Brexit: The Last Stand (No name calling)

Grayson

This got nasty fast.



https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/31/future-of-gibraltar-at-stake-in-brexit-negotiations

The EU has put the future of Gibraltar at stake in the coming Brexit negotiations, effectively backing Spain in its centuries-old dispute with the UK over the British overseas territory.

After lobbying from Spanish diplomats, a clause has been inserted in the EU’s draft Brexit negotiating guidelines that appears to allow Spain to exclude Gibraltar from any transitional single market access arrangement or future trade deal with the UK if it is not satisfied with the status of the territory.

This suggests that unless Britain is willing to let its citizens on “the rock” be subject to an inferior economic future than those in the UK, the EU has effectively handed the Spanish government a veto on Britain’s entire future relationship with the bloc.

please helpThank YOU

England/English people who Voted for Brexit and Prime Minister Theresa May , Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage. In My Opinion are all Obnoxious .In My Opinion Ireland the Irish People must Boycotting Goods from England.

elefant

A Little Pony wrote: »

Her Majesty The Queen needs to have a say in these negotiations. A charm offensive required and someone they will admire and respect. Its not easy to respect our awful UK government politicians.

I thought the UK needed to be saved from the unelected?

Panrich

Grayson wrote: »

This got nasty fast.



https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/31/future-of-gibraltar-at-stake-in-brexit-negotiations

It's becoming clear that the EU is in no mood to be accommodating over this divorce. This will be a difficult time for Ireland and I wonder what sort of plans are being hatched to help us as an EU member like they are doing for Spain here. I'd be skeptical that we'll get many concessions or vetos.

please helpThank YOU

I am now from today on Boycotting Goods from England.

Grayson

Panrich wrote: »

It's becoming clear that the EU is in no mood to be accommodating over this divorce. This will be a difficult time for Ireland and I wonder what sort of plans are being hatched to help us as an EU member like they are doing for Spain here. I'd be skeptical that we'll get many concessions or vetos.

I'd say we'd get money and assurances of financial support if NI leaves the UK.

Unpossible

elefant wrote: »

I thought the UK needed to be saved from the unelected?

No no no.
Unelected & Nobility/Royalty = good
Unelected & Commoner/Non-British = Bad and undemocratic

seamus

Unpossible wrote: »

Elected & Non-British = Bad and undemocratic

FYP.

steddyeddy

Grayson wrote: »

This got nasty fast.



https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/31/future-of-gibraltar-at-stake-in-brexit-negotiations

This effectively amounts to the EU siding with Spain in the Gibraltar dispute.

Junkyard Tom

Panrich wrote: »

This will be a difficult time for Ireland and I wonder what sort of plans are being hatched to help us as an EU member like they are doing for Spain here.

Presuming Britain experiences some hardship it'd be good for the EU's credibility if Ireland emerges from Brexit usncathed because it'll prove that being in 'the club' is beneficial.

Maximus Alexander

steddyeddy wrote: »

This effectively amounts to the EU siding with Spain in the Gibraltar dispute.

Don't know why anyone would be surprised about the EU siding with an EU country in a dispute with a non-EU country.

Grayson

steddyeddy wrote: »

This effectively amounts to the EU siding with Spain in the Gibraltar dispute.

The EU don't have to side with anyone. Each member of the EU has the same power as any of the others in this. If Spain say that's what they want, then that's on the EU agenda. If we decided we'd only agree to an FTA if the UK painted Buckingham palace green, then that's part of agreement.

Junkyard Tom

Grayson wrote: »

If we decided we'd only agree to an FTA if the UK painted Buckingham palace green, then that's part of agreement.

Which essentially means Ireland has far more of a say on what happens to the six counties than an awful lot of unionists would like. Interesting times ahead.

Fratton Fred

steddyeddy wrote: »

This effectively amounts to the EU siding with Spain in the Gibraltar dispute.

its the eu making crass threats of their own.

steddyeddy

Fratton Fred wrote: »

its the eu making crass threats of their own.

I wouldn't put it past them Fred. They weren't particularly nice to Ireland.

please helpThank YOU

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

I am now from today on Boycotting Goods from England.

