Brexit: The Last Stand (No name calling)

Billy86

Thomas__ wrote: »

Don´t forget Trump, the "Donald" in all this, he might stand idly by and don´t give a fiddlers about the Brits, NATO and the EU altogether. Remember, the Brits once had the backing of the USA in the Falklands crisis (well, they had to beg them for support for Reagan wasn´t that keen to back them up on a war footing in the first place).

Checks and balances, Trump trying to going to war with any EU nation would pretty much be his last day in office.

Billy86

A Little Pony wrote: »

We can call on Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin's glorious Red Army.

You've never been much good at this.

First Up

A Little Pony wrote:

It is all about trade.

And freedom of movement, and residency rights, and work permits, and access to healthcare......

Christy42

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Michael Fallon was specifically asked the question, several times, so he answered it. He also goes to great lengths to point out that it is irrelevant because the sovereignty isn't being called in to question

https://www.thesun.co.uk/video/news/michael-fallon-insists-britain-is-behind-gibraltar-all-the-way-to-defend-its-sovereignty/

watch the interview.

Any full transcript? I am at work so can't watch it.

If I am wrong, I apologise, and it could well be papers trying to drum up divisions between the UK and Europe. I fail to see what line of questioning would produce such a stupid quote (he had to have known how it would look) but that is no excuse for me misrepresenting the story.

Edit: You seem to be referring to two different interviews near as I can tell that he did in short succession.

May has thankfully come out against all this talk in a more sensible manner.

Thomas__

Billy86 wrote: »

Thomas__ wrote: »

Don´t forget Trump, the "Donald" in all this, he might stand idly by and don´t give a fiddlers about the Brits, NATO and the EU altogether. Remember, the Brits once had the backing of the USA in the Falklands crisis (well, they had to beg them for support for Reagan wasn´t that keen to back them up on a war footing in the first place).

Checks and balances, Trump trying to going to war with any EU nation would pretty much be his last day in office.

Let us hope that what you say applies as well for his sabre rattling towards North-Korea. That is much more dangerous than him Standing idly by while some of the Brit politicians are throwing verbal fits these days. I have less doubt that if it would come to a military confrontation between the USA and North-Korea, it could lead to a nuclear war.

josip

Christy42 wrote: »

Any full transcript? I am at work so can't watch it.

Is this what you're looking for?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/3hshxFhHM4dKd3px6Q3NzRF/transcripts

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/02041704.pdf

Billy86

Thomas__ wrote: »

Let us hope that what you say applies as well for his sabre rattling towards North-Korea. That is much more dangerous than him Standing idly by while some of the Brit politicians are throwing verbal fits these days. I have less doubt that if it would come to a military confrontation between the USA and North-Korea, it could lead to a nuclear war.

I would agree, though doubt there would be as quick of an intervention on that front - it's much easier to spin a reason to go to war with North Korea than an EU member state and there are far, far less vested US interests being put at risk in doing so.

A Little Pony

Thomas__ wrote: »

Billy86 wrote: »

Thomas__ wrote: »

Don´t forget Trump, the "Donald" in all this, he might stand idly by and don´t give a fiddlers about the Brits, NATO and the EU altogether. Remember, the Brits once had the backing of the USA in the Falklands crisis (well, they had to beg them for support for Reagan wasn´t that keen to back them up on a war footing in the first place).

Checks and balances, Trump trying to going to war with any EU nation would pretty much be his last day in office.

Let us hope that what you say applies as well for his sabre rattling towards North-Korea. That is much more dangerous than him Standing idly by while some of the Brit politicians are throwing verbal fits these days. I have less doubt that if it would come to a military confrontation between the USA and North-Korea, it could lead to a nuclear war.

Nuclear war between who? North Korea would not win in a war against the United States.

elefant

A Little Pony wrote: »

Nuclear war between who? North Korea would not win in a war against the United States.

