Brexit: The Last Stand (No name calling)

FrancieBrady

Joe Hill wrote: »

I am fairly certain brexit will not happen now.. ..in any shape or form.

I watched the repeat of Question Time last night that was referenced earlier.
I was sceptical that Brexit would happen but I am more convinced after watching that.
I have never seen such overt xenophobia given voice like that before. Of course The huge danger is that people don't realise themselves that they are engaging in it. And of course we had people (who should know better) stoking it, Conrad Black etc with his 'Britain is a great nation, and that is reason enough to let it do as it wants' (not his exacr words)
A brave Polish woman and a young female teacher spoke up against Brexit and for a few moments I feared for their safety. Awful.

The divisions exacerbated by Thatcher have gotten deeper and maybe be terminal. I genuinely think Britain/UK is in real trouble.

steddyeddy

maryishere wrote: »

Which is why a relatively high percentage of the migrants to Australia have been Irish. Would you prefer it if the muslim population of Australia increased by 11.5 million like it has in Europe? There are 260 million people next door to Australia living in Indonesia. Their nominal gdp per head is only 3400 dollars per year. Would you like it if half of those people settled in Australia?

A high number of migrants are Irish because they're abused? What are you talking about Mary?

Anita Blow

maryishere wrote: »

R P McMurphy wrote: »

I don't know how anyone could hold that up as a model for how to treat migrants.

Ye goota be cruel to be kind sometimes.

Did you just try to justify abuse of vulnerable children?
Jesus ****ing Christ

FrancieBrady

Anita Blow wrote: »

Did you just try to justify abuse of vulnerable children?
Jesus ****ing Christ

One of those 'OOOkayyyyy' moments when you back away.

Fratton Fred

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Think of it in boxing weight division terms.

China, USA, EU are heavyweights.

India is a cruiserweight.

Japan, Germany, Russia, Indonesia and Brazil are light heavyweights.

The UK and France are super middleweights.

Italy and Mexico are middleweights.

The UK needs to understand that it's in the middleweight category and can not expect to push around the heavyweights.

Further proof that shinners should not attempt economics.

FrancieBrady

A pro Brexiter/or somebody who thinks Brexit will not impact negatively lecturing somebody on economics. :rolleyes:

Fratton Fred

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A pro Brexiter/or somebody who thinks Brexit will not impact negatively lecturing somebody on economics. :rolleyes:

It will impact negatively, no doubt on that.

FrancieBrady

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It will impact negatively, no doubt on that.

How?

Fratton Fred

FrancieBrady wrote: »

How?

Because it causes unnecessary uncertainty, which stalls economic growth.

The Rape of Lucretia

Surely the sensible place for the hard border (and there has to be a hard border somewhere - taking back control of brders and immigration is clearly nonsense without one) is between Nortgern Ireland and the mainland. Keeping an open border within Ireland is desireable for all. With no border controls post Brexit impossible, and it very unfair to expect the republicans to carry the cost and disruption to their citizens travel within the EU, the practical solution is to do so at the ports and airports of NI. Disruptive to NI citizens travelling within tge UK - but too bad - they are the ones who want their cake and eat it. So they should pay the price for their compromise solution of Brexit but open border with Eire.

catbear

Indeed, as it is ID checks are required for leaving ulster ports so moving the CTA back into the Irish sea wouldn't even be noticed.

Nothing changes for northern Ireland residents, unionist and nationalist.

The only thing happens is for EU citizens who'll have to have their British visa sorted if they want to travel across to that miserable hole.

steddyeddy

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Surely the sensible place for the hard border (and there has to be a hard border somewhere - taking back control of brders and immigration is clearly nonsense without one) is between Nortgern Ireland and the mainland. Keeping an open border within Ireland is desireable for all. With no border controls post Brexit impossible, and it very unfair to expect the republicans to carry the cost and disruption to their citizens travel within the EU, the practical solution is to do so at the ports and airports of NI. Disruptive to NI citizens travelling within tge UK - but too bad - they are the ones who want their cake and eat it. So they should pay the price for their compromise solution of Brexit but open border with Eire.

