Do married fathers envy or pity childless single men and vice versa?

smacl

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intheclouds wrote: »

Totally, but you might feel that way anyway even if you had people minding you!!

Could well be, better get that stash organised When my father died he was pretty sick to the extent that keeping ticking over in all probability required a fair conscious effort, and I'd say he more or less decided to call it a day. My mother in-law is a feisty old bird, and while she's on a load of meds, she enjoys life and will doubtless squeeze the last drop out of it, living alone but with visits by my wife 2-4 times most weeks. I guess some kind of sheltered accommodation could be fine with regular visits but most of what I've seen is pretty grim.

Old age aside, the kids are a blast at this point, and have been pretty much from the time that nappies, Barney and Tellytubbies got replaced with Futurama, Doctor Who, rock pooling, and Super Mario.

ThinkProgress

When married fathers (or fathers that aren't married too) look at me, I can feel a very deep sense of envy pouring out of their souls...

The moment they look at me, you can see in their eyes that they are looking at the man they wish they could be... but know they never can be!

I know this sounds very cocky and arrogant... but it's the truth - and I am very perceptive at seeing these signs!

It gets to the point I almost do pity them... even though I know the question of this thread was directed towards their pity for me! lol

Part of me wants to show them the light... but alas I know it's too late for many of them. And I'm also aware that not everyone can/should live such an incredibly fulfilling and satisfying life. This world needs people willing (or deluded enough) to devote the best years of their lives to raising other human beings and all the crazy lunacy that accompanies that particular choice...

Most days I sleep very sound however, despite feeling very sad for many of these people. The main reason for this, is because I am convinced that they truly do not comprehend the alternate life that they turned their backs on... so in a sense, they are not really missing out. (from their perspective) So I take a great deal of solace from that piece of knowledge!

How can I be so sure of this fact? It's very simple, nobody would turn down MY existence if they truly understood what they were rejecting! (No sane person anyway!) :P

I love children btw - just in case anyone is wondering - but that's hardly the point really. It's not about liking or disliking children... It's about what lifestyle you want to have! (That is an important point to clarify, I feel)

Peace brothers!

Carlos Orange

Whenever married men talk about being married there isn't much that sells the idea to me but their lives are about doing what floats their boat not what floats mine.

rickis tache

Married 6 years with 2 kids under 4. Have 2 great friends with no kids (medical reasons) and feel so sad that they can't experience the love that can only be felt by us ( not being smart). Both friends have an active life with plenty of soctal outings that in honesty do make me slightly jealous but I wouldn't swap.......Maybe for a weekend.

Boom_Bap

rickis tache wrote: »

Married 6 years with 2 kids under 4. Have 2 great friends with no kids (medical reasons) and feel so sad that they can't experience the love that can only be felt by us ( not being smart). Both friends have an active life with plenty of soctal outings that in honesty do make me slightly jealous but I wouldn't swap.......Maybe for a weekend.

That's one of the great things I find anyway as being a father. That weekend away that you have organised. It feels like a reward as well as some 'me' time and you get some of the essence of what the OP likes as being a single man.

It feels good for a bit but then coming home is always another reward as well.

I don't look at this as being a negative of being in a relationship and having kids at all.

Wibbs

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

thats an unanswerable question as it entirely depends on the individual

Pretty much this. Some, most? people want kids and many will and do make great parents. Others don't and many of those wouldn't make great parents. I know I wouldn't. I'm just not particularly kid focused at all. I find them a bit tiresome if I'm honest. Fine at a distance and with a limited timeframe. If I had lived in an age where it was the given I doubt any kids I had would be too grateful.

smacl

Wibbs wrote: »

Pretty much this. Some, most? people want kids and many will and do make great parents. Others don't and many of those wouldn't make great parents. I know I wouldn't. I'm just not particularly kid focused at all. I find them a bit tiresome if I'm honest. Fine at a distance and with a limited timeframe. If I had lived in an age where it was the given I doubt any kids I had would be too grateful.

Its not like the world is going to run out of people any time soon, so not having kids unless you really want them could be considered the more socially responsible attitude in many ways. Before I had kids I would have been as happy without, now I've got them they're fantastic but the notion that people should have kids is a throwback from the 'go forth and multiply' days with lots of manual labour and low life expectancy. Those days are gone.

helimachoptor

my wife normally goes to see her family for a week a month (out west) so i do 3 weeks of dad stuff and then get a few days off, best of both worlds.

