Brexit: The Last Stand (No name calling)

Nate--IRL--

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Yes arrogant in thinking Ireland should be on their side.

The island was originally Spain's, so I can see how it's a bit of a sore point for them.

It's not an island.

Nate

A Dub in Glasgo

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

It's not an island.

Nate

You are right, it is part of Spain rather than an island. A bit like Dover being given to the Spanish a few hundred years ago as part of some peace treaty and Spain still holding it and England wanting it back

A Dub in Glasgo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

You are right, it is part of Spain rather than an island. A bit like Dover being given to the Spanish a few hundred years ago as part of some peace treaty and Spain still holding it and England wanting it back

A bit like Ceuta being taken by the Spanish a few hundred years ago as part of some peace treaty and Spain still holding it and Morocco wanting it bac.

A Dub in Glasgo

Deleted User wrote: »

A bit like Ceuta being taken by the Spanish a few hundred years ago as part of some peace treaty and Spain still holding it and Morocco wanting it bac.

Yes and that is not relevant to the EU / UK negotiations

A Dub in Glasgo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Yes and that is not relevant to the EU / UK negotiations

but it IS relevant to the Spanish position on Gibraltar and always will be.

Enzokk

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I can't believe he was taken seriously enough to warrant wasting paper and ink on after saying 'NI would not be damaged in any way by Brexit', there are 3 or 4 similarly deluded people who wander around my border town who never get in the papers. (Apart from that incident with the bottle of buckfast and the goat )

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/republic-to-be-crucified-by-brexit-senior-unionist-says-1.3032574

It seems that there is a thought process where, because the UK voted to leave the EU it is more or less accepted that this path has to be followed by Ireland as well. Maybe it is because of the GFA and The North will be so much simpler if Ireland wasn't in the EU as well and that is what is wanted.

stefanovich

Bringing Gibraltar into the conversation was all the fault of the EU. Showing their true colours.

Grayson

stefanovich wrote: »

Bringing Gibraltar into the conversation was all the fault of the EU. Showing their true colours.

You realise we're part of the EU. We could say that we'd only give the UK a FTA with the EU if get rid of the north. It wouldn't be the rest of the EU demanding it, it'd be us.
It's the same with Spain asking for Gibraltar. They can put it onto the table for discussion. It's got nothing to do with the rest of the EU. It's just what Spain wants. But as an equal member of the EU they can do that.

stefanovich

stefanovich wrote: »

Bringing Gibraltar into the conversation was all the fault of the EU. Showing their true colours.

I think it is more like Spain taking the opportunity to try to get Gibraltar back, nothing to do with the EU as they have been at the same game ever since they lost them.

Falcon L

On the Gibraltar discussion.

They want to remain in the UK, but what if the UK breaks up? What if all that is left is Wales sucking on a dried up English tit? Would Gibraltar find themselves looking for a better alliance?

I've spent many, many hours in the border queue and have a good idea what Spain are capable of. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they closed the border again, in spite of the fact that a large chunk of the La Linea economy is tied to the rock.

I know a lot of Gibraltarians and, while it is true that there is a hard core of little Englanders, a lot of the population have deep Spanish connections. They are a fickle bunch and are well aware that the wind is changing direction.

The vote to remain part of the UK was at a time when being cut off from Europe was seen as something that was unthinkable. Now it's almost reality and anything is possible. If I had to call it I would foresee Gibraltar pushing for some sort of independent entity, remaining part of Europe and having some sort of arrangement with the Spanish government.

I'm not sure how much England will value the strategic military importance of the rock, but it will surely be a factor. Their military base is truly impressive.

Falcon L

Falcon L wrote: »

On the Gibraltar discussion.

I'm not sure how much England will value the strategic military importance of the rock, but it will surely be a factor. Their military base is truly impressive.

Gibraltar is on one of the most critical trade routes on the planet, probably not as important as in the past due to the shift in trade patterns over the past few decades and the recently opened rail links between China and Europe.

A Dub in Glasgo

Deleted User wrote: »

but it IS relevant to the Spanish position on Gibraltar and always will be.

So sitting on the sidelines saying to Spain 'whatabout...' is going to solve the Gibraltar issue?

Falcon L

Deleted User wrote: »

Gibraltar is on one of the most critical trade routes on the planet, probably not as important as in the past due to the shift in trade patterns over the past few decades and the recently opened rail links between China and Europe.