Forgetting NI reunification or staying with the mainland for now, NI really needs a dose of reality.

catbear

What would be interesting is how welfare payments for Irish citizens in NI will be arranged. If they were to eligible for their Irish employment benefit for the work they do in the republic while resident in NI then I can see more border business actually happening.

steddyeddy

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I watched the repeat of Question Time last night that was referenced earlier.
I was sceptical that Brexit would happen but I am more convinced after watching that.
I have never seen such overt xenophobia given voice like that before. Of course The huge danger is that people don't realise themselves that they are engaging in it. And of course we had people (who should know better) stoking it, Conrad Black etc with his 'Britain is a great nation, and that is reason enough to let it do as it wants' (not his exacr words)
A brave Polish woman and a young female teacher spoke up against Brexit and for a few moments I feared for their safety. Awful.

The divisions exacerbated by Thatcher have gotten deeper and maybe be terminal. I genuinely think Britain/UK is in real trouble.

Yes I was watching that too. A Polish woman says she feels less welcome after Brexit and what's the response from the audience? They boo her. This is on Question Time, not Jeremy Kyle.

Ken Clarke was the voice of reason. Then you had the little Britainers full of pride over Brexit booing anyone who disagreed with them.

Apparantly criticising Brexit is anti-democratic.

FrancieBrady

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Because it causes unnecessary uncertainty, which stalls economic growth.

So why so protective of those who have brought this stagnation on themselves and most likely to this island?

steddyeddy

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So why so protective of those who have brought this stagnation on themselves and most likely to this island?

Britain and its colonies = good no matter what the action.

FrancieBrady

steddyeddy wrote: »

Yes I was watching that too. A Polish woman says she feels less welcome after Brexit and what's the response from the audience? They boo her. This is on Question Time, not Jeremy Kyle.

Ken Clarke was the voice of reason. Then you had the little Britainers full of pride over Brexit booing anyone who disagreed with them.

Apparantly criticising Brexit is anti-democratic.

Problem is, you can't put that stuff back in the box for a generation or more. It will grow and give licence to people to say and do stuff.
We have a poster on here who thinks abuse of children caught in an impossible situation is 'being cruel to be kind'.

FrancieBrady

steddyeddy wrote: »

Britain and its colonies = good no matter what the action.

The defence and repudiation of any criticism makes it seem that way alright.

Fratton Fred

steddyeddy wrote: »

Britain and its colonies = good no matter what the action.

I thought you were better than that.

Fratton Fred

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The defence and repudiation of any criticism makes it seem that way alright.

The thing is, it isn't criticism, it's childish finger-pointing. You seem to think that the eu is beyond reproach and any idea that us has its faults is just stupid colonialism.

The eu is a great idea, but badly executed and has left a lot of people all over Europe feeling alienated. The eu is just as much to blame for Brexit as Nigel Farage and unless it changes, Britain will be the first of many.

FrancieBrady

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The thing is, it isn't criticism, it's childish finger-pointing. You seem to think that the eu is beyond reproach and any idea that us has its faults is just stupid colonialism.

The eu is a great idea, but badly executed and has left a lot of people all over Europe feeling alienated. The eu is just as much to blame for Brexit as Nigel Farage and unless it changes, Britain will be the first of many.

I have said several times that the EU is not perfect.
We are discussing Britain exiting the EU not the EU per se.

If you think Brexit (which is voluntary) will have negative effects then it would be sensible to assume that you would be critical of those who choose to do it.

But not in Fred's world it seems, so there must be another reason.

Fratton Fred

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I have said several times that the EU is not perfect.
We are discussing Britain exiting the EU not the EU per se.

If you think Brexit (which is voluntary) will have negative effects then it would be sensible to assume that you would be critical of those who choose to do it.

But not in Fred's world it seems, so there must be another reason.

I am critical of a lot of people who voted to leave, for sure. But let's be honest here, you're not critical of the people who voted to leave, your only reason for posting on this thread is to constantly belittle Britain and the British.

I posted a link on the last thread about self employed people in the UK earning the lowest they have done since 1995. A significant reason for this is an influx of cheap labour (Polish Plumbers syndrome) from eastern Europe. If you were a self employed builder and you'd seen your earning potential decline significantly over the years and you were given an opportunity to change it, what would you do? Is that being a little Englander (a term you love throwing around) or is it just self preservation?

Can you try and answer this question without trying to claim the UK is going bust, isn't one of the world's biggest economies, that the Royal Navy is useless and that the Falklands belongs to Argentina?

