020...

THE goal
Nail a 10k... low 47 perhaps but mostly i just want to nail it and i'll only know what that is when (not if ) i do it!!

Coming back to this having seen your post in the 2020 goals thread... am I allowed to say I think you're aiming too low in this?? We have very close 5k PBs and very similar marathon goals so I'd expect you to be gunning for sub 45 as well?? I get the wanting to feel like you've nailed it but I dunno... would you feel like you've nailed something if you could actually do better?


I feel like this is a mean post but honestly just wondering about the thought process!

ariana`

ReeReeG wrote: »

Coming back to this having seen your post in the 2020 goals thread... am I allowed to say I think you're aiming too low in this?? We have very close 5k PBs and very similar marathon goals so I'd expect you to be gunning for sub 45 as well?? I get the wanting to feel like you've nailed it but I dunno... would you feel like you've nailed something if you could actually do better?


I feel like this is a mean post but honestly just wondering about the thought process!

Thanks. These are the types of posts we need more of so don't feel mean!

I think my track record with them is so poor V that I've built it up in my head. I just seem to flop every time at around 6-7k even when I start conservatively.

You're absolutely right of course and maybe if I can get to the point of breaking 48 mins I will be able to think beyond it but at the moment I've only broken 50 mins once and only just barely by a few seconds. It's a really poor showing considering my 5k track record.

By the way so you know anything about the course for Craughwell 10k? I've only done the 10m.

Swashbuckler

If I was to give you any advice here I would say target a block of 10k races, not just one.

ReeReeG

ariana` wrote: »

I think my track record with them is so poor V that I've built it up in my head. I just seem to flop every time at around 6-7k even when I start conservatively.

Aha. I noticed before I always fell away from my target in the 4th mile (so I guess around the same point) so I decided to start making that mile my most focused one. Not that I'm by any means great at that now (exhibit A: rock'n'roll 10k :rolleyes: ) but practice would definitely help. Even if you postpone the flop to mile 5 the first couple of times :pac:



I did Craughwell 10k last year if you wanna look on my Strava. It was grand, just the little switchback was the only annoying part, and a bit of a drag in the last km or so, which probably isn't that bad but you're so tired by then it feels rough! I signed up for the 10 mile the other day actually, you can give me course tips on that one

Bluesquare

Looking forward to following you as you smash those goals !! Have a great 2020!

ariana`

ReeReeG wrote: »

Aha. I noticed before I always fell away from my target in the 4th mile (so I guess around the same point) so I decided to start making that mile my most focused one. Not that I'm by any means great at that now (exhibit A: rock'n'roll 10k :rolleyes: ) but practice would definitely help. Even if you postpone the flop to mile 5 the first couple of times :pac:



I did Craughwell 10k last year if you wanna look on my Strava. It was grand, just the little switchback was the only annoying part, and a bit of a drag in the last km or so, which probably isn't that bad but you're so tired by then it feels rough! I signed up for the 10 mile the other day actually, you can give me course tips on that one

I'll definitely try to use that strategy V. Thanks.

I did the 10m in 2018 if u want to so some Strava stalking. I remember thinking it's a very fair course, not flat but not spectacularly hilly either.

ariana`

Swashbuckler wrote: »

If I was to give you any advice here I would say target a block of 10k races, not just one.

That's the plan. I'll be doing local/low key races that I can sign up to on the day or the week before if they suit. Definitely hoping to get a good few in though.

Swashbuckler

Also meant to say, it's not unusual for mile 4 of the 10k to be the worst. You're not alone there. It's always the toughest mile for me. You're in the peak of the depths of 10k pain and still a fair way from home. That's where the race pace specific sessions help. Running hard on tired body and legs.

coogy

Swashbuckler wrote: »

If I was to give you any advice here I would say target a block of 10k races, not just one.

This is an idea I was toying with for later on the year!

coogy

E, great to hear you're considering Amsterdam. This race is on my radar for 2021!!

Swashbuckler

coogy wrote:

This is an idea I was toying with for later on the year!

It's probably the best approach for every distance up to 10k. If you look at any of the 1Mile, 800m, 1500m, 5k or 10k lads on here most of them have success targeting more than one race. Very hard to get it right on the first attempt especially with 5k and lower.

ariana`

OOnegative wrote: »

Oooh another one on the Amsterdam train, PISS UP...... Happy New Year E!!

I'll be looking forward to meeting up B! You'll have to do a recce to make sure you have the best spots picked out for us :P

scotindublin wrote: »

Another very solid year E; those bloody 10ks are a bug bear of mine aswell they just seem to be an awkward distance to nail.

Good luck with everything in 2020; Amsterdam sounds like a great trip in the making.

C

Thanks C. I'm kind of glad it's not just me

coogy wrote: »

E, great to hear you're considering Amsterdam. This race is on my radar for 2021!!