I don't think anyone is disputing that :pac:

Thomas__

Billy86 wrote: »

Thomas__ wrote: »

Let us hope that what you say applies as well for his sabre rattling towards North-Korea. That is much more dangerous than him Standing idly by while some of the Brit politicians are throwing verbal fits these days. I have less doubt that if it would come to a military confrontation between the USA and North-Korea, it could lead to a nuclear war.

I would agree, though doubt there would be as quick of an intervention on that front - it's much easier to spin a reason to go to war with North Korea than an EU member state and there are far, far less vested US interests being put at risk in doing so.

The danger lies in the impulsivness of the mad NK leader and the thin-skinned Trump.

Christy42

josip wrote: »

Is this what you're looking for?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/3hshxFhHM4dKd3px6Q3NzRF/transcripts

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/02041704.pdf

Yes. Thank you. I would say it looks like Fallon was not particularly pushed. The question seemed to be a direct response to the Gibraltar issue at hand and he lead it to sovereignty when there was no need.

However I also apologise. I made a mistake as to who Fred was referring to when he said Fallon. Somehow I got Howard and Fallon mixed up in my head. Howard said the far more inflammatory remarks though Fallon and Johnson were certainly silly comments.

Fratton Fred

Christy42 wrote: »

Yes. Thank you. I would say it looks like Fallon was not particularly pushed. The question seemed to be a direct response to the Gibraltar issue at hand and he lead it to sovereignty when there was no need.

However I also apologise. I made a mistake as to who Fred was referring to when he said Fallon. Somehow I got Howard and Fallon mixed up in my head. Howard said the far more inflammatory remarks though Fallon and Johnson were certainly silly comments.

it looks fairly straight forward to me.

EM: I want to talk about the size of the defence budget in just a
second. But before we leave Gibraltar, are you going to take it off
the table?
MF: Well, it’s interesting that as the Chief Minister pointed out to
you earlier this morning, Spain does not claim sovereignty over
Gibraltar in that draft guideline that the EU published, and we are
very clear there cannot be a change in the status and sovereignty
of Gibraltar unless the people of Gibraltar agree to it. And they
don’t. They clearly don’t. And so that is not going to happen.
Gibraltar’s going to be involved in these negotiations. Again, the
Chief Minister made that clear. He’s going to be involved
throughout and there will in the end of course be an agreement
that fully respects the position of Gibraltar.
EM: The Conservative manifesto on Gibraltar mentions it in exactly
the same sentence as the Falkland Islands. How far is the United
Kingdom prepared to go to look after Gibraltar’s interests?
MF: Oh, we’re going to look after Gibraltar. Gibraltar’s going to be
-
EM: How far?
MF: Well, Gibraltar’s going to be protected all the way. Because
the sovereignty of Gibraltar cannot be changed without the
agreement of the people of Gibraltar, and they’ve made it very
clear they do not want to live under Spanish rule. And it’s
interesting, I think, in the draft guidelines from the EU that Spain
is not saying that the whole thing is subject to the transfer of
sovereignty.

Christy42

Fratton Fred wrote: »

it looks fairly straight forward to me.

Note that EM does not mention sovereignty. He is asked if Gibraltar is off the table-say it was never on the table (which he did) but then starts talking about defending the sovereignty after when there is no need.

He could have simply stuck to saying that the economic interests would be protected in negotiations which was the far more relevant answer.

Or he could have gone one step further and said they would not take a deal for the UK that does not include Gibraltar but that is probably playing their hand a bit and depends on what negotiating position they will take.

Like I said I take bigger issue with the fact that Howard's statements were not refuted at the time and got them confused (noting my post said ex politician but I did then get the names mixed up after)

Peregrine

Alright, here's the 411, folks:

This thread has been running for almost 10 months. It's political but it was started because it was a hot topic. It's not anymore. This is evident by the fact that this thread is basically now just a dozen people posting in it day in day out.