However as time goes on (27 month old and 9 month old) I like my "free time" less and less tbh, with work etc i'd prefer to see them more and i basically lose 1 weekend a month with them

Deep Thought

I became a Dad at 45...My son is 5 now.

Before I became a Dad, I did as I wanted, went out, stayed in Bed, went away when ever we wanted.

I think there is a difference in being childless and not wanting children.

But I always felt that I wanted to be a dad, and thankfully that happened.

When I look back , I wonder what I did with my time,

Do I envy or pity childless or single men?? Pity no, would i love more me time yes, but I would not change a thing.

My son is amazing and to think how he came to be and wonder about what he is yet to be is what I do now.

My wife and I take time out and We go off for a weekend, sometimes each on our own and sometimes with our son ( we take turns), so we both get a chance at being without our child for a while.

DT

zephyro

Good question OP, pity isn't the right word but whenever I've tried to roughly quantify the amount of time, work (direct + indirect) and money required to raise children versus what you get in return, I'm unable to understand how any rational person in the 1st world could decide that it's a good idea.

Wibbs

Deep Thought wrote: »

I think there is a difference in being childless and not wanting children.

Nailed it there DT. A major difference going on IMH. I would further suspect that there are far more in the former group than the latter. Oddballs like me would be in the minority. For obvious biological "selfish gene" and totally natural reasons if nothing else.

But I always felt that I wanted to be a dad, and thankfully that happened.

Well then congrats Sir. Good to hear and glad to hear you're loving it.

zephyro wrote:

I'm unable to understand how any rational person in the 1st world could decide that it's a good idea.

"Rational" isn't the be all and end all. For a start one man's rational is another's "are you mad?".

Pawwed Rig

zephyro wrote: »

Good question OP, pity isn't the right word but whenever I've tried to roughly quantify the amount of time, work (direct + indirect) and money required to raise children versus what you get in return, I'm unable to understand how any rational person in the 1st world could decide that it's a good idea.

What you get back is worth far more than the costs.

Wibbs

+1. Humans aren't some credit/debit balance sheet, nor shouldn't be regarded as such.

zephyro

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

What you get back is worth far more than the costs.

And what would you say that you get back?

Pawwed Rig

zephyro wrote: »

And what would you say that you get back?

Happiness

fenris

I am a 47 year old widower with two kids so I possibly have a slightly different perspective in that I have done the single - married - single with kids cycle.
Married with the right person beats single hands down any day of the week, you grow together into a unit, kids add to that and give purpose that you didn't realise was missing and you begin to become "settled", what that actually means is that you have found a level of happiness and contentment that doesn't need the pub or outside contact as much and you start to view a lot of single life activity as a bit of a fun distraction rather than the main purpose and are happy to get back to a home that you are happy in.
Ending up single again this time with kids and actually knowing how good a good relationship is, gives me a view of how good it can be.
When I lost my wife, the only thing that kept me going were the kids and some good friends (including some great boardsies).
Kids give you a level of external responsibility and accountability that makes you grow up and engage with the world in a less selfish manner, they annoy the hell out of you sometimes while preventing you from becoming stuck in your ways by making you question the world and actively engage in life.
So from my perspective, a relationship and kids when you are ready are the way to go, it rounds you out as a person and opens up a whole new dimension to life.

orubiru

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Happiness

What is "Happiness" though?

How is it measured?

If I am going to commit the time and effort to raising a child and supporting them the I'd kind of want to be sure that the single guy next door isn't getting the same amount of happiness when his pizza is delivered and he starts his 8 hour Playstation session.

If I am eating my pizza and playing my Playstation I'd want to be sure that I am not missing out on some even higher plane of happiness that can only be achieved through becoming a married father.

Would it be fair to suggest that if someone has invested time and effort into a marriage or raising a child then it is highly unlikely they'd be willing to declare that it was an unsatisfactory waste of time?

It's probably easier for the married guy to look at the single guy and think "he's missing out" because the alternative seems like a pretty clear path to feeling like you wasted your entire life.

It's probably easier for the single guy to look at the married guy and think "he has no freedom" because the alternative means admitting that you've missed out on the best life has to offer.