FrancieBrady

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I am critical of a lot of people who voted to leave, for sure. But let's be honest here, you're not critical of the people who voted to leave, your only reason for posting on this thread is to constantly belittle Britain and the British.

I posted a link on the last thread about self employed people in the UK earning the lowest they have done since 1995. A significant reason for this is an influx of cheap labour (Polish Plumbers syndrome) from eastern Europe. If you were a self employed builder and you'd seen your earning potential decline significantly over the years and you were given an opportunity to change it, what would you do? Is that being a little Englander (a term you love throwing around) or is it just self preservation?

Can you try and answer this question without trying to claim the UK is going bust, isn't one of the world's biggest economies, that the Royal Navy is useless and that the Falklands belongs to Argentina?

Can you stop exaggerating in your overweening defence? (Do you seriously think that nobody has noticed how you operate on the site? You haven't criticised a British action since 1066 and like Mary constantly demean Ireland in your defence)
1. Nobody anywhere on the thread has claimed Britain is going bust.
2. Little Englanders exist in large numbers, you only have to look at Question Time last week to see a BBC studio full of them.
3. The Royal Navy is seriously depleted from what it was, is seriously underfunded and no amount of huffing is going to change that. It's future ability to maintain British power is a factor in the decision they are making.

To answer your question, the unemployed builder's lot is not going to change by Brexiting and will likely get worse.
They were lied to and a Tory government and establishment was too busy trying to survive politically to disabuse anybody of that notion.

My beef/reason for posting is with British governments and their influence on us. I don't 'hate' anyone.

steddyeddy

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I thought you were better than that.

Sorry Fred. You have to admit though Boards isn't short of people defending British actions in Ireland. It's not something I understand.

Junkyard Tom

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Further proof that shinners should not attempt economics.

Poor ol' Fred finds it difficult to take that Britain is no longer one of the big boys.

Fratton Fred

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Can you stop exaggerating in your overweening defence? (Do you seriously think that nobody has noticed how you operate on the site? You haven't criticised a British action since 1066 and like Mary constantly demean Ireland in your defence)
1. Nobody anywhere on the thread has claimed Britain is going bust.
2. Little Englanders exist in large numbers, you only have to look at Question Time last week to see a BBC studio full of them.
3. The Royal Navy is seriously depleted from what it was, is seriously underfunded and no amount of huffing is going to change that. It's future ability to maintain British power is a factor in the decision they are making.

To answer your question, the unemployed builder's lot is not going to change by Brexiting and will likely get worse.
They were lied to and a Tory government and establishment was too busy trying to survive politically to disabuse anybody of that notion.

My beef/reason for posting is with British governments and their influence on us. I don't 'hate' anyone.

So no then, you can't answer the question without slipping in to little irelander mode.

FrancieBrady

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So no then, you can't answer the question without slipping in to little irelander mode.

I told you why giving the 'unemployed builder' a free pass for a xenophobic act (blaming Polish workers for his plight) was wrong. And why that builder was decieved.

What is Little Irelander about that? Are 'wrong' unemployed builders automatically right now?

Fratton Fred

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Poor ol' Fred finds it difficult to take that Britain is no longer one of the big boys.

http://www.europeangeostrategy.org/2014/01/european-geostrategy-audit-major-powers-worlds-fifteen-most-powerful-countries-2014/

It must be hard for a Little Irelander to read that.

FrancieBrady

Fratton Fred wrote: »

http://www.europeangeostrategy.org/2014/01/european-geostrategy-audit-major-powers-worlds-fifteen-most-powerful-countries-2014/

It must be hard for a Little Irelander to read that.

The comments are hilarious, they are trying to figure out ways to make the British a Super Power.
Is that you asking about aircraft carriers Fred?

Junkyard Tom

Fratton Fred wrote: »

http://www.europeangeostrategy.org/2014/01/european-geostrategy-audit-major-powers-worlds-fifteen-most-powerful-countries-2014/

It must be hard for a Little Irelander to read that.

Good for you for digging up a random source that helps underpin your 'Britannia-Rules-the-Waves' bias.

The UK needs to get real, according to this viewpoint. It is a middling power, at best, with other priorities at this time. It doesn't and cannot straddle the world stage, nor should it want to. It must pick and choose its fights carefully for a different day and age.