Agreed, but my point was more about military strategic importance than trade.

steddyeddy

stefanovich wrote: »

Arrogant? 99% of the population want to be part of the UK. They also voted to stay in the EU cause they were worried they'd be used.

Well tough. That's the price they pay for being a colony.

FrancieBrady

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well tough. That's the price they pay for being a colony.

No mention of course that it has been 'used' one way or another since it's inception as a UK colony.

steddyeddy

Here's what the Austrailian trade minister had to say about trade post Brexit. Long story short it's about Ireland as an attractive investment oppertunity:

Many Australian firms have accessed the EU via Britain. With the uncertainty surrounding what a post-Brexit Britain will look like, I believe Australian firms will look to Ireland to fulfil that role.

Ireland has a very attractive business environment, low corporate tax rates, [a good] lifestyle and there is the connection between Australia and Ireland.

There are similar regulatory systems and similar legal systems. There is an ease of doing business here that would be attractive to Australian investors. I would see firms in Australia as having real potential in that regard.”

Galwayguy35

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

It's not an island.

Nate

Correct, my mistake.

Makes even more sense now why it's an issue for Spain.

Ash.J.Williams

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

Cool Picture:)

Absolutely brilliant movie btw

Christy42

BBDBB wrote: »

Yes, you are using percentage terms and I'm the one not understanding the scale here? And using language to obscure facts? Do us all a favour and write out what those two percentages actually equate to, annually, in any currency you fancy and then you may appreciate why using percentages doesn't help an understanding of scale. Measuring the size of the wounds in comparative terms is next to useless when you see the size of those wounds and understand that they can be avoided and ideally both sides will try to ensure that happens

The EU will blink first for two reasons, the U.K. would make an issue of it and in my view would hold firm, probably even refusing to discuss it and if pushed would even be an incentive to walk away with no deal, an extreme reaction but one I think that's possible, From an EU perspective, they won't risk the bigger issues on the table for a centuries old border dispute. Spain will stamp it's foot a bit and in diplomacy terms may well need to be re-assured or recompensed in some way but it won't be allowed by the Eu to hold up proceedings over it for too long.
Secondly in bargaining terms it's a useful tactic for the Eu to play good cop to Spain's bad cop

Veto power is only really powerful in its threatened use. Once actually used it becomes more of a problem than a help as you can't go anywhere else. Don't believe me? Ok, I herby veto your continued posting in this thread, your reaction wouldn't be one of compliance now would it? And what of the reaction of other posters if I asserted that this bar on you remains in place until you concede that a personal dispute between us is resolved to my satisfaction. Even if I had 26 allies who backed me initially, eventually if the rest wanted your contributions to continue someone would pull me to one side and tell me to find a way to wind my neck in

Percentages are important. If Ireland loses 100,000 jobs extra next month it will be a massive disaster. If it happens in the US it would barely register (I think they were creating about 100,000 a month last year).

If you want to use actual figures than maybe breaking it down as to how much of each countries exports are at risk as opposed to the eu block as a whole given governments will care about their own first.

Your logic that the EU's position is weakened by working together is ridiculous. Other countries will want Spain's backing for their own issues in the negotiations and that means leaving the details of the rock to Spain.

A Little Pony

The only thing I know about Gibraltar is when 3 IRA terrorists got popped while counting their stock. The people of Gibraltar have to decide what future they want.

MrPudding

A Little Pony wrote: »

The people of Gibraltar have to decide what future they want.

They did, last June 96% of them decided they wanted to stay in the EU. How is that working out for them?

MrP

A Little Pony

MrPudding wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

The people of Gibraltar have to decide what future they want.

They did, last June 96% of them decided they wanted to stay in the EU. How is that working out for them?

MrP

They will follow the example of her Majesty the Queen. They want to stay British.

FrancieBrady

Jeffrey Donaldson doing the head in the sand act on RTE right now.
'Our economy is sound' he says! :eek:

steddyeddy

A Little Pony wrote: »

The only thing I know about Gibraltar is when 3 IRA terrorists got popped while counting their stock. The people of Gibraltar have to decide what future they want.

Well you'll find out a lot more about it soon. You should be wishing the IRA's objective was reached soon ALP. The economy of the North will be getting even worse soon.

steddyeddy

A Little Pony wrote: »

They will follow the example of her Majesty the Queen. They want to stay British.