I'll let you know how it goes for sure

Swashbuckler wrote: »

It's probably the best approach for every distance up to 10k. If you look at any of the 1Mile, 800m, 1500m, 5k or 10k lads on here most of them have success targeting more than one race. Very hard to get it right on the first attempt especially with 5k and lower.

How long would you suggest between races P? I did 5 weekly 5ks last year, i got a course PB in the first and PB'd for each of the following 4 races with fairly significant pbs each week (5s, 28s, 8s, 10s respectively). Based on that experience i definitely agree that race experience helps quite a lot. But my overall mileage really fell for those weeks between mini-tapers and mini-recovery. And i wonder when/if too much of a good thing becomes a bad thing

Baby75

we will pin down that trail race for sure and have a great day out just running and not worrying about finishing times I think we are nearly there though

Swashbuckler

ariana` wrote:

How long would you suggest between races P? I did 5 weekly 5ks last year, i got a course PB in the first and PB'd for each of the following 4 races with fairly significant pbs each week (5s, 28s, 8s, 10s respectively). Based on that experience i definitely agree that race experience helps quite a lot. But my overall mileage really fell for those weeks between mini-tapers and mini-recovery. And i wonder when/if too much of a good thing becomes a bad thing

Yeah I get you. I'm not willing to sacrafice consistency and mileage this year so I probably won't really taper for a lot of my races. It's one of the benefits of my sessions moving to a sunday in that I'll treat a Sunday race as a session and assuming I feel OK, will still do the long run the next day (Monday).

It's a hard one E coz everyone is different. I see lads racing very often and they seem OK. Some people will have a tougher recovery. But if I was targeting a bunch of 10k races in a period of say three months I might run three or four. I don't think my body would handle weekly ones and I know I'd get race fatigue (mentally). 5k is a little different as you have faster recovery, plus the fine tuning really helps.

For example, if I stick to 10k stuff and I want to run a batch of races in the summer I'd probably look at one in June, two in July and one in August. I would fit races I want to do into my plan rather than try to put together a plan and then find races, if you get me.

I'm a little different though. If I was in good 5k/10k shape all year I'd be happy. I'm not overly concerned at peaking for multiple distances throughout the year.

skyblue46

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Yeah I get you. I'm not willing to sacrafice consistency and mileage this year so I probably won't really taper for a lot of my races. It's one of the benefits of my sessions moving to a sunday in that I'll treat a Sunday race as a session and assuming I feel OK, will still do the long run the next day (Monday).

It's a hard one E coz everyone is different. I see lads racing very often and they seem OK. Some people will have a tougher recovery. But if I was targeting a bunch of 10k races in a period of say three months I might run three or four. I don't think my body would handle weekly ones and I know I'd get race fatigue (mentally). 5k is a little different as you have faster recovery, plus the fine tuning really helps.

For example, if I stick to 10k stuff and I want to run a batch of races in the summer I'd probably look at one in June, two in July and one in August. I would fit races I want to do into my plan rather than try to put together a plan and then find races, if you get me.

I'm a little different though. If I was in good 5k/10k shape all year I'd be happy. I'm not overly concerned at peaking for multiple distances throughout the year.

That's a decent plan for the shape of your week P. Not sure I could do long runs on a Monday! :eek:

I think a race every 3 weeks or so is the best bet if they are being done mid plan alright. If they are being done at the end of a specific plan and before starting a new one I wouldn't see any problem with condensing them a little more.

Swashbuckler

skyblue46 wrote:

That's a decent plan for the shape of your week P. Not sure I could do long runs on a Monday!

It did cross my mind this morning as I ran through the wind and rain just how mad am I doing this on a day that's stereotypically ****e for everyone who has to work for a living, never mind it being first day back after two weeks off!

skyblue46 wrote:

I think a race every 3 weeks or so is the best bet if they are being done mid plan alright. If they are being done at the end of a specific plan and before starting a new one I wouldn't see any problem with condensing them a little more.

Good point. I have had success in the past racing two successive weeks.

I'm going to be taking a bit of a holistic view on my training this year so I won't really have a beginning and end of any plan as such. I'll race when I want without over thinking pbs or peaking performance.
Subject to change

skyblue46

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Good point. I have had success in the past racing two successive weeks.

I'm going to be taking a bit of a holistic view on my training this year so I won't really have a beginning and end of any plan as such. I'll race when I want without over thinking pbs or peaking performance.
Subject to change

Ah yeah I know your 'non plan' plan. It was more for E. If she did a 10k plan then raced regularly over a few weeks ,whilst keeping relatively rested and fresh, before then embarking on a new training plan it could work well.

Swashbuckler

skyblue46 wrote:

Ah yeah I know your 'non plan' plan. It was more for E. If she did a 10k plan then raced regularly over a few weeks ,whilst keeping relatively rested and fresh, before then embarking on a new training plan it could work well.