Not Russia Today

FrancieBrady

Even the BBC are questioning the role and position of Britain, talking about the exact same things (That Fred likes to call 'Little Irelander' in the same way) But let an Irish person do it in the context of a debate on Brexit which affects us all... :eek:

Is the UK's role on the world stage a decades-long story of managed decline, including the orderly withdrawal from a once vast empire?
Or is it the story of a medium-sized power whose standing in the world reflects the new global reality?

Those on this side of the argument - let's call them the foreign policy activists - believe this strength is now slowly eroding and that we are witnessing a clear decline in the UK's standing, a nation, they say, ghosting into the shadows.
Everywhere across the globe, as the crises and wars multiply, the UK is reduced to being a bit-part player.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-32317703

A Little Pony

steddyeddy wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

Ulster will live on, we have got through many things in our history. Brexit will be the best thing to have happened to the province since William of Orange tied his horse next to Scarva tree.

How will the North benefit economically?

Economic trade deals with the rest of the world, what is not to like about it. The southerners on this forum would like to have a trade deal with China and Canada etc. All revolutions settle down and this will be no different.

A Little Pony

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

Ulster will live on

Ulster is a province of Ireland. Stop trying to confuse the northeast of Ireland, that's currently a dependency of England's, with an ancient Irish province.

we have got through many things in our history.

Who is we?

Brexit will be the best thing to have happened to the province since William of Orange tied his horse next to Scarva tree.

The best thing to happen in the northeast was the British putting up the barricades at Drumcree - it was the swansong of unionism and orangeism.

Don't be bitter that we are leaving the tyrannical European Union. Ulster will just be fine.

A Little Pony

Fratton Fred wrote: »

steddyeddy wrote: »

Britain and its colonies = good no matter what the action.

I thought you were better than that.

You not read that posters posts lol? Irish Republicans hate Britain.

Fratton Fred

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Good for you for digging up a random source that helps underpin your 'Britannia-Rules-the-Waves' bias.

Any one that disagrees with the little Irelander view thinks Britain rules the waves? you are funny.

There's only one country that could even remotely claim to "rule the waves", as that link shows.

Britain, by most measures, is around fifth in the world.

Strength of currency, military power, size of economy.

I know the little irelanders like to think the UK is some washed up, has been. But that simply isn't true.

Junkyard Tom

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I know the little irelanders like to think...

What the hell is a 'little irelander'? Ireland is a little country with a little population with little power. Aren't we all 'little Irelanders' by default?

the UK is some washed up, has been.

Who said this?

A Little Pony

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Good for you for digging up a random source that helps underpin your 'Britannia-Rules-the-Waves' bias.

Any one that disagrees with the little Irelander view thinks Britain rules the waves? you are funny.

There's only one country that could even remotely claim to "rule the waves", as that link shows.

Britain, by most measures, is around fifth in the world.

Strength of currency, military power, size of economy.

I know the little irelanders like to think the UK is some washed up, has been. But that simply isn't true.

Thank god for the Royal Navy or Hitler would have had his way with the Irish people like the Priests of the 60s. Its a good job Britain did rule the waves.

Junkyard Tom

A Little Pony wrote: »

Thank god for the Royal Navy or Hitler would have had his way with the Irish people

The British should thank the US and Soviet Union or the British might be speaking German.

like the Priests of the 60s

Nothing like a bit of bitter orange on Friday night, eh?

A Little Pony

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

Thank god for the Royal Navy or Hitler would have had his way with the Irish people

The British should thank the US and Soviet Union or the British might be speaking German.

like the Priests of the 60s

Nothing like a bit of bitter orange on Friday night, eh?

The Americans certainly waited long enough to enter the war. I actually thank Hitler for being possibly the most incompetent military leader in history. Imagine hammering on the door, its about to break and then walking away.

Junkyard Tom

A Little Pony wrote: »

Don't be bitter that we are leaving the tyrannical European Union. Ulster will just be fine.

Ulster is an ancient Irish province and isn't going anywhere. Why are you trying to confuse the northeast of Ireland's dependency on England with Ulster?

Who is we?

Junkyard Tom

A Little Pony wrote: »

I actually thank Hitler for being possibly the most incompetent military leader in history.

There were a couple of British generals in WWI who'd give him a run for his money.

FrancieBrady

A Little Pony wrote: »

Don't be bitter that we are leaving the tyrannical European Union. Ulster will just be fine.