Well except she is German.

FrancieBrady

MrPudding wrote: »

They did, last June 96% of them decided they wanted to stay in the EU. How is that working out for them?

MrP

The fragility of being a colony exposed. The decision on their future is kinda out of their hands now.

BBDBB

Christy42 wrote: »

Percentages are important. If Ireland loses 100,000 jobs extra next month it will be a massive disaster. If it happens in the US it would barely register (I think they were creating about 100,000 a month last year).

If you want to use actual figures than maybe breaking it down as to how much of each countries exports are at risk as opposed to the eu block as a whole given governments will care about their own first.

Your logic that the EU's position is weakened by working together is ridiculous. Other countries will want Spain's backing for their own issues in the negotiations and that means leaving the details of the rock to Spain.

Yes. And by the same token the actual amounts involved are important, given the massive sums involved, to ignore that and obscure it is simply disingenuous in order to support a political agenda

The U.K. Will not make that sacrifice, if you think they will, then you may have a point. But I can assure you, you have seriously misunderstood the uk position and attitude. Everyone here is saying how the uk has made its bed and now they are going to pay the price. Do you seriously think that all the EU need to do is go to each of the 27 and ask what's on their Christmas list? What to you want the GB to bring you this year? And then when that's all done the uk will cough up to enter the single market and still be a good, cooperative neighbour

The art of any negotiations not telling the other side what you want, it's not about being in the position to hurt the other side more or less than they hurt you, it's not about squeezing the last drop out of them, it's about keeping both sides around the table, keeping the dialogue going or else what's the point of having negotiations at all? Just send a letter back, Thanks, sorry you are going, here's your wine bill, here's how much it's going to cost you to trade going forward and here is our list of demands not to invade you because we are bigger than you

Getting 27 individuals to agree a strategy is problematic, to think otherwise is naive. They all have a veto, Ie the power to put the brakes on, do you really believe that 26 will allow 1 to scupper progress, create uncertainty and delay a productive future? I don't. The bigger picture is too valuable to all, for that to be permitted.

A Little Pony

steddyeddy wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

The only thing I know about Gibraltar is when 3 IRA terrorists got popped while counting their stock. The people of Gibraltar have to decide what future they want.

Well you'll find out a lot more about it soon. You should be wishing the IRA's objective was reached soon ALP. The economy of the North will be getting even worse soon.

Yeah of course I want the IRA objective. 

FrancieBrady

A Little Pony wrote: »

Yeah of course I want the IRA objective. 

Well Arlene was one helluva recruit!

First Up

BBDBB wrote:

The art of any negotiations not telling the other side what you want, it's not about being in the position to hurt the other side more or less than they hurt you, it's not about squeezing the last drop out of them, it's about keeping both sides around the table, keeping the dialogue going or else what's the point of having negotiations at all?

Everyone knows what the UK wants. The only thing to be negotiated is the price.

Anita Blow

A Little Pony wrote: »

The people of Gibraltar have to decide what future they want.

A Little Pony wrote: »

They will follow the example of her Majesty the Queen. They want to stay British.

"The people will decide what they want...actually scratch that, they'll do what they're told"
The cognitive dissonance is giving me a migraine

Stars and Stripes

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sL_LtDRMHLM

I'm certainly no fan of the Tory's, but Heseltine was astute when it came to realpolitik. If Britain suffers economically clearly it will have some knock on effect on us, nevertheless, it's a process we must go through and if the result of it is a weakening and break up of the British state then it has to welcomed.

VinLieger

I cried laughing after hearing about gibraltar, as if more evidence was needed about how little thought was put into the whole thing

steddyeddy

VinLieger wrote: »

I cried laughing after hearing about gibraltar, as if more evidence was needed about how little thought was put into the whole thing

I'm pro-remainer living in England and I didn't even predict that.

Nate--IRL--

steddyeddy wrote: »

I'm pro-remainer living in England and I didn't even predict that.

It isn't your job to predict it, it is however Her Majesties Governments to. And they didn't. Not even a mention in the A50 letter.

Nate

A Little Pony

Anita Blow wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

The people of Gibraltar have to decide what future they want.

A Little Pony wrote: »

They will follow the example of her Majesty the Queen. They want to stay British.