So folks will often use "happiness" as a measuring stick but I'm not really sure exactly HOW it's measured?

smacl

orubiru wrote: »

It's probably easier for the married guy to look at the single guy and think "he's missing out" because the alternative seems like a pretty clear path to feeling like you wasted your entire life.

It's probably easier for the single guy to look at the married guy and think "he has no freedom" because the alternative means admitting that you've missed out on the best life has to offer.

False dichotomy as you've missed out on a couple of cases there, e.g. what about the married or unmarried couples with no kids for example? Myself and the OH were together for ten years before having kids and did a lot of exploring the world, partying, and living the child free life. Great craic, and I spent the first couple of years of parenthood thinking wtf have I done? Now with the kids getting that bit older, We've most of the freedom back again with a couple of great kids in tow. If you're into kids, go for it, if not, don't. Simples.

So folks will often use "happiness" as a measuring stick but I'm not really sure exactly HOW it's measured?

Not sure why you'd want to compare your happiness relative to other people's. If you're not already happy, unless you've a burning desire to have kids, having them isn't necessarily going to make you any happier and could make you totally miserable as well as broke. I suppose one measure you could use is what makes you happy? For me that includes quite a number of activities with the kids ranging from Super Mario to rock pooling, fishing, dancing in the kitchen, reading the hobbit, hiking, cooking, making home brew, etc, etc... Great to do all the childish fun stuff all over again with the kids and they really do love you for it. Face painting and fireworks this weekend with a bunch of extra young teens staying over, quite looking forward to it.

silverharp

orubiru wrote: »

What is "Happiness" though?

How is it measured?

If I am going to commit the time and effort to raising a child and supporting them the I'd kind of want to be sure that the single guy next door isn't getting the same amount of happiness when his pizza is delivered and he starts his 8 hour Playstation session.

If I am eating my pizza and playing my Playstation I'd want to be sure that I am not missing out on some even higher plane of happiness that can only be achieved through becoming a married father.

Would it be fair to suggest that if someone has invested time and effort into a marriage or raising a child then it is highly unlikely they'd be willing to declare that it was an unsatisfactory waste of time?

It's probably easier for the married guy to look at the single guy and think "he's missing out" because the alternative seems like a pretty clear path to feeling like you wasted your entire life.

It's probably easier for the single guy to look at the married guy and think "he has no freedom" because the alternative means admitting that you've missed out on the best life has to offer.

So folks will often use "happiness" as a measuring stick but I'm not really sure exactly HOW it's measured?

maybe happiness is too general. When I became a dad I suddenly had an awesome responsibility and while maybe our mammalian brain pumps us full of happy hormones in such a situation we are geared to want to be needed or to be involved in something beyond organising nice food deliveries.

orubiru

smacl wrote: »

False dichotomy as you've missed out on a couple of cases there, e.g. what about the married or unmarried couples with no kids for example? Myself and the OH were together for ten years before having kids and did a lot of exploring the world, partying, and living the child free life. Great craic, and I spent the first couple of years of parenthood thinking wtf have I done? Now with the kids getting that bit older, We've most of the freedom back again with a couple of great kids in tow. If you're into kids, go for it, if not, don't. Simples.



Not sure why you'd want to compare your happiness relative to other people's. If you're not already happy, unless you've a burning desire to have kids, having them isn't necessarily going to make you any happier and could make you totally miserable as well as broke. I suppose one measure you could use is what makes you happy? For me that includes quite a number of activities with the kids ranging from Super Mario to rock pooling, fishing, dancing in the kitchen, reading the hobbit, hiking, cooking, making home brew, etc, etc... Great to do all the childish fun stuff all over again with the kids and they really do love you for it. Face painting and fireworks this weekend with a bunch of extra young teens staying over, quite looking forward to it.

I wasn't saying one side or the other is correct here.

I'm just questioning whether happiness is a valid metric of measurement for saying one life choice is better than another.

intheclouds

How do you even know what happiness is? Too subjective imo.

kunst nugget

intheclouds wrote: »

How do you even know what happiness is? Too subjective imo.

And what is love? Baby, don't hurt me, don't hurt me no more

smacl

orubiru wrote: »

I wasn't saying one side or the other is correct here.

