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Deposit refund? Lease not started, house doesn't meet min standards

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  • 18-10-2016 11:00pm
    #1
    Tigerbalm1
    Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭


    Hi - I've paid half of the deposit on an apartment, the lease (hasn't been signed yet) is due to start tomorrow with the balance and the rent to be paid.

    I've changed my mind about the apartment and also I'm not sure that it meets the minimal rental requirements. There is a communal washing machine and a shared outside space (not exclusive to the property to be rented) but no dryer.

    Would it be possible to get the deposit back?


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    #2
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,965 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    You can ask.

    I don't see that it doesn't meet minimum standards, though. You don't need exclusive use of a washing machine and drying area, AFAIK.


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    #3
    Baby01032012
    Registered Users Posts: 1,622 ✭✭✭Baby01032012


    As above - nothing from your post suggests it doesn't meet minimum standards. If no dryer once there is an outside drying area the standards are covered.

    Ask agent/landlord nicely, they have the right to withhold advertising costs and any rent lost until apartment is relet, which should be minimal.


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    #4
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    I know its not ideal- but if the absence of a dryer is your only issue- buy a clothes horse and a dehumidifier which has a clothes drying cycle? Its what a lot of people who live in apartments/townhouses (myself included) make do with. Its far from unusual not to have a dryer (or is it drier).......

    Is there another reason that you've decided that this property doesn't meet your requirements?


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    #5
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    If you haven't signed the lease you are entitled to you deposit back. The RTB won't entertain you and you will likely have to go to the Small Claims Court or the PSRA to get it back.


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    #6
    dev100
    Registered Users Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭dev100


    Tigerbalm1 wrote:
    Hi - I've paid half of the deposit on an apartment, the lease (hasn't been signed yet) is due to start tomorrow with the balance and the rent to be paid.


    If it's been falsely advertised I'd look for my money back , if it's been advertised as to what you've seen and accepted and have now changed your mind well that's a different story.


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    #7
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    If you haven't signed the lease you are entitled to you deposit back. The RTB won't entertain you and you will likely have to go to the Small Claims Court or the PSRA to get it back.

    Again, I am sorry, but this is factually incorrect. Though a written lease is preferable, the tenant can enter into a binding verbal contract, agreed when he/she handed over the part deposit. And in the absence of any wrong doing such as inaccurate advertising, or failure of the LL to provide required facilities, this would be considered a change of mind in the SCC.


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    #8
    Tigerbalm1
    Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭Tigerbalm1


    I was wondering if a communal outside drying area is sufficient to meet the standards or does it have to be exclusive to the apartment? I think the regulations say "exclusive to the house".,

    It's also very small so there is no space for a clothes horse (really there would be no space). I'm not sure where it would be possible to dry clothes in bad weather.

    Overall it's just not great and I'd rather go somewhere else.


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    #9
    Tigerbalm1
    Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭Tigerbalm1


    I am also aware that we have a verbal contract, I was wondering if it is possible since the actual rental period hasn't started yet.


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    #10
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Tigerbalm1 wrote: »
    I am also aware that we have a verbal contract, I was wondering if it is possible since the actual rental period hasn't started yet.

    Did you view the property before you agreed to rent it?

    It may not be to everyone's liking but if access to communal washing and drying facilities is provided, then that may meet the minimum requirements. But it is something that most would check out at viewing.


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    #11
    pc7
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 14,121 Mod ✭✭✭✭pc7


    How long ago did you agree to take it? Landlord could be down a months rent after waiting on you. I'd contact them right away to discuss it. Depending on the area/location etc. they could probably have a new tenant by tomorrow but may not return your 1/2 deposit due to potential losses. Not sure of the legalities but as a landlord if I'd held a place for a few weeks on the proviso you were moving in and we'd an agreement I would personally charge you for the re advertisement and then if rented quickly would return your 1/2.


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    #12
    Tigerbalm1
    Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭Tigerbalm1


    pc7 wrote: »
    How long ago did you agree to take it? Landlord could be down a months rent after waiting on you. I'd contact them right away to discuss it. Depending on the area/location etc. they could probably have a new tenant by tomorrow but may not return your 1/2 deposit due to potential losses. Not sure of the legalities but as a landlord if I'd held a place for a few weeks on the proviso you were moving in and we'd an agreement I would personally charge you for the re advertisement and then if rented quickly would return your 1/2.

    Only since Monday so not a long time period.


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    #13
    pc7
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 14,121 Mod ✭✭✭✭pc7


    Tigerbalm1 wrote: »
    Only since Monday so not a long time period.

    Well I'd ring now and talk to them.


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    #14
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,238 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    davo10 wrote: »
    Again, I am sorry, but this is factually incorrect. Though a written lease is preferable, the tenant can enter into a binding verbal contract, agreed when he/she handed over the part deposit. And in the absence of any wrong doing such as inaccurate advertising, or failure of the LL to provide required facilities, this would be considered a change of mind in the SCC.