"The people will decide what they want...actually scratch that, they'll do what they're told"
The cognitive dissonance is giving me a migraine

They want to remain British.

First Up

A Little Pony wrote:

They want to remain British.

They may find they are not in the best place to do it.

R P McMurphy

steddyeddy wrote: »

I'm pro-remainer living in England and I didn't even predict that.

I know a few people that work there and they all live in La Linea de la concepcion. They were pretty nervous coming up to the vote and have been considering moving back to Ireland or to England since. The Spanish can make things very awkward very quickly for Gibraltar and have done on numerous occasions. Is a horrid little place anyway, dirty, full of scruffy monkeys and reeks of urine

A Little Pony

First Up wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote:

They want to remain British.

They may find they are not in the best place to do it.

Government officials have come out to defend Gibraltar. No chance they will not want to remain in the empire.

FrancieBrady

Hard to believe that the UK 'forgot' or 'overlooked' mention of Gibraltar.
More likely they were hoping it wouldn't become a battleground.
Spain clearly has a different view.

Spain 1 Britain 0

All to play for in the second half.

First Up

A Little Pony wrote:

Government officials have come out to defend Gibraltar. No chance they will not want to remain in the empire.

What they want and what they end up with might not be the same. It won't be their decision.

embraer170

Gibraltar may have voted 99% to remain part of the UK, but they also voted 96% remain in the recent Brexit referendum.

Capt'n Midnight

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

A guy from Gibraltar was talking there on Sky giving out that Ireland wasn't on their side over the wording about Spain in Donald Tusks statement.

Irony overload.

Doesn't that guy realise that Spain isn't the only country in the EU that has territory occupied by the UK ?


Cyprus for example.





Anyway it's win-win for Spain, the future of Santander and other Spanish companies in the UK is looking a whole better now, compared to the cost of the UK exchequer of subsidising Gibraltar.

VinLieger

A Little Pony wrote: »

Government officials have come out to defend Gibraltar. No chance they will not want to remain in the empire.

Empire...... Lol the sun set on that a LONG time ago

It may not be up to then what happens to gibraltar which is highly ironic

Capt'n Midnight

First Up wrote: »

Everyone knows what the UK wants. The only thing to be negotiated is the price.

True.

The problems are that the UK isn't even offering the €60Bn remaining on the contract for cancelling early, and in addition the EU wants Freedoms for it's citizens.

And all this has been known for ages.

Capt'n Midnight

steddyeddy wrote: »

I'm pro-remainer living in England and I didn't even predict that.

stefanovich wrote: »

Bringing Gibraltar into the conversation was all the fault of the EU. Showing their true colours.

Doing this gives Spain leverage in other areas of the Brexit deal.

The Gibraltar issue has been going on for hundreds of years, and has come up time and time again. So not exactly a surprise.


Look at the history , there's the tobacco smuggling. The artificial reef. And the 96% vote to stay in the EU, all clue as to what might happen.



Also I'm sure the good people of Scotland, Northern Ireland, and Cornwall are OK with all the attention being given to Gibraltar.

A Little Pony

What is the story on Cornish pasties? I read something about them the other day on Brexit, I hope that issue can be resolved.

Capt'n Midnight

A Little Pony wrote: »

What is the story on Cornish pasties? I read something about them the other day on Brexit, I hope that issue can be resolved.

Baby and bath water.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographical_indications_and_traditional_specialities_in_the_European_Union

Three European Union schemes of geographical indications and traditional specialties, known as protected designation of origin (PDO), protected geographical indication (PGI), and traditional specialities guaranteed (TSG), promote and protect names of quality agricultural products and foodstuffs.

Inside the EU regional names are protected.

Outside it's like
Wild World by Cat Stevens

You say you want to start something new
And it's breaking my heart you're leaving
Baby, I'm grieving

But if you want to leave, take good care
Hope you have a lot of nice things to wear
But then a lot of nice things turn bad out there

Oh baby baby it's a wild world
It's hard to get by just upon a smile
Oh baby baby it's a wild world

...

But if you want to leave take good care
Hope you make a lot of nice friends out there
But just remember there's a lot of bad and beware

Zubeneschamali

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Inside the EU regional names are protected.

Outside it's like
Wild World by Cat Stevens

Even Wensleydale?

Junkyard Tom

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Inside the EU regional names are protected.

Will Britain not just clone that law in its great repeal copy-pastie bill?