Does that include the language?

Billy86

A Little Pony wrote: »

Her Majesty The Queen needs to have a say in these negotiations. A charm offensive required and someone they will admire and respect. Its not easy to respect our awful UK government politicians.

As much as I don't mind Liz all that much and think she and her two grandsons are pretty fine PR figures (Harry had all that stuff as a teen, but he might be the best thing to happen to how the royal family are viewed since his mother over the last several years), the fact is they have f*** all sway or power in issues like this.

I doubt the input of Philipe VI or Carl XVI Gustaf would mean much of anything to be British people in this matter, and the same is true in reverse.

FrancieBrady

Billy86 wrote: »

I doubt the input of Philipe VI or Carl XVI Gustaf would mean much of anything to be British people in this matter, and the same is true in reverse.

They could have a big jousting match for Gibraltar? Sky Sports would be all over that!

Billy86

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They could have a big jousting match for Gibraltar? Sky Sports would be all over that!

It's either that or "Trial By Football" though something tells me the UK would be less likely to agree to that one.

FrancieBrady

Billy86 wrote: »

It's either that or "Trial By Football" though something tells me the UK would be less likely to agree to that one.

They are gonna bore the EU in submission???

Junkyard Tom

If 96% of Gibraltarians voted to remain within the EU wouldn't there be a possibility that +50% would vote in a referendum to reunify with Spain, maybe as an autonomous region?

BBDBB

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

If 96% of Gibraltarians voted to remain within the EU wouldn't there be a possibility that +50% would vote in a referendum to reunify with Spain, maybe as an autonomous region?

An interesting question in light of the 99% referendum result a couple of years previously to remain part of the U.K. Rather than a joint uk/Spanish government

A Dub in Glasgo

BBDBB wrote: »

An interesting question in light of the 99% referendum result a couple of years previously to remain part of the U.K. Rather than a joint uk/Spanish government

There has been a material change since then

BBDBB

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

There has been a material change since then

Yes, but would it be enough to swing a vote from 99% to 51%?
That's a big ask especially considering the most pressing issue on the mind of voters in Gibraltar is most likely to be the freedom of movement. How much of a change do you think we will see in that regard?

In the light of NI/ROI being a high priority for a soft border I can see Gibraltar and Spain being given a similar kind of arrangement, in which case a large swing in public opinion is unlikely

please helpThank YOU

I am Very angry of what the English have done by voting for Brexit. Ireland is trouble and most of the people who I have spoken to about Brexit feel the same way .

A Dub in Glasgo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

There has been a material change since then

Given the choice of being part of the UK outside of the EU or being in the EU as part of Spain, I expect that most of the 99% will vote to remain part of the UK.

BBDBB

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

I am Very angry of what the English have done by voting for Brexit. Ireland is trouble and most of the people who I have spoken to about Brexit feel the same way .

Why are you angry?
Who are you angry with?

A Dub in Glasgo

BBDBB wrote: »

Yes, but would it be enough to swing a vote from 99% to 51%?
That's a big ask especially considering the most pressing issue on the mind of voters in Gibraltar is most likely to be the freedom of movement. How much of a change do you think we will see in that regard?

In the light of NI/ROI being a high priority for a soft border I can see Gibraltar and Spain being given a similar kind of arrangement, in which case a large swing in public opinion is unlikely

Deleted User wrote: »

Given the choice of being part of the UK outside of the EU or being in the EU as part of Spain, I expect that most of the 99% will vote to remain part of the UK.

I have no real idea if there the British in Gibraltar vote to stay in the UK (in fact I had no idea they were part of the UK anyway) or rejoin Spain

A Dub in Glasgo

BBDBB wrote: »

Why are you angry?
Who are you angry with?

because Ireland is in trouble?

the English?

4068ac1elhodqr

BBDBB wrote: »

Why are you angry?
Who are you angry with?

Maybe he/she is angry with the same thing as the Trump protestors: democracy and/or it's processes?