    Contracts for the sale of land or any interest therin must be in writing per the Statute of Frauds (ireland) Act 1695. The handing over of money is not an act of part performance entitling the landlord to claim a lease has been entered into. If there was to be a written contract signed it is inconsistent with the imlication of a prior oral agreement. This was decided in the High Court case PHILIP M. HOWLIN
    .v. THOMAS F. POWER (DUBLIN) LIMITED
    Judgment McWilliam J. delivered the 5th May.1978


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    #15
    athtrasna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    This is not the legal discussion forum


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    #16
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    Contracts for the sale of land or any interest therin must be in writing per the Statute of Frauds (ireland) Act 1695. The handing over of money is not an act of part performance entitling the landlord to claim a lease has been entered into. If there was to be a written contract signed it is inconsistent with the imlication of a prior oral agreement. This was decided in the High Court case PHILIP M. HOWLIN
    .v. THOMAS F. POWER (DUBLIN) LIMITED
    Judgment McWilliam J. delivered the 5th May.1978

    Doesn't that case relate to a commercial tenancy rather than a residential? Two very different tenancy agreements and legal requirements.

    While I accept Citizensadvice website is not infallible, they do tend to get the main points right, also this isn't a sale, it's a tenancy agreement.

    From their page on residential tenancies:security of tenure:

    Introduction:

    When you rent your home from a private landlord, you have an agreement or contract with that person, known as a tenancy agreement – which may or may not be in writing. The most common types of tenancy are fixed-term tenancies and periodic tenancies – both described in more detail below.


    Or, if you want a legal opinion, read the first couple of lines of the introduction on this:

    http://www.flac.ie/download/pdf/landlord_tenant.pdf


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    #17
    Baby01032012
    Registered Users Posts: 1,622 ✭✭✭Baby01032012


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    Contracts for the sale of land or any interest therin must be in writing per the Statute of Frauds (ireland) Act 1695. The handing over of money is not an act of part performance entitling the landlord to claim a lease has been entered into. If there was to be a written contract signed it is inconsistent with the imlication of a prior oral agreement. This was decided in the High Court case PHILIP M. HOWLIN
    .v. THOMAS F. POWER (DUBLIN) LIMITED
    Judgment McWilliam J. delivered the 5th May.1978

    You must have responded to the wrong thread and forum in error. No one mentioned sale of land. This is a residential tenancy within the meaning of the Residental Tenancies Act 2004, Amended 2015


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    #18
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Baby01032012 wrote: »
    You must have responded to the wrong thread and forum in error. No one mentioned sale of land. This is a residential tenancy within the meaning of the Residental Tenancies Act 2004, Amended 2015

    The RTB refuse to deal with deposit refund claims in cases such as this on the basis that a tenancy has not come into being. maybe you should tell the RTB about your views on the subject.


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    #19
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    The RTB refuse to deal with deposit refund claims in cases such as this on the basis that a tenancy has not come into being. maybe you should tell the RTB about your views on the subject.

    Maybe you should consider the difference between the RTB and the reference to Residential Tenancy Act, one is a piece of legislation, the other is a Board.


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    #20
    Baby01032012
    Registered Users Posts: 1,622 ✭✭✭Baby01032012


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    The RTB refuse to deal with deposit refund claims in cases such as this on the basis that a tenancy has not come into being. maybe you should tell the RTB about your views on the subject.

    I meant the discussion is in relation to residential tenancies, I wasn't claiming it was.

    To get back on topic OP, have a chat with landlord as quickly as possible ( you verbally agreed on Monday and handed over deposit) to mitigate the damage, rather than get into legalities on tenancies or minimum standards of accommodation here.


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    #21
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    davo10 wrote: »
    Maybe you should consider the difference between the RTB and the reference to Residential Tenancy Act, one is a piece of legislation, the other is a Board.

    Of what significance is that suggestion? Are you saying that the RTB doesn't know the law it applies?


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    #22
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 17,075 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    4ensic15 wrote:
    If you haven't signed the lease you are entitled to you deposit back.

    This is not true
    Tigerbalm1 wrote:
    I am also aware that we have a verbal contract, I was wondering if it is possible since the actual rental period hasn't started yet.

    You paid the deposit so the landlord will hold the property till tomorrow. From what you are saying the landlord is keeping their side of the bargain. If you want to break your side of the bargain then landlord doesn't have to refund.
    There's no harm in asking for a refund but I wouldn't hold my breath


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    #23
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,238 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Baby01032012 wrote: »
    You must have responded to the wrong thread and forum in error. No one mentioned sale of land. This is a residential tenancy within the meaning of the Residental Tenancies Act 2004, Amended 2015

    A lease is an interest in land. The Statute covers the sale of land or any interest therein. No tenancy has yet commenced and is therefore outside of the Residential Tenancies Act (as amended).


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