Yeah that's probably not a bad idea. I'm always a little on the conservative side when it comes to advising people about regular racing.
That being said I wouldn't disagree with what you're saying in terms of not pushing the envelope too much between races.

ariana`

skyblue46 wrote: »

Ah yeah I know your 'non plan' plan. It was more for E. If she did a 10k plan then raced regularly over a few weeks ,whilst keeping relatively rested and fresh, before then embarking on a new training plan it could work well.

Thanks for the input P & S. I'm struggling to pin down anything at the moment. There are 2 10ks in March that are convenient for me and I should be able to start at least 1 of them but possibly both, they are 2 weeks apart. But aside from those i'm drawing a blank, last year i did a 10k in April and June, both of which i will miss this year as they clash with family commitments. It doesn't help that i'll be away 5 consecutive weekends mid June - mid July and after that it will be all roads lead to Amsterdam so the whole 10k thing may not pan out very well for me Late April/May would be ideal so hopefully something will pop up.

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I'm going to be taking a bit of a holistic view on my training this year so I won't really have a beginning and end of any plan as such. I'll race when I want without over thinking pbs or peaking performance.
Subject to change

I'd love to take this approach, it would be my ideal rather than following a specific 12/14 week plan and targeting a specific race. I think it's possibly an approach more suited to someone who is coached though? I'm not sure i'd have the confidence to plan my own training in this way. I'm doing a 2 week free trial with a coach soon so i'll be interested to see how i find that experience.

AuldManKing

Regarding targeting a block of races - I wouldn't target 5 in a row going forward - you'll find 5k PB's harder to come by the faster you get - this might leave you frustrated!
You could target weekly races alright, but dont taper for some of them or run them differently (faster 1st mile / slower 1st mile etc) - but we'd all like to do that but its just not realistic

I'm trying to move away from target races (for 10k and shorter) and trying to build a level of fitness/speed to carry me through a 'competitive period' - a 6-8week period of racing at a good level.

The reason for this is that I have had 'Goal Races' where I trained really hard for and didn't race in between and my race just Stank.
South Dublin 10k last year, Dunshaughlin the previous year, Jingle Bells in December to name 3 of the top of my head.

Last summer I ran 3 5k's over a 6 week block and enjoyed every one of them, ran well in them all and the fastest was my last one. (slowest was the middle one).
So that has thought me a lesson regarding targeting races as opposed to time periods.

You may be in a different position to me, and you've a long way to go to Amsterdam Marathon.
Focusing on speed initially is a great idea, realistically by July, you'll be into Marathon training, so racing shorter stuff may not be beneficial.
Getting a few shorter races prior to this would be great - say May-June - plenty on then - not having a real specific target race takes some of the pressure away too!

Anyway - rambling post over:)

MY BAD

ariana` wrote: »

I'll be looking forward to meeting up B! You'll have to do a recce to make sure you have the best spots picked out for us :P



Thanks C. I'm kind of glad it's not just me



I'll let you know how it goes for sure



How long would you suggest between races P? I did 5 weekly 5ks last year, i got a course PB in the first and PB'd for each of the following 4 races with fairly significant pbs each week (5s, 28s, 8s, 10s respectively). Based on that experience i definitely agree that race experience helps quite a lot. But my overall mileage really fell for those weeks between mini-tapers and mini-recovery. And i wonder when/if too much of a good thing becomes a bad thing

If you don't mind me jumping in here I can give you my take on it. I think alot of distance runners underestimate the 5k race. How many times do you hear them say its just a 5km? In my opinion anyone who says this isn't racing. The 5k is hard really hard and specific training isn't any easier. If I was to advise anyone looking for a summer PB I'd say spend a 6 to 8 weeks on general 5 to 10k training then hit a 5k race. Don't worry too much about the time, run on feel and get the body used to the pain and discomfort of 5ks. Then put the head down and get more specific with the 5k training for another 4 weeks. Before racing the 5k distance again. Try and target decent one too. You should see a big improvement on the previous race. Three weeks later target a really good 5km but keep up the training between races.

ariana`

AuldManKing wrote: »

Regarding targeting a block of races - I wouldn't target 5 in a row going forward - you'll find 5k PB's harder to come by the faster you get - this might leave you frustrated!
You could target weekly races alright, but dont taper for some of them or run them differently (faster 1st mile / slower 1st mile etc) - but we'd all like to do that but its just not realistic

Yes, i expect the ole 5k pbs will get harder to comeby. I still remember vividly running 25:0x and having to wait nearly 2 years to eventually dip under 25 mins... running sub 23 last year superseded my expectations but i believe i have a little more in me though i may to train & race smarter to get it including being more selective in my race choice. I'd love to run under 22 someday, i'd retire from 5ks then i think :pac:

AuldManKing wrote: »

I'm trying to move away from target races (for 10k and shorter) and trying to build a level of fitness/speed to carry me through a 'competitive period' - a 6-8week period of racing at a good level.