BBDBB

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

I have no real idea if there the British in Gibraltar vote to stay in the UK (in fact I had no idea they were part of the UK anyway) or rejoin Spain

No one does for sure, but the pro uk stance in Gibraltar is very very strong

The point you made re a material change is key though

Whilst it's great for the media to highlight the change, empahsising the changes being in the worst possible extreme. Eg a simple fact about the relationship between trade and security being portrayed as a threat yesterday. The reality is that both sides really want and need as minimum an actual change as possible, just enough so it looks different but I doubt you will see seismic change in a decades time.

We are seeing a bit of posturing with what's happened in the last few days, ultimately pragmatism will win out.

One questioni would like to ask you is re Nicola sturgeons letter, what's your view? I think she has played her hand extremely well up to now but may be overplaying her hand with this second referendum letter?

BBDBB

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

because Ireland is in trouble?

the English?

Come on, I can read as well as you can, but I was hoping for some expansion on the reasoning and clarification on who amongst the 60 million population of the U.K. Was the target of the anger

buried

BBDBB wrote: »

Come on, I can read as well as you can, but I was hoping for some expansion on the reasoning and clarification on who amongst the 60 million population of the U.K. Was the target of the anger

Could be Rupert Murdoch, the Australian media tycoon who has spent the last near 40 years pushing a anti EU agenda onto ordinary British folk through his base gibberish rag "newspapers".

BBDBB

buried wrote: »

Could be Rupert Murdoch, the Australian media tycoon who has spent the last near 40 years pushing a anti EU agenda onto ordinary British folk through his base gibberish rag "newspapers".

Possible, but sophisticated reasoning, not all his newspapers were rags, his cleverness was to adapt his bias and skewed reporting to suit the audience,
The times readers needed to have a reasoned explanation with evidence to support the anti eu agenda, whereas at the other extreme the sun readers just need to know how much bigger her tits will be away from the EU

A Dub in Glasgo

BBDBB wrote: »

One questioni would like to ask you is re Nicola sturgeons letter, what's your view? I think she has played her hand extremely well up to now but may be overplaying her hand with this second referendum letter?

The letter was promised after the Scottish Parliament voted on Tuesday (it was always going to be after the Brexit letter) so no great surprise. The folk complaining about the stage managed sofa signature ignore the stage managed desk signature from May.

In essence, I have no problem with the letter

First Up

BBDBB wrote:

In the light of NI/ROI being a high priority for a soft border I can see Gibraltar and Spain being given a similar kind of arrangement, in which case a large swing in public opinion is unlikely

I wouldn't count on it. Crossing from Spain to Gib (and vice versa) is taking 2+ hours these days. Both sides playing silly buggers from what I hear.

please helpThank YOU

BBDBB wrote: »

Why are you angry?
Who are you angry with?

I was in York City England the week of Brexit Referendum and the nite of the Results . and I asked people why the voted to leave Europe . The people who I spoken to the where all Very angry say we have to many Foreigners and the took all there Jobs . We cant get to see a Doctor. I said What about the over a Million Foreign born people from India/Pakistan that is not Europe. By the English voting to leave Europe For Every Action There is Opposite Reaction the did not care about the people of Ireland North and South. This is History Repeating Itself like England give us the Great Irish Famine now we have Brexit.

please helpThank YOU

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

because Ireland is in trouble?

the English?

Yes to all two .

indioblack

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

Yes to all two .

I'm from England. Are you angry with me?

please helpThank YOU

indioblack wrote: »

I'm from England. Are you angry with me?

Did you vote to leave Europe Brexit?

indioblack

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

Did you vote to leave Europe Brexit?

No.

Capt'n Midnight

A side note

The UK is more into GMO and certain bee killing pesticides than the EU we can expect divergence there.

This may make it harder for UK farmers to command a premium price in exports to the EU.

It's not too long ago that the national herd was wiped out because of foot and mouth. Brand GB may not be as strong as they'd like.

please helpThank YOU

indioblack wrote: »

No.

No Problem with you. My Problem is with the people in England who voted to leave Europe.

indioblack

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

No Problem with you. My Problem is with the people in England who voted to leave Europe.