Give me a tyrant that shores up a province destroyed by ruling sectarian bigots (economically and socially) to the tune of more than 13 billion any day of the week.

Wouldn't be the first time the DUP and its cheerleaders cut of its nose and then stood by while others got them out of the mess.

maryishere

FrancieBrady wrote: »

sectarian bigots (economically and socially) .

The only main party which openly condoned terrorist actions ( bombings and shootings ) during the troubles was Sinn Fein. After each outrage by paramilitaries (loyalist or republican) the other parties always condemned it. The RUC and security forces had the support of the other parties ( other than Sinn Fein) to capture paramilitaries from both sides, which they did, many of whom ended up in jail.

FrancieBrady

maryishere wrote: »

The only main party which openly condoned terrorist actions ( bombings and shootings ) during the troubles was Sinn Fein. After each outrage by paramilitaries (loyalist or republican) the other parties always condemned it. The RUC and security forces had the support of the other parties ( other than Sinn Fein) to capture paramilitaries from both sides, which they did, many of whom ended up in jail.

The solution to the conflict/war tells you the cause. The solution was a power sharing agreement.
The cause was a sectarian bigoted ruling elite which economically and socially destroyed the state they were given.
Now they (DUP) are biting one of the hands that helped them rebuild.

jaykay74

Fratton Fred wrote:

I know the little irelanders .

Wtf is this sh1te?

maryishere

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The solution to the conflict/war tells you the cause.

Correct. The solution was for the paramilitaries to stop bombing and shooting, and to have their arms and semtex put beyond their use. Only the state retained their arms, as in all other democratic countries.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The solution was a power sharing agreement.

Elections were held in the seventies and eighties too, but Sinn Fein could not even get an MP elected until the eighties, such was their lack of support. When it abandoned its support for the "armed struggle" , it main electoral gains north and south. Parties that do not support paramilitaries are welcomed to share power in N.I., even if some southern parties would still refuse to share power with S.F.

indioblack

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

There were a couple of British generals in WWI who'd give him a run for his money.

This is the kind of remark that I'd say Fred was referring to.
Why reference WW1?
Or British generals, specifically?
The thread title is there, at the top of each page.
References to colonial and imperial history, military might, or the lack therof, have little direct bearing on Brexit.

The flying mouse

maryishere wrote: »

The only main party which openly condoned terrorist actions ( bombings and shootings ) during the troubles was Sinn Fein. After each outrage by paramilitaries (loyalist or republican) the other parties always condemned it. The RUC and security forces had the support of the other parties ( other than Sinn Fein) to capture paramilitaries from both sides, which they did, many of whom ended up in jail.

Wrong again Mary.

Ian paisley and his Democratic Unionist Party have been involved with Ulster Resistance and worked alongside loyalist paramilitaries such as the Ulster Defence Association in the 1974 Ulster Workers' Council Strikes and the 1977 Loyalist Association of Workers strike.

And there is countless other times when Loyalist paramilitarys had the underhanded support of the main unionist party's, Who will forget the time when David Trimble and Ian paisley danced down the road holding hands at drumCree, with the approval of Billy wright etc etc.

As for support for the provies before they contested elections, if they hadn't got widespread support they wouldent have lasted very long.

And tell me mary if SF or the provies had no support why when the violence stopped did they all leave the SDLP in thrives and backed SF ? why would people just wake up and support a party that you say had no support before ?

FrancieBrady

maryishere wrote: »

Correct. The solution was for the paramilitaries to stop bombing and shooting, and to have their arms and semtex put beyond their use. Only the state retained their arms, as in all other democratic countries.


Elections were held in the seventies and eighties too, but Sinn Fein could not even get an MP elected until the eighties, such was their lack of support. When it abandoned its support for the "armed struggle" , it main electoral gains north and south. Parties that do not support paramilitaries are welcomed to share power in N.I., even if some southern parties would still refuse to share power with S.F.

Paramilitaries are a symptom of the problem Mary.
The solution was power-sharing. The problem was a one sided sectarian state.

It's basic stuff really.

maryishere

The flying mouse wrote: »

Wrong again Mary.

Wrong again Flying mouse. I remember often after various UVF murders (or other loyalist murders) for example, the UUP, DUP and paisley (and others) condeming it.
When Republican paramilitaries committed atrocities, Sinn Fein not only refused to condemn it but often condoned the PIRA, INLA etc.