We're not prepared to keep this thread active and taking up space on the first page for the next four or five years for a few posters when there are more suitable forums for this debate. As I'm sure you're all aware, there's a Politics forum and Politics Cafe forum on boards.ie. The former being for a serious discussion on politics and the latter for a more light-hearted approach. You're all welcome to post about Brexit in either of those forums within the rules of each forum's charter.

I'll give you a while to wind down the discussion and transition to the two forums listed above. I'll be closing the thread when it reaches 10,000 posts.

Thanks
Mod

dinorebel

So this is the Brexit exit?

Dyr

Peregrine wrote: »

Alright, here's the 411, folks:

This thread has been running for almost 10 months. It's political but it was started because it was a hot topic. It's not anymore. This is evident by the fact that this thread is basically now just a dozen people posting in it day in day out.

We're not prepared to keep this thread active and taking up space on the first page for the next four or five years for a few posters when there are more suitable forums for this debate.
Thanks
Mod

If I could represent the honesty levels of that post in a picture this would be it:

Capt'n Midnight

A Little Pony wrote: »

Nuclear war between who? North Korea would not win in a war against the United States.

North Korea has already won.

There's little doubt that Kim has a nuke stashed in a container near Washington, probably in the same container park as the Israeli , Pakistani and the South African ones.

catbear

Well now that the conjecturing is over and the whole process passes from the UK to the collective will of the 27 there really isn't much left to shout about.

It's the best thing to happen in europe since the fall of the iron curtain.

First Up

catbear wrote:

It's the best thing to happen in europe since the fall of the iron curtain.

Well it certainly moves things along and changes the picture. Europe will get on with it - the UK can get on with itself.

Fratton Fred

First Up wrote: »

Well it certainly moves things along and changes the picture. Europe will get on with it - the UK can get on with itself.

Which really sums up this thread.

A few little Irelanders who are really no better than those that thought voting to leave the eu would give the nhs £350m a week.

There are no winners in this. The eu will be worse off without the UK and the UK will be worse off out of it.

dinorebel

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Which really sums up this thread.

A few little Irelanders who are really no better than those that thought voting to leave the eu would give the nhs £350m a week.

There are no winners in this. The eu will be worse off without the UK and the UK will be worse off out of it.

To be fair Fred neither side comes out of this thread with much credit.

First Up

Fratton Fred wrote:

A few little Irelanders who are really no better than those that thought voting to leave the eu would give the nhs £350m a week.

Little Irelanders? Big Europeans more like.

The Brexiteers remind of the old Oscar Wilde line of knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing.

As we approach the terminus for this trainwreck of a thread, I would like to say a couple of closing comments.
I really hope that Brexit is a success, even if only to remove that smugness from the republicans on here who are really banking of its failure so they can gloat from the treetops, despite the fact that Ireland will also be in for a rough time if there is a bad Brexit bill.

I really do not know if Brexit will be successful, but whatever happens, it isn't the end of the world, on the other hand it is hopefully the beginning of the end of globalisation that has created a financial world where as few as eight people can possess the equivalent wealth of 50% of the (poorer) global population.

The formation of the EEC was a successful venture in that it allowed for easy trade between member states, but that was as far as it really needed to go,
Don't forget that the original reason behind the EEC was to prevent WWIII from starting in Europe between Germany and France, France never wanted a strong Germany in Europe ever again (that worked out well).

I look forward to seeing what the world is like in two years time, hopefully the "brit bashers" will be fairly muted.

FrancieBrady

Personally any 'gloating' I did was about arrogant Tories and those in fantasy land about Britain's remaining power in the world, hitting the brick wall of reality.

Which they more or less have.
I really do hope that out of the wreckage of Brexit that there is a power shift in Britain. That the realisation that they were conned will awaken that Brexit vote, educate them and inspire them to fix the problems in their own back yard because that is where their real problems are.
If the Gibraltar colony is gone, Scotland is independent and Ireland is united or closer to it at the end of it that would be good too.