Nor me, it all comes down to the individual, there is no right or wrong.

I'm just questioning whether happiness is a valid metric of measurement for saying one life choice is better than another.

"Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" as the yanks would have it seems like a pretty reasonable aspiration from where I'm sitting. Though being happy is very different from being content, and sometimes happiness comes from achieving something that involves a lot of effort. Doesn't necessarily involve kids, could be climbing a mountain, curing a disease or writing a book. I don't think anyone is happy all the time either, life invariably has its ups and downs.

intheclouds

kunst nugget wrote: »

And what is love? Baby, don't hurt me, don't hurt me no more

What is hurt? Perhaps my hurt is your happiness and my love is your hurt.

05eaftqbrs9jlh

Myself and my husband aren't really too interested in having children. Are two more of us really what the world needs? A gigantic cull of humans is more my preference. I also sympathise with parents because mostly they seem crap at raising children, hate it and have no free time. I'm a primary school teacher and I love being around children, but I also like being able to return them and being myself again. Also the world is just terrible, I'm going to have to make a lot of compromises to be willing to bring another person into it.

kunst nugget

Aldo Quaint Snub-nosed wrote: »

I'm a primary school teacher…

'Okay, class. Settle down now. Today's lesson is 'You are all nothing but a shítstain on Mother Earth and deserve to die!'

smacl

kunst nugget wrote: »

And what is love? Baby, don't hurt me, don't hurt me no more

Cheers, can't get the effing tune out of my head now.... :P

silverharp

Aldo Quaint Snub-nosed wrote: »

Myself and my husband aren't really too interested in having children. Are two more of us really what the world needs? A gigantic cull of humans is more my preference. I also sympathise with parents because mostly they seem crap at raising children, hate it and have no free time. I'm a primary school teacher and I love being around children, but I also like being able to return them and being myself again. Also the world is just terrible, I'm going to have to make a lot of compromises to be willing to bring another person into it.

I always thought people that used "the world is terrible" argument were angst ridden teenagers. relax and chill Ireland isn't Somalia. If my kids teachers are anything to go by, the childless ones are a bit daft. :pac:

Fian

happily married with four kids.

We married young and kids came along just over a year later - so we were parents in our mid twenties. Then we had 4 in quick succession, so the fourth arrived before we turned 30.

Certainly there were times during that exhausting period when I really envied some of our friends who were still single, going out at night and having fun. Especially since we were struggling with sleep deprivation. We never left them with a babysitter to this day, occasionally left them with siblings/parents when we went to a wedding or something. But our social life disappeared entirely.

Now the eldest has turned 17, youngest will soon also be a teenager. Life is our own again now, we can go out to eat without needing a babysitter if we want to, though tbh we are out of the habit and funding four teenagers means we have better focuses for disposable income anyway.

Have never pitied single/childless friends other than a small few who I know really wanted to have kids or find a partner. Did envy them at one point, don't at all now. Most of those I envied in the past probably now envy us that our kids are that bit more independent.

Only thing we did miss out on is that we have never done the backpacking around the world thing, we settled down too young for that. Would have loved to travel asia/south america with my wife when we were younger. I suppose there is no reason why we can't do so in a few years when the kids are older still.

Zillah

I have three nephews, I love them, I like spending time with them. They're getting to an age where they miss me and appreciate the time I spend with them. All that said, though, the idea that I couldn't just toss them back towards their parents when I'm sick of them; of being solely responsible for them all the time is utterly horrifying to me. I love my free time, I love my independence, I cherish my alone time. I stay up late when possible, I always have a lie in when work doesn't force me out of bed. I like nice things, I like my home being for adults; being tidy. The absolute chaos that reigns morning, noon, and night when I stay with them erodes something inside me; something I think would break fairly quickly if it was my every day.

If I end up an old man with no one to look after me then so be it; because I know now and I'll know then that having children would have been far too high a price to pay.

Obviously not everyone feels that way; I can accept that, but it is not for me. I feel like laughing hysterically when someone smugly tells me I'll change my mind. I know my own mind, I most certainly will not.

As for people with kids? Someone of them seem to love it, despite the price they have to pay - what's to pity there? I have seen some people who seem to deeply resent their lifestyle and their obligations, and I pity them a very great deal: what an awful obligation to inflict on yourself for so long.