The reason for this is that I have had 'Goal Races' where I trained really hard for and didn't race in between and my race just Stank.
South Dublin 10k last year, Dunshaughlin the previous year, Jingle Bells in December to name 3 of the top of my head.

Last summer I ran 3 5k's over a 6 week block and enjoyed every one of them, ran well in them all and the fastest was my last one. (slowest was the middle one).
So that has thought me a lesson regarding targeting races as opposed to time periods.

You may be in a different position to me, and you've a long way to go to Amsterdam Marathon.
Focusing on speed initially is a great idea, realistically by July, you'll be into Marathon training, so racing shorter stuff may not be beneficial.
Getting a few shorter races prior to this would be great - say May-June - plenty on then - not having a real specific target race takes some of the pressure away too!

Anyway - rambling post over

Thanks AMK, i'm love ramblings, indeed any input on my log is always welcome And what you're saying is definitely along the lines of the way i'm thinking so its good to know i'm of the same thinking as a runner of your caliber :P

eyrie

I like the sound of your plans for this year E, and will be looking forward to seeing how it all unfolds! I hope you manage to find a few more 10ks that suit because I'd say you have buckets to come off the time at that distance so hope you get a good crack at it. Like V said earlier I've no doubt you could be aiming for a significantly lower time, but I get where you're coming from in terms of wanting to get a good race with a solid time down and then onwards from there, I'd be inclined to share that approach myself. Good luck with it!

Swashbuckler

ariana` wrote:

I'd love to take this approach, it would be my ideal rather than following a specific 12/14 week plan and targeting a specific race. I think it's possibly an approach more suited to someone who is coached though? I'm not sure i'd have the confidence to plan my own training in this way. I'm doing a 2 week free trial with a coach soon so i'll be interested to see how i find that experience.

Yep definitely more suited to someone coached or at least someone with experience of being coached.

For me it's more manageable in that right now anyway, I'm not overly concerned with smashing it. I figure consistent weeks, with some headscratching along the way will make me a better runner.

I'm getting a little more confident in structuring training. That being said, if the time was right I'd go back to being coached.

ariana`

January 2020 - Week 1

Dec 30th - Jan 5th
Monday: Nothing.

Tuesday: A few squeezed miles to finish out the year
4.5m with 6 * 100m strides, avg HR 146bpm

Wednesday: NYD Run
6.26m @ 9:41min/m, avg HR 148 (creeping above aerobic for the last 20 mins, need more discipline on the easy runs again)

Thursday: 6.25m @ 10:16min/m, avg HR 137bpm (better)

Friday: Nothing.

Saturday: Nothing

Sunday: 9m including LT intervals (did these off HR)
10min @ 8:03min/m
10min @ 8:11min/m
8min @ 8:08min/m

Total: 26.2m

January 2020 - Week 2

Jan 6th - Jan 12th

Monday: 6m @ 10:19min/m, avg HR 137bpm

Tuesday: 6.6m @ 10:31min/m, avg HR 138bpm

Wednesday: Rest

Thursday: 5.75m @ 10min/m, avg hr 141bpm

Friday: No running, 45 min spin class.

Saturday: 10m @ 8:49min/m (Easy Tempo ), avg hr 155bpm - admittedly too fast for a LR but i had a very light week so no harm done i hope. While able to hold a conversation this was in no way easy but damn it felt good to be working while still very much in control, one of my favourite runs in a while and yet on paper it was probably complete junk miles :cool:

Sunday: 5.75m @ 10:20min/m, avg hr 143bpm

Total: 34m

Feel like i'm lacking a bit of mojo at the moment, not at crisis point but just managing to tick over with no real drive/love for it, been a bit flat for a good while now to be honest.

Swashbuckler

Is there anything race or target wise that would motivate you even if its off the wall like some mad trail run or something?

Also do you ever train with people? If you're anything like me you grab the runs when you can and can't really plan ahead that much.

shotgunmcos

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Is there anything race or target wise that would motivate you even if its off the wall like some mad trail run or something?

Also do you ever train with people? If you're anything like me you grab the runs when you can and can't really plan ahead that much.

I was going to suggest similar.

1. Run up a large hill. One with a view. Stand at the top and savour that you ran up it. Take in 360 view if you can. Spot a road, a tree, a steeple, a school anything close to a route you run. Next time you run a route close to it, find it. Stop and look back towards the hill and savour that moment you stood on top of it again..

2. A little run with one of your favourite people. If they are not runners, bonus

3. Do a short race with no watch. Run on feel, run free and empty the tank..

4. Run every route you did last week, backwards this week

5. Read one of your own brilliant race reports before a run