OK, thanks.

BBDBB

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

The letter was promised after the Scottish Parliament voted on Tuesday (it was always going to be after the Brexit letter) so no great surprise. The folk complaining about the stage managed sofa signature ignore the stage managed desk signature from May.

In essence, I have no problem with the letter

Fair enough
I think it's the first mistake she's made, up til now, she has played a blinder, I don't object to Scottish independence if that's what the majority want. I do think it's a bad idea at the moment as I know the infrastructure isn't in place and the current policies are based upon support from Westminster which in practical and financial terms would be gone if Scotland had independence

Not a surprise in the sense of being delivered as was promised, but in terms of her maintaining Scotland's independence as a hot topic I'm wondering if it mistimed. Firstly it was before the EU had responded, there may have been value in waiting, see what the EU say and use that
Secondly if she knows the answer from May is " now is not the time" why deliver it now when it will inevitably have to compete for media coverage with the cut and thrust of the U.K./EU posturing, give it week and they both go quiet as they prepare and the media go mad for this added complication to the negotiation
Thirdly, and I know this us an impossible one to judge exactly, if she was to get the referendum does she have the support to win when no one knows how the UK will look in two years time

As for the photos, most leaders defer this kind if thing to some kind of media expert, it's all choreographed manipulation, studied and predicted and prepared for so both are as guilty

4068ac1elhodqr

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

A side note

The UK is more into GMO and certain bee killing pesticides than the EU we can expect divergence there.

This may make it harder for UK farmers to command a premium price in exports to the EU.

Aren't Monsanto & Bayern (German) about to merge, not sure if they like bees and stuff. The UK could probably sell to China where there is a great appetite. Powdered and packed stuff not time-sensitive so suitable for 8wk shipping.

First Up

First Up wrote: »

I wouldn't count on it. Crossing from Spain to Gib (and vice versa) is taking 2+ hours these days. Both sides playing silly buggers from what I hear.

Spain has been making that border crossing as difficult as possible for at least the past 50 years, I remember Franco closing it in the late 1960s in an attempt to force Gibraltar's hands on the issue of sovereignty.

BBDBB

First Up wrote: »

I wouldn't count on it. Crossing from Spain to Gib (and vice versa) is taking 2+ hours these days. Both sides playing silly buggers from what I hear.

I hear what you are saying, I'm not sure a border dispute in the med will be considered reasonable cause to derail the negotiation on its own, I think both sides will be told/urged to stop playing silly buggers and be more conciliatory.
Once it's all signed and sealed, then yes they will probably be back at the friction tactics

BBDBB

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

I was in York City England the week of Brexit Referendum and the nite of the Results . and I asked people why the voted to leave Europe . The people who I spoken to the where all Very angry say we have to many Foreigners and the took all there Jobs . We cant get to see a Doctor. I said What about the over a Million Foreign born people from India/Pakistan that is not Europe. By the English voting to leave Europe For Every Action There is Opposite Reaction the did not care about the people of Ireland North and South. This is History Repeating Itself like England give us the Great Irish Famine now we have Brexit.

What about those who voted for Brexit for other reasons ? If the reasoning for voting to leave doesn't match the ones you describe above, do those people deserve your anger?

Not sure I see the comparison with the great famine. Anger about that I can understand, but I don't consider voting in a referendum the same as deliberate starvation and essentially genocide to be on the same level

indioblack

Two of my workmates, one Polish, one Romanian, have quizzed me about Brexit. They seek certainty in a process where there isn't enough information to give it. Except that there will be a price to be paid in the short term. As with the referendum 40 odd years ago on whether Britain continued it's membership of the EEC, there are "experts" from both sides who are probably only a little better informed than I am.
So it's no wonder some people feel anxious about the long term effects.
It's going to be an interesting two years - with political games and maneuverings from either side to gain advantage over the other.
As is often said, a week is a long time in politics - I wonder how it will all look in the next year to eighteen months. It would be unlikely if all of the main characters in this game will remain in place.
There might even be a grovelling u-turn - little can be ruled out.