Demolishing the myths propagated by the defenders of the realm made this thread very informative and entertaining. I see no reason to close it and corral it in the stuffiness of the politics forum as it is about much more than politics.

First Up

Deleted User wrote:

I really hope that Brexit is a success, even if only to remove that smugness from the republicans on here who are really banking of its failure so they can gloat from the treetops

Can I not recognise the idiocy of Brexit and delight in the discomfort and misfortune of those who caused it, without being accused of being a republican (which I most definitely am not)?

kingchess

First Up wrote: »

Can I not recognise the idiocy of Brexit and delight in the discomfort and misfortune of those who caused it, without being accused of being a republican (which I most definitely am not)?

If you read the comments section of the Gaurdian,the Independent etc you can see a lot of doom and gloom from those who voted remain(Remoaners as they are referred to by those who voted to leave).there are a lot more bitter opinions expressed than found in this thread

---

they can not all be republicans.Can they??

joeysoap

Heard an interview on LMFN this morning about Brexit and its effect on Ireland. Jist of interview was if UK goes for hard Brexit, full withdrawal from single market etc. This could open the door for Irish exporters to the EU by chasing markets currently taking British goods and replacing them with Irish goods.

catbear

Whether Brexit will be successful really depends on what people expect it to be.

Some want a reduced quality of life in return for a sense of greater control but they've a way to go before they knock North Korea off the Sovereignty top spot.

Argentina was once one of the wealthiest nations in the world but there is still a notion there that it is still a wealthy nation and I believe the UK will suffer its own delusion for a good decade or more as it slips away.

Calling out the idiocy of the Leave arguments was never anti-British and they buggering themselves only validates that international relationships are no different than friendships, you get further with honey.

If they can't be a good example then they'll have to be a horrible warning.

First Up

joeysoap wrote:

Heard an interview on LMFN this morning about Brexit and its effect on Ireland. Jist of interview was if UK goes for hard Brexit, full withdrawal from single market etc. This could open the door for Irish exporters to the EU by chasing markets currently taking British goods and replacing them with Irish goods.

Good to see that someone has such a firm grasp of the obvious.

R P McMurphy

I see no reason to close the thread either. Poor decision as has been a good addition to boards.ie since the referendum.

oppenheimer1

R P McMurphy wrote: »

I see no reason to close the thread either. Poor decision as has been a good addition to boards.ie since the referendum.

Too many posts, thread has to close

R P McMurphy

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Too many posts, thread has to close

Reboot. Is one of the biggest events in the recent history of these islands so would be good to have a central thread. Will spawn lots of small ones over the next two years as events unfold

oppenheimer1

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Too many posts, thread has to close

10,000 posts has been deemed the limit to cut threads to, to avoid over long threads causing the server performance deteriorate.

FrancieBrady

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Too many posts, thread has to close

Why not open a new one though. There were a lot of good contributions too, that wouldn't fit in the narrow confines of politics and will only create headaches for mods in another way.

Junkyard Tom

I'd much prefer to chat about Brexit here in AH. I'm apprehensive about posting in the Politics Cafe.

Peregrine

I have created a thread in the Politics Café where discussion on Brexit can be continued. Please read the Politics Cafe charter before posting.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=103113975#post103113975

R P McMurphy wrote: »

I see no reason to close the thread either. Poor decision as has been a good addition to boards.ie since the referendum.

This isn't a politics forum. We allowed this thread because it was a major event when the referendum was passed. It's still a major event but it's not exactly the breaking news it was in June. So we don't see any issue with moving the political discussion to a dedicated politics forum where the discussion can be continued as this unfolds over the years.

We would have had to start a new thread after 10,000 posts anyway. The new thread is now just in a politics forum. I might even join you.

There's also a long-running Brexit thread in the Politics forum where this discussion can be had. Please familiarise yourself with the charter of the